Graf Zeppelin is an insult to paying customers

[ShuggieHamster]

28 minutes ago, Ishiro32 said:

Saying that at least Fara understand this class deeply... this isn't something I can say about WG devs with conviction.

 

thats all I'd ever ask of a game dev - understand what the thing in the game does

 

... but TY for the info. mid tier scrub like me doesnt always have all (or much) of the overall picture. nice to see behind the curtain occasionally

[mtm78]

I'd recommend watching Fara stream, strangers also streams from time to time but he plays more of everything while fara is a real cv main. I know one of them has already spend a lot of time explaining CV mechanics to someone like me who doesn't even play them really atm, and I know it has made it easier for me to deal with them in other ships let alone how much it would help if I actually would ever start really playing them.

 

 

[Jethro_Grey]

Why does the Fara has so few views/ subs?

Not only is he spot on with his review about the GZ, he is able to explain his thought process quite well.

I learned more about CV gameplay in 40minutes while watching 2 of his vids, then in playing them.

[Admiral_noodle]

I'm subscribed to him now for when and if I play cv. Will need a UI improvement first tho 

[Reisen__]

i like how everyone has basically A) gone to bed or b) couldn't care agruing with a WG eu mods anymore

[Widar_Thule]

A focus on dive bombers for GRAF ZEPPELIN is totally unauthentic by 1943 making clear that WOWS developers have NOT done their homework on GRAF ZEPPELIN, since the actual command decisions of both the German Navy Commander in Chief and the German Armed Forces Commander in Chief categorically stated that torpedo bombers were THE main armament of the GRAF ZEPPELIN. By 1943 the days of the dive bomber were coming to an end and especially so concerning doing critical damage to capital ships. This was quite clear in the German military in 1942.

 

The WOWS GRAF ZEPPELIN has the ship itself in a 1943 configuration and the air component of the ship in a 1939 configuration. This is totally unauthentic and plain wrong and makes clear they did their homework on the ship very poorly. There is NO NEED for FANTASY Air Component setups for GRAF ZEPPELIN since we have the data on what she would have had in 1943, which had long since been decided, ordered, planned and was being designed and constructed from 1942 onwards.

 

There were two moments in time where GRAF ZEPPELIN was to have been commissioned:

 

- Commission date number one: 13 March 1940. This did not happen because Grand Admiral Raeder the Commander in Chief of the German Navy on 02 October 1939 ordered completion of GRAF ZEPPELIN to halt even though she was 85% complete. She was to work up (=train) her crew for about a year and would be ready for operations within 12 months, so in March 1941 at the latest. In 1940-1941 GRAF ZEPPELIN was planned and ordered to have Ju 87 C dive bombers, Me 109 T fighters and arguably maybe Fi 167 multi-purpose aircraft (to be used as a torpedo bomber, reconnaissance aircraft and smoke laying aircraft). The Gernan Navy liked the Fi 167 but the German Air Force seems to have preferred a multi-purpose version of the Ju 87 C instead as the more modern and capable aircraft.

 

- Commission date number two: 1 April 1943. This did not happen because Raeder's successor Grand Admiral Dönitz on 02 February 1943 ordered completion of GRAF ZEPPELIN to halt even though she was by then 95% complete. Hitler ordered on 13 May 1942 that GRAF ZEPPELIN was to be completed but Raeder did not actually let work on the ship start again until 05 December 1942. Completion of GRAF ZEPPELIN had started again on 05 December 1942 and lasted until 02 February 1943 by which time it was clear that she would be completed on 1 April 1943 at the latest. She was to work up (=train) her crew from April 1943 till the end of 1943 and would be ready for operations at the end of 1943 at the earliest and the Spring of 1944 at the latest. In 1942 it was planned and ordered that GRAF ZEPPELIN in 1943 was to have 54x Junkers Ju 87 E Mehrzweckflugzeuge (Multi-Purpose-Aircraft) and 39x Me 155 A Jagdflugzeuge (Fighter-Aircraft).

