Graf Zeppelin is an insult to paying customers

[IlCanta]

AP need skill???? you can't torp dd's and a cv's has to kill dd's...... pls rework ap bombs

[__Helmut_Kohl__]

Ok, so lets assume the manual AP mechanic was indeed just challenging and not based on luck/target behavior:

 

Why does such a challenging drop only really hurt German BBs again??? 

[mtm78]

Armor profile. 

 

[IlCanta]

idk i can say only this mechanic has no sense.......

[Horin728]

1 minute ago, Ofenkartoffel said:

Ok, so lets assume the manual AP mechanic was indeed just challenging and not based on luck/target behavior:

 

Why does such a challenging drop only really hurt German BBs again??? 

Precisely I might be ok with the 6 second travel time if I was guaranteed an epic damage if I lead that much correctly... Currently the AP bombs don't reward enough for the amount of work and skill you have to put into them.

[Fuchsgeist]

The only thing WG got historically correct about the GZ is that she is released incomplete 

With her release WG (at least EU management) has shown again they are NOT listing to the community because Supertesters and CCs have told them before the release that this setup and UI is bad 

[Blooddancer]

7 minutes ago, philjd said:

The NA's similar thread - started by Whitemouse - interesting read, especially her opening post.

 

https://forum.worldofwarships.com/topic/134780-premium-ship-review-graf-zeppelin/

 

Devastating feedback 

[Shirakami_Kon]

1 hour ago, Kandly said:

Like I said, we are not censoring anyone. This topic currently requires the usual amount of moderation, that's it.

 

Well, I must admit this is the first time I see three moderators at once to cover only one topic.

 

That said, my two cents on this is that I really expect WG to learn something about this finally, because WG has lost all of it's credibility for me. I'm not even a CV player, I'm not interested at all in CV, but I watched videos about how they play to know how to deal better with them since I main BBs and I know a CV is bad when CV players complain about it, but if someone like me clearly sees that the ships is utterly bad and laughs at what he/she sees something is really wrong.

 

I know WG has it's terms and even if no one looks at it every premium ship you purchase you agree with that the ship won't be refunded the second you press battle with one of them, but really, WG, do yourself a favor. Admit a mistake for once, more work on the ship while you force people to keep it it's not going to work. Give every GZ owner the refund they deserve and remove the ship from the accounts, do the rework necessary for the ship and them bring her back. If you do a good job people will rebuy it anyways. But the crap you sold to all the people before knowing what's going on just has one name. And it's "scam".

[ASharpPencil]

And with my SHOKAKU 2-2-2

[MadHunter1991]

3? i see 4

 

[mtm78]

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/169197956

 

Training room AP bomb tests are +- 40m into the vod. 

 

The AP bomb damage is not that bad ON GERMAN BB. Same drop he took 1/2 hp from Bismarck did 2k dmg to a Yamato. But he took 1/2 of Moskva and Edin, so the bombs damage potential isn't that bad ( considering that is single squad and you have 3 ). 

 

The issue isn't AP mechanic, it works for another CV right... that has good stats. The issue is the delay not being in sync with UI causing weird behavior or at least not intuitive behavior, and this change not being allowed to be reviewed before release? 

 

At least that is what I think Ishiro meant, as an AP mechanic discussion would just distract from this thread's purpose....

[Temeteus82]

After reading threads from NA and this forum. To me it seems like the both communities think that the ship was released too early. And we have no idea why it was released without CC and supertester feedback. And it looks odd that the EU CC's have been silent about this release. On the other hand I think that WG should hire someone to make sure that the different regions are on the same page. And the CC's and supertesters have they say about things. And this person is the only one that can hit the launch button.

[Kandly]

19 minutes ago, mtm78 said:

The post of mine which got entirely deleted had ZERO words, just two video's. One from Notser, one from iChase. 

??

I am saying things which are not true? I have screenshots if you want me to post them..... 

 

Ah, my bad! I looked back to your post and you're right, I initially read it as "WG why you removing negative video reviews from your own CC's?". I'm sorry I said that! I usually don't make mistakes like this and I promise it won't happen again. :)

 

Look, I don't personally mind these links in the thread, but our moderators are instructed to remove inappropriate content and they simply did their job. I agree that the links aren't hurting anyone, which is why after we realized this, we decided to leave them.

 

Let's be civil and get back to the main topic. I am not here to cover anything up, do damage control or censor anyone. I'm here to closely listen to you and forward what you say so that my colleagues get a better idea of how this impacted you. I read every single post in this thread like in many other sensitive threads before. I'm not here to fight or silence you. I honestly want what's best for this community, so let's show everyone that we can handle it like pros and focus on what's important.

