Remove Radar, Keep Sonar

[GhiGuns]

Its time to remove the rader from the game, and keep the sonar. Its just hopless to play DD, when u got 4 radarships and a CV.

Then WG need to buff the range on torps, if they will keep the radar. Now there is even talk about buffing Radar range vs diff.

type of ships. Keeping the sonar is oki, the ships have some defence vs torp attack, and even to charge smoking ships.

Or they need to fix the MM so u want get 4 radarships on one side, and 1 on the other side. As we all now this game

need more balance.

 

 

[valrond]

Well, if you know the ships that have radar, you can stay  away from those, you know.

I radar goes, so has to go smoke, we need a counter to that "engaging mechanic".

[mtm78]

33 minutes ago, xX_Poseidon_Xx said:

Or they need to fix the MM so u want get 4 radarships on one side, and 1 on the other side. As we all now this game

need more balance.

 

^^

 

Radar is a pain in the but, but you need it ( unless smoke is nerved really hard anyway even for small guns and not just the babies ). MM sometimes dumping 4 random belfast in one team and 2 Yorck a Schors and a Fiji on the other, that is more of an balance issue WG should be able to solve. 

[WingedHussar_Adler]

Radar is fine.....on cruisers.....remove from rest. 

[darky_fighter]

I am a DD player. So radar ships are a pain in my a.s.s. But:

 

Radar ships are not OP (There are exceptions like Belfast. But it is not radar, it is the combination of Smoke-Radar-Hydro. Belfast: "I can see you, you can't see me and you can't torp me"):

 

 

The radar ships Edinburgh, Chapayev and New Orleans aren't the top tier 8 CAs. So:

1. Adapt your DD playstyle if the enemy has a lot of radar ships.

2. Your team has other advantages (that is why these cruisers have higher win rates then radar ships) and should focus enemy radar ships.

 

[mtm78]

Radar Edin is super rare though, so in fact the only real radar ships are second and third from bottom. Which only emphasizes your point, it's not radar as a mechanic which is the issue. Also, you can't really judge the mechanic based on average stats, the times I see radar ships sit at max range not even near caps to actually make use of their radar disqualifies using average performance, I rather just use gameplay examples from how it should actually work. And even then, just as you say, radar isn't broken as a mechanic ( even if it would be nice if you could break detection using islands / solid objects ). Radar actually should work as a catalyst for teamwork both in benefiting from it and countering it through focus. Radar as a concept is good. Putting radar on a destroyer which is also by far the best gunboat at it's tier is arguably.... questionable. 

[BillydSquid]

1 hour ago, xX_Poseidon_Xx said:

Its time to remove the rader from the game, and keep the sonar. Its just hopless to play DD, when u got 4 radarships and a CV.

Then WG need to buff the range on torps, if they will keep the radar. Now there is even talk about buffing Radar range vs diff.

type of ships. Keeping the sonar is oki, the ships have some defence vs torp attack, and even to charge smoking ships.

Or they need to fix the MM so u want get 4 radarships on one side, and 1 on the other side. As we all now this game

need more balance.

 

 

 

No, it's not exactly a click I win button in the current meta, with a 9.9 -12km range pushing into a cap with it to counter smoke camping will get you deleted very fast by every BB in range, it's extremely powerful as a consumable, but it's situational or you can just abuse the stupid mechanics and activate behind an island for super balanced use. 

 

Radar changes are too convoluted, I don't mind the variation in detect-ability, ie: larger ships detected from further away, but radar should simply be equalized across the board for all the CA lines which have it, I can't remember multiple different detection ranges for 3 different CA/CL lines on 4 different classes. I don't mind them extending the range which hits CAs in the proposed changes.... BUT, radar shouldn't penetrate islands, positioning behind terrain to block radar should be applied if they're hell bent on nerfing smoke into the floor. (not that they'd ever make such a reasonable change) 

[aboomination]

Radar is fine...I just wish there were more competent players using it. Was hunting a Shima that forced a stalemate in my Khebab for 15 min until I finally found and killed her...meanwhile a New Orleans was jerking off 10km away from the cap (full of smoke and solid cover).

After the Shima was down we steamrolled the flank (we were 4 ships down) but it was too late and a lone Hipper ran away successfully...frustrating. 