 

In September 1939 when GRAF ZEPPELIN was about 85 % complete her "Carrier-Wing 186" (Trägergeschwader 186, TG 186 for short) was already fully formed consisting of one "Carrier-Group" (I. Trägergruppe/186 T) with 3x dive bomber squadrons, and one "Carrier-Group" (II. Trägergruppe/186 T) with 3x fighter squadrons, on 1 October 1939 the "Carrier-Wing 186" had:

- 39 x Junkers Ju 87 B-1, C-0, C-1 Sturzkampfflugzeuge (Stuka, Dive-Combat-Aircraft)

- 39 x Messerschmitt Me 109 E-3, E-4, T-0, T-1 Jagdflugzeuge (Fighter-Aircraft)

 

However by 1942 these aircraft types had become obsolete and the GRAF ZEPPELIN was to be equipped differently when she was to be commissioned in 1943. In fact in 1942 the German Air Force categorically stated that they REFUSED to build the 1939-era Fieseler Fi 167, Messerschmitt Me 109 T and Junkers Ju 87 C Carrier Aircraft because they were too outdated by 1942. The German Air Force was in charge of aircraft design, production and the establishment of military aircraft units. The GRAF ZEPPELIN belonged to the German War Navy but her aircraft to the German Air Force, so as far as GRAF ZEPPELIN aircraft were concerned the German Air Force had the final word.

 

The head of the German War Navy (Erich Raeder) and the German President and Prime Minister who was also Commander in Chief of the Armed Forces (Adolf Hitler) had both determined and actually ORDERED in 1942 that the main armament of the GRAF ZEPPELIN would be torpedo bombers when GRAF  ZEPPELIN was scheduled to be commissioned in April 1943. The new Mehrzweckflugzeug (Multi-Purpose-Aircraft) Ju 87 E was the naval version of the Ju 87 D-5 and it would perform four roles for GRAF ZEPPELIN: (long range) reconnaissance, torpedo bombing, dive bombing and smoke laying (with a special smoke laying device system). In fact in two meetings in early 1942 both Raeder and Hitler categorically stated that the GRAF ZEPPELIN would be USELESS without torpedo bombers and so as a result the German Air Force in 1942 created and thoroughly tested a torpedo system for the Ju 87 D-5 for use on both the German Aircraft Carriers and for land based anti-shipping Ju-87 torpedo bombers.

 

The actual air component that both the German Navy (Kriegsmarine) and German Air Force really ORDERED in 1942 for the GRAF ZEPPELIN to be equipped with in 1943:

- 54x Junkers Ju 87 (they were to be naval versions of the Ju 87 D-5 and this version was called Ju 87 E)

- 39x Messerschmitt Me 109 (they were to be naval versions of the Me 109 G-6 and this version went through several name changes in 1942 such as Me 109 ST, Me 409 and finally Me 155 A. The Me 155 A is not to be confused with the high altitude fighter Me 155 B and the high altitude fighter BV 155 which were totally unrelated and different aircraft designs).

 

So in 1942 a total of 93 aircraft were planned and ordered for the GRAF ZEPPELIN which she would have had been equipped with in 1943. The 54x Junkers Ju 87 E Mehrzweckflugzeuge (Multi-Purpose-Aircraft) were to be organized in 4x Mehrzweckstaffel (Multi-Purpose-Squadrons) and the 39x Me 155 A Jagdflugzeuge (Fighter-Aircraft) were to be organized in 3x Jagdstaffel (Fighter-Squadrons). In July 1942 the German Air Force scheduled the total production up till 1943 for the Ju 87 E and Me 155 A to be 220 aircraft, which included aircraft for training and reserve units as well as for four Auxiliary Aircraft Carriers (Hilfsflugzeugträger).

 

That data comes from the "Seekriegsleitung" War Diary (the Skl, Sea War Command, headed by the Commander in Chief of the German Navy, Grand Admiral Raeder) and from the archives of the Reichsluftfahrtministerium (the RLM, the Reich Air Ministry which was in charge of all German aircraft design, production as well as the setup of the air component of GRAF ZEPPELIN).