[ASharpPencil]

10 minutes ago, Kandly said:

 

I honestly want what's best for this community

 

OK...

so you think this is best for the community?

and  this was VS GZ player...

 

 

[mtm78]

26 minutes ago, Kandly said:

Let's be civil and get back to the main topic. I am not here to cover anything up, do damage control or censor anyone. I'm here to closely listen to you and forward what you say so that my colleagues get a better idea of how this impacted you. I read every single post in this thread like in many other sensitive threads before. I'm not here to fight or silence you. I honestly want what's best for this community, so let's show everyone that we can handle it like pros and focus on what's important.

 

I agree completely, and it does me good to read this. The issue as I see it is that the UI wasn't finished and feels WG EU rushed the ship release as to not miss the GC hype sale. It feels WG is trying to silence critique to not hurt these hype sales which happen due to people hearing there is a new premium CV and it's German, just during this big event, buying it without thoroughly informing themselves. 

 

As I understand, the CC's are also feeling a little bit used, as the ship they had and which they showed on stream and on which basis someone might buy a ship, and this ship they showed is not what is for sale and they had no time to make a final review of this state she ended up in. 

 

This happened before with German DD's. Those are fine now, I believe GZ will also be fine. But the UI should get a priority update to display the delay, and I think it would appease many if WG would just stop doing this. Having this UI fix should be enough to hold people over until a torpedo option is available as to the developer communiquee. 

 

The only need for 'torches' here is the feeling that people have of being ... well I can't use that word without getting censored but it describes the act of telling people something they might want to hear but it not actually meaning anything. 

 

This is not your fault, you're passing through information between two groups which seem to be out of sync on some rather central topics. Like how to release ships ( or balance their game, but that's another topic ). 

 

I don't play CV's ( not really anyway, even while I did sub to fara to support him as watching his streams convinced me I could actually make them work ), I would suggest to look at Fara's twitch vod as he can much better explain the issues with the UI and current loadout. But that's for later concern, the first one would be saying something about the UI :)

 

edit: also, if I were WG I would honor any request for a refund even if the ship has been played after purchase ( ofc with an upper limit, but someone who bought it without knowing the current state can only see that after the purchase and after actually having played with the AP loadout. If they feel they bought something which isn't what they thought it is, they should have an option to refund it ). That's would show some understanding of the actual issue. 

 

 

edit2: btw, increase the amount of likes per day so I can like your post  

 

 

 

 

 

[Juanx]

1 minute ago, ASharpPencil said:

 

OK...

so you think this is best for the community?

 

 

They cant, saw them yesterday in coop while doing the UK BB weeklies, bots are too agressive for newbs. Restricting them to T3-4, or go the smart way, make a frigging microserver for the event, I mean, how muhc infrastructure you need to sustain a game running at a time? Its not like they are flooded with thousands upon thousands of wannabe players.

[tenshox]

It should not be hard to remove this massive turd from the store and refund the people who have bought it. Just keep it in development until it's done.

 

That's basically the only option WG has, other than being ridiculed to eternity and beyond while customer support ist dwindling away.

[Kandly]

Just now, ASharpPencil said:

 

OK...

so you think this is best for the community?

 

 

Oh yes... This is far from ideal. We're definitely trying to improve on this for the next event!

[Takru]

 

 

7 minutes ago, mtm78 said:

It feels WG is trying to silence critique to not hurt these hype sales

 

Maybe reposting the vids would help to assure everybody that this isn't the case?

 

 

 

 

 

[mtm78]

3 minutes ago, Takru said:

Maybe reposting the vids would help to assure everybody that this isn't the case?

 

Well it took someone stepping in for these video's to suddenly be 'allowed'. I guess 'censorship' is still a sore wound ;)

 

Anyway, yeah it's good they came around on that one. 

 

edit:

 

Btw, you realize that not allowing final review is the actual censorship far far more important than at first removing critical video's? This thread or those video's are to little and to late concerning people who bought the ship based on those old video's. 

[Gelb13]

To Paraphrase Farrazellah:

Carriers tend to be balanced around a trifecta of strengths/weaknesses in the game's current state:

 

-Air Control

-Plane load-out

-Strike

 

As for the Graf:

 

Air Control: 2 squads of fighters seem great on paper compared to the Lex's air superiority package 2/0/2 but both pale in comparison to the polyvalence of the Shokaku's Balanced 2/2/2 load out. But the Graf's fighters are abysmally fragile and have low amo which is further exacerbated by Graf players who chose the secondary battery range increase module that competes with the extra fighter amo/health module in the same slot. Ergo, your strafe's are limited/costly and the dpm during them is bad enough that a head on strafe with a shokaku fighter squadron will result in you downing one of their planes at the cost of 3 of yours. In exchange for all of that Graf fighters are faster than the opposition by 5-6 knots on avg...