[Thracen]

It's actually not that hard to bait out radar as a dd when there are land masses around a cap. ( pretty common). Delay your entry into a cap if you think it's covered by a radar ship, plan your route into the cap then back behind a land mass. They will see you caping, or get detected themselves, pop a radar and just as their guns come on target you pop behind your island and they have shown themselves to your BBs and wasted a radar cooldown. 

In my experience aside from the effortless belfast most players struggled to use their radar effectively, it's very hard to get into position as a CC without getting deleted early game and even if you find a safe spot you can easily get pinned and flanked without team support. Charging Missouris can be a problem but you can usually see them coming a mile off and even with a lowered citadel a Missouri charging a cap aint gonna last long if you have ships still floating.

 

Laying a spread of torps into a UK CCs smoke is another easy to way to deal with them, they have to leave or eat a torp, both are very harmful especially to a belfast as it has no heal. 

[Venatacia]

Have to agree. I was detected at 10.5km by Radar in my Jap DD at tier 8 the other day. Even worse if you playing any of the other lines. Personally I think it should be reduced to around 7 or 8km. Like you say, get 3 ships or more with radar and solo planes plus CV planes and it's a dogs life for a DD player. But then DD have been the target for a long time now for nerfs by WG. I just wished WG had reduced the amount of torp spam from CBT, may have never come to this.

[Prospect_b]

1 hour ago, darky_fighter said:

I am a DD player. So radar ships are a pain in my a.s.s. But:

 

Radar ships are not OP (There are exceptions like Belfast. But it is not radar, it is the combination of Smoke-Radar-Hydro. Belfast: "I can see you, you can't see me and you can't torp me"):

 

 

The radar ships Edinburgh, Chapayev and New Orleans aren't the top tier 8 CAs. So:

1. Adapt your DD playstyle if the enemy has a lot of radar ships.

2. Your team has other advantages (that is why these cruisers have higher win rates then radar ships) and should focus enemy radar ships.

 

Haha, good one of you showing the tier 8s. Those numbers really show the full story... You could apply for a job at WG.

 

I'm at the chappy myself now and that thing sees tier 10 most of the time (all tier 8 cruisers do) and has a major lack of carrying power. Just earlier today I endured a tier 10 game in mountain range. Much fun (spawned south of A). New Orleans is supposed to be quite as brittle too.

 

Maybe you could check winrate of tier 10s? Or compare missouri vs iowa? Then come again.

[darky_fighter]

16 minutes ago, PzychoPanzer said:

Haha, good one of you showing the tier 8s. Those numbers really show the full story...

 

T 8 ships play against T 6 - T 10 ships. So this is a good "story".

 

T 8 was also the "team battle" tier.

[Prospect_b]

2 minutes ago, darky_fighter said:

 

T 8 ships play against T 6 - T 10 ships. So this is a good "story".

Your profile is hidden, not really a problem with that, but it makes me unable to see how many t8 cruiser games you have. Trust me T6-8 games are extremely rare in a tier 8 cruiser.

Anyway, why didn't you check those tier 10 cruiser winrates?

[darky_fighter]

https://warships.today/

 

Warships Today is down at the moment. My screenshot was made last week. I used it in the german forum.

[Prospect_b]

5 minutes ago, darky_fighter said:

https://warships.today/

 

Warships Today is down at the moment. My screenshot was made last week.

Hmm, not here. Can't copy paste img atm, but numbers are, descending

 

 

Des Moines 51.66%

Moskva 51.55%

Minotaur 50.90%

Zao 50.80%

Henri IV 49.86%

Hindenburg 49.34%

 

edit: and missouri has 56.19 versus iowa 49.64

[BruceForce]

If anything we need more radar and less smoke. Just why do dd players feel they are entitled to fight from invisibility the entire game and fault anyone who dares proposing that ships may be visible for 30 seconds? Believe it or not, after being torped for 10 minutes we would like to be able to shoot back for once!

[darky_fighter]

4 hours ago, BruceForce said:

If anything we need more radar and less smoke. Just why do dd players feel they are entitled to fight from invisibility the entire game and fault anyone who dares proposing that ships may be visible for 30 seconds? Believe it or not, after being torped for 10 minutes we would like to be able to shoot back for once!