 

Having 93 aircraft for GRAF ZEPPELIN makes perfect sense when you look at the two Hanger Decks of GRAF ZEPPELIN.

 

The GRAF ZEPPELIN was by any standards a very large Aircraft Carrier (262.5 meters long, 31.5 meters wide, displacement of 33,550 tons). In fact GRAF ZEPPELIN was easily the largest purpose designed and built aircraft carrier in the world up till 1942 and arguably even up till the end of the war in 1945. The LEXINGTON, SARATOGA, AKAGI and KAGA were also very large Aircraft Carriers, but they were not purpose designed and built as Aircraft Carriers like GRAF ZEPPELIN was, instead they were converted Battle Cruisers except for KAGA which was a converted Battleship.

 

The 33.550 tons GRAF ZEPPELIN had two Hanger Decks with these dimensions:

-          Upper Hanger Deck: about 6.5 meters high, about 15.5 meters wide, about 185 meters long.

-          Lower Hanger Deck: about 6.5 meters high, about 15.5 meters wide, about 170 meters long.

Note: Some sources state a width of 16 meters for the Upper and Lower Hanger Deck and a length of 172 meters for the Lower Hanger Deck.

Taking the most conservative figures that gives the following minimum square meters of Hanger Deck space for GRAF ZEPPELIN:

-          Upper Hanger Deck: 15.5 meters width x 185 meters long = 2876.5 square meters

-          Lower Hanger Deck: 15.5 meters width x 170 meters long =  2638 square meters

 

In total GRAF ZEPPELIN had a minimum of 5515 square meters of Hanger Deck space divided over two Hanger Decks.

 

To put this into perspective:

 

LEXINGTON when built in 1927 had these Hanger Deck dimensions:

-          Hanger Deck: minimum height about 6.4 meters high, about 20.7 meters wide, about 129.2 meters long.

That gives LEXINGTON the following minimum square meters of Hanger Deck space:

- Hanger Deck: 20.7 meters width x 129.2 meters long = 2674.44 square meters

 

The YORKTOWN-class USA Aircraft Carriers when built in 1937 had these Hanger Deck dimensions:

-          Hanger Deck: minimum height about 5.25 meters high, about 19.2 meters wide, about 166.42 meters long.

That gives the YORKTOWN-class the following minimum square meters of Hanger Deck space:

-          Hanger Deck: 19.2 meters width x 166.42 meters long = 3195.26 square meters.

 

So:

- LEXINGTON and SARATOGA (36,000 tons each, both being the largest USA WW2 Carriers) had only 2674 square meters of hanger deck space and one single Hanger Deck.

- ENTERPRISE (25,500 tons, one of three YORKTOWN Class Carriers) had only 3195 square meters of hanger deck space and only one single Hanger Deck.

 

In other words GRAF ZEPPELIN had more than DOUBLE the hanger space of LEXINGTON and SARATOGA. And ENTERPRISE (YORKTOWN Class) had only 58% of the Hanger Deck space of GRAF ZEPPELIN.

 

Source for all this: THE MUST READ and BEST single source professional "all-aspects study" 1994 book on GRAF ZEPPELIN, written by the former Fregattenkapitän and authoritative expert naval author ULRICH ISRAEL. Unfortunately the book is only available in German but there is NO single other source which comes close to studying all GRAF ZEPPELIN related primary source design, development and actual command decision documentation which even goes so far to include contact with the designers of the ship and with the Air Force Aviators of the fully formed "Carrier-Wing 186" which was fully established and trained for GRAF ZEPPELIN in 1939.

 

From the way Wargaming implemented the GRAF ZEPPELIN it becomes clear that they very BADLY did their homework on this ship and they are almost totally clueless on the actual technical peculiarities, design, command decisions, capabilities, equipment state, various planned aircraft load outs of the ship from 1935 to 1943. The GRAF ZEPPELIN incorporated many technical novelties which were not introduced in British and USA Carriers until well after WW2 (such as compressed air catapults).