 

Plane load-out: Much had been said about the gimpiness of US cv air superiority builds and I will try not to rehash that too much here. At glance the 2/0/3 Graf build is similar to that of the Lex AS package's 2/0/2. The comparison ends their though as Lex Fighter squadrons carry 6 fighters by default to the Graf's 4. While Lex fighters  are marginally inferior stat wise than the Graf's, the extra 2 planes per squadron demolish the Graf's in terms of raw dpm both in click engagements and strafes. While the the dive-bomber squadrons are fine in themselves in terms of size/load-out. In comparison to consistant dmg builds equipped with torp bombers (Shokaku's 3/1/2 AS build) the Graf is inevitably as limited as the Lex's load out when forced to use HE rng bombs to generate hits/fires to rack up dmg. More on the Wunderwaffen AP bombs in the next paragraph... 

 

Strike: And if the original 2/3/0 early monster torp build was any indication, the Strike component of the trifecta was what wargaming tried to buff in detriment to Air-control and Plane Load-out for balance. As it stands with HE bombers the graf is just another AS Lex clone with the added minor gimmicks of a circular aiming point for omni directional bombing and an extra bomber squadron to draw out fires compared to the Lex's setup. See the Lex's avg dmg numbers then compare them to other AS builds equiped with torp bombers (Shokaku 3/1/2) for added emphasis on the Graf's long run strike output using the HE bomber build. 

      As for the AP bombs much can be said about them...As a concept of a time delayed skill shot comparable to torps im partial to it...However in it's current state I'm emphatically against it. Compare it to a torp drop, a not perfectly placed torp drop still does dmg in the form of 1-2 torp hits and the chance of applying the most punishing dot in the game (flooding). Furthermore, and forgive me if this next bit is somewhat abstract/devoid of direct facts as Im reaching back to my experience of playing CVs and the Graf in General. A torp spread is usally 1.5-2 the size of the manual Graf AP drop, with the torps themselves impacting 3-5 seconds after being dropped. While that 2 second difference between torp drops and the ap bombs might sound inconsequential, contrast it with the size of manual drop reticules and you can see how high the all or nothing dmg skill ceiling here is in comparison.

    Furthermore the bombs are situational/able to arm only when facing German BBs and thick decked cruisers a la Moskva, in any other situation they either overpen and do minimal dmg around 5-6K on non armored targets. Or most likely missing completely when it comes to targeting fast moving dds and cls. Compared to the universal threats posed by torp bombers you can throw AP build Graf 's polyvalence  right out the window...

 

Verdict: For the life of me I cant see why the couldn't switch 1 DB squadron out with a single one the previous good pattern torpedo bombers from the previous iteration...I suspect the Dev's were forced to go with an all or nothing approach to either TBs or DBs because they only had a single strike plane modeled and thus couldn't create a more balanced load-out a la enterprise(2/2/2)...But hey that's the cynic in me speaking, Born from watching the drip drip of minor mistakes and some large ones from WG and the EU office as a whole.

 

 

[Jammci]

Could I just ask, why are we having more and more mistakes from WG, and every time we seem to forget it a few weeks down the line. We consistently get the worse end of the stick when it comes to missions, a Server staff who seem to be incapable of actually LISTENING to us when we have legitimate concerns because RU must be treated like the OG server.

 

This, the Christmas mission fiasco, Foch-gate. week after week of worse missions than rewards than other servers, the lack of communication we actually have to the developers, etc, why do we continue to buy stuff from WG. We are the largest server, so how about we show it, by not buying anything for the next couple of months, that would show WG our displeasure.

[von_Boeg]

29 minutes ago, Kandly said:

but our moderators are instructed to remove inappropriate content and they simply did their job.

 

I assume that there are no other videos including bad words but NOT that critical to WG on this very forum then...

[Takru]

6 minutes ago, mtm78 said:

 

Well it took someone stepping in for these video's to suddenly be 'allowed'. I guess 'censorship' is still a sore wound ;)

 

Anyway, yeah it's good they came around on that one. 

 

Kandly stepped in, if you phrase it like that.

The mods stepped in when they thought it was violating the forum rules, which is what they're here for. She asked them to be a bit more lenient in this case since it's a fairly hot topic right now.

 

Now if you excuse me, I still have to find something else to spend those 50€ on....

[mtm78]

Just now, Takru said:

Now if you excuse me, I still have to find something else to spend the 50€ on....