 

Compare DD HP with BB HP.

Compare DD armour with BB armour.

 

DD's armour is invisibility.

Like Atlanta's armour are islands.

 

What do you want? An open gun fight between BB's and DD's? BB's secondaries would win this fight alone. ^^

[159Hunter]

Radar should stay, but it would be a plus if they'd take it into consideration for MM.

[RAHJAILARI]

I like to play DD also and yeah, when there are 4 radars and a CV on the other team those games tend to be quite short with a DD rarely surviving the first encounter. BUT on the other hand, Radar IS useful and even vital addition to the tem so I would not want it removed entirely, it is just that there are games where there are simply too many of them for any kind of reasonable chance of survival for DD's who attempt to do their job in being in front, scouting and capping. So instead of removing radar, why not just limit the number of radar ships allowed in a team to a maximum of 2, for example. A DD can indeed just run and hide from radar, since we know which ships generally have them.

 

Of course, doing this when there are 4 radar ships will result in the now infamous more passive gameplay, possibly the least for the entire game and may result in no caps captured. With 2 radar ships the same would be true, just for starters and in the beginning of the game BUT a couple of radar ships can still be well avoided. 4 is another matter entirely. A CV will make things hairier, especially if the player is good and goes after DD's first, like often happens, but that's what the friendly Cruisers are there for. Of course and quite sadly in high tiers, there are rarely enough cruisers around to hide under their AA umbrella but that is another game balance issue entirely.

[P2Win]

Radar will never be removed. It was the main reasons a lot of people got the MISSOURI, PAYFAST etc. The thing about radar is..it's very situational. The battleships that do have them rarely push in to use them so it's kinda a waste.

[darky_fighter]

20 minutes ago, P2Win said:

The battleships that do have them rarely push in to use them so it's kinda a waste.

 

Missouri radar is a very good DD protection also. I can't use my full DD detection advantage (e. g. Kagero 5,4 km) to attack this ship. One simple key press changes roles. Then I am the victim and Missouri and his teammates are the hunter. Even weak BB campers press this key.

 

Also, my RPF is a boomerang in these situations. I can't turn it off. The BB camper sees that he is spotted. He wonders why because he is the camper. Far away from the enemy. So it must be an attacking DD. Radar on.

[P2Win]

7 minutes ago, darky_fighter said:

 

Missouri radar is a very good DD protection also. I can't use my full DD detection advantage (e. g. Kagero 5,4 km) to attack this ship. One simple key press changes roles. Then I am the victim and Missouri and his teammates are the hunter. Even weak BB campers press this key.

 

How you expect for BB/Cruisers to see you if you stay out our detection...? 

[RAHJAILARI]

Oh yeah, forgot to mention previously. The situation could also be improved without limitations to number of radar ships allowed (thus easier for MM) IF the radar actually worked more realistically.

 

SO

 

Typically radar of the time, while being able to spot target in open sea, would have difficulties identifying targets, which were immediately next to a landmass (like immediately in front of an island) or close behind it (like behind an island) creating a kind of a "shadow zone" in those areas. This would also make good sense for improved gameplay and allow the plucky DD to hide from radar for a time (well, if you happen to be near any islands, that is - Otherwise tough luck) and then cautiously proceed with the task of scouting and spotting ahead.

[darky_fighter]

10 minutes ago, P2Win said:

 

How you expect for BB/Cruisers to see you if you stay out our detection...? 

 

Enemy DD's and CV's. And we also have radar cruisers. The role of these ships includes spotting. I don't like all inclusive ships like Belfast (Smoke-Radar-Hydro). It should be a little more teamwork necessary for victory. Spotting, Damage Dealing, Smoking and so on. One single ship shouldn't can do all these things.

[P2Win]

5 minutes ago, darky_fighter said:

 

Enemy DD's and CV's. And we also have radar cruisers. The role of these ships includes spotting. I don't like all inclusive ships like Belfast (Smoke-Radar-Hydro). It should be a little more teamwork necessary for victory. Spotting, Damage Dealing, Smoking and so on. One single ship shouldn't can do all these things.

 

1. I rarely ever run into CV at higher tier

2. Most of the brain DD are on my team

3. Radar is fine