 

When you implement ships like IZUMO or MONTANA in WOWS you do not put 30 cm guns  on them because that would be unauthentic. That holds true for GRAF ZEPPELIN as well, in 1943 she would have had naval versions of the Me 109 G-6 (called Me 155 A) and the Ju 87 D-5 (called Ju 87 E). The Me 109 T and Ju 87 C were 1939-era aircraft which would NEVER had been used from 1943 onwards on GRAF ZEPPELIN as is quite clear from all command decision taken in 1942 by the Commanders in Chief of the German Armed Forces, the German War Navy and the German Air Force. And it is equally clear from the documentation study of ULRICH ISRAEL that torpedo bombers would be the MAIN ARMAMENT versus ships for GRAF ZEPPELIN in 1943.

 

WOWS and Ulrich Israel's GRAF ZEPPELIN study

It is safe to assume that the WOWS developers have access to the German OKM archival material which was purloined by the USSR in 1945 and copied and studied by them well into the 1950s. It is therefore safe to assume that the German OKM archival material is used by WOWS developers to construct the 3-D models of German warships in WOWS. The blueprints of those German ships only contain part of the history of these ships however and in the case of GRAF ZEPPELIN the composition of the Air Component of the ship is something which cannot be readily determined from studying Blue Prints. And that is where the book by Ulrich Israel becomes a key source since it contains many details on that aspect. As a result the data in Ulrich Israel's book is a must consult source for anyone interested in GRAF ZEPPELIN and it should also be for WOWS developers who are trying to represent the ship in WOWS.

 

As such I advise the WOWS developers to GET A COPY OF THE BOOK "Flugzeugträger Graf Zeppelin" by "Ulrich H.J. Israel" and incorporate the data from that book into the WOWS GRAF ZEPPELIN in order to represent her in an AUTHENTIC manner. This is especially important because the WOWS GRAF ZEPPELIN could not be farther removed from what the real GRAF ZEPPELIN would have been capable of and equipped with in 1943.

 

[Smeggo]

Wow.

 

Quote

Hello iChaseGaming,

After being pulled into a Global Email about your video and one other, I have come to the conclusion that being a part of the Global Contributor Program may not be the best place for your brand. I do not want to control your content, but as a Member of the Global Contributor Program, saying things such as,

"The Developer who decided this was a good idea, needs to be [edited]fired."

and

"Which office did that...whomever it was needs to be demoted or fired."

Is not a quality we want to encourage. Also, encouraging players to send in support tickets only adds more work to our staff, not a quality we want to see in our GCC. We encourage players to give us honest, constructive feedback, but as a member of GCC, your additional comments of the company are going beyond constructive critism. I wish you the best of luck with your video content. If you have any questions, feel free to reach out.

 

All the best,

Brian Jakubson

MeatheadMilitia

 

[Capra76]

4 minutes ago, Smeggo said:

Wow.

 

 

 

Wow.

[Grif]

5 minutes ago, Smeggo said:

Wow.

 

 

There goes the entire CC program, sounds like not just him either (about your video and one other,). You would think plenty more will resign too.

[HectorBarbossa]

[tenshox]

Spot on review, I agree:

 

 

Very funny Brian Jakubsen, this is one of the biggest Clown Fiestas so far.

 

[Gelb13]

I had a nice evening lined up trying to knock out 200% daily doubles but this entire debacle/indictment of the Graf and WG has definitely sidetracked that...

 

Edit: Chase loses his CC tags, understandable from WG's point...

But please think on what it takes for someone who religiously plays this game and creates content for it to call out the hand that feeds him in such a way...

[Dlia_Katyushi]

Is it me or is WG turning into EA and Ubisoft, at light speed? They are lucky no one had sued them yet, and this may have been possible if the Crab Baloon had been released on all servers.

[Aragathor]

Welp, Fochgate was small potatoes compared to what is happening. Wargaming actively destroys their contributor program by kicking people out who tell everyone that the "emperor has no clothes".

They are doubling down on being really dumb about the whole issue, if they weren't a private company heads would roll by the dozen. But they aren't, so incompetence and mistreating their customers goes unpunished.

[d_Lynn]

Foch => Chrysler K GF Drama : World of Warship edition (extra salt DLC).

[Major_Damage225]

Did i just read right about iChase, this trumps all theyr previous "accidents", 

bravo... really.... congrats, a new milestone has been set....only one thing comes to mind.... "Light'em up boys" the show just got serious.

 

Mistakes happen ok, but this... no comment. 

[Tathris]

I see Wargaming continues to prove that they have absolutely no idea what they are doing.

[Dr__Bolle]

50 minutes ago, Smeggo said:

Hello iChaseGaming,

After being pulled into a Global Email about your video and one other, I have come to the conclusion that being a part of the Global Contributor Program may not be the best place for your brand. I do not want to control your content, but as a Member of the Global Contributor Program, saying things such as,

"The Developer who decided this was a good idea, needs to be [edited]fired."

and

"Which office did that...whomever it was needs to be demoted or fired."

Is not a quality we want to encourage. Also, encouraging players to send in support tickets only adds more work to our staff, not a quality we want to see in our GCC. We encourage players to give us honest, constructive feedback, but as a member of GCC, your additional comments of the company are going beyond constructive critism. I wish you the best of luck with your video content. If you have any questions, feel free to reach out.

 

All the best,

Brian Jakubson

MeatheadMilitia

 

This is ridiculous...

 

This is turning into the second great shitstorm "17

I cant, under any circumstances, understand these reactions from WG...

For me I can clearly understand iChases reaction.

 

Oh, btw, when someone is watching how WG is dealing with serious criticism, one can think that speaking with a wall is more constrcutive than with WG...

So Imo it is just an understandable reaction that follows

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

"People who live in glass houses should not throw stones."

[MadnerKami]

58 minutes ago, Smeggo said:

Wow.

 

Hello iChaseGaming,

After being pulled into a Global Email about your video and one other, I have come to the conclusion that being a part of the Global Contributor Program may not be the best place for your brand. I do not want to control your content, but as a Member of the Global Contributor Program, saying things such as,

"The Developer who decided this was a good idea, needs to be [edited]fired."

and

"Which office did that...whomever it was needs to be demoted or fired."

Is not a quality we want to encourage. Also, encouraging players to send in support tickets only adds more work to our staff, not a quality we want to see in our GCC. We encourage players to give us honest, constructive feedback, but as a member of GCC, your additional comments of the company are going beyond constructive critism. I wish you the best of luck with your video content. If you have any questions, feel free to reach out.

 

All the best,

Brian Jakubson

MeatheadMilitia

Citation needed, please.

[Tyrendian89]

ah WG, never fails to entertain... and during GamesCom as well for extra exposure... nice

[valrond]

2 hours ago, Jethro_Grey said:

Why does the Fara has so few views/ subs?

Not only is he spot on with his review about the GZ, he is able to explain his thought process quite well.

I learned more about CV gameplay in 40minutes while watching 2 of his vids, then in playing them.

Yep. You want to learn how to play CV, watch his videos. And then watch them again, and practice.

Great dude, put a lot of effort and time to make all those CV videos. He should be featured in WG.

[Nazgarth]

Two words: Rank Incompetence.

[Major_Damage225]

4 minutes ago, valrond said:

Yep. You want to learn how to play CV, watch his videos. And then watch them again, and practice.

Great dude, put a lot of effort and time to make all those CV videos. He should be featured in WG.

Subscribed, and am going to start finally... took me long enough lol. 

 

11 minutes ago, Tyrendian89 said:

ah WG, never fails to entertain... and during GamesCom as well for extra exposure... nice

 

Ohh they got all the exposure with this one. 

[valrond]

25 minutes ago, MadnerKami said:

Citation needed, please.

It's true

It seems this game is going down the drain fast.

[Zogash85]

Well, fudge me with a spork... WG is turning into a nuthouse!

 

It's like Foch-gate all over again.