So DD divisions are bad and I don't think there is anything we can do about it.

[Thracen]

So I've had a string of games over the last week where we have 2 dds and they spawned right next to each other, this turns out to be a handy function of divisions. However this causes problems and when your only dds are "paired up" it's a strong indicator of a loss.

 

Firstly you are nearly always down a cap from the start

Secondly the value of torps and spotting of two dds overlap, at best you get 1.5 dds worth of value, this includes a lessened threat of torps as they all come along a similar line of attack

Thirdly, naturally these dds alternate smokes and share, meaning your dds aren't ever really spotting for you and are very static in their positioning

Fourthly, they tend to die together, to the same radar, hydro or torp spread, eggs in one basket etc.

 

Obviously splitting them up would be counterproductive and hurt their enjoyment of the game, so this just seems to be something we have to live with. 

Has anyone else experienced this or have I just been unlucky?

[Ubertron_X]

DD divisions are not necessarily a bad thing. Bad DD players are.

[Xevious_Red]

Depends how competent your DD are. If I ever division with another DD we take seperate caps, communicate, and keep as much spotted as possible.

If we need to take the same cap (like theres 5 DD) then we ensure one of us is always out of smoke whilr the other takes advantage of it

[RUSSIANBlAS]

Just like any other Divs, there are good ones and bad ones.

 

Granted bad DDs will lose you the game where as a few BB potatoes camping together at the rear will actually manage to kill something every now and again. 

[Thracen]

Yep, agree with all your points, although I've never experienced this with other division compositions. I think this is partly down to the sheer lack of dds in the match maker, often 1 or 2 dds is all you get. I already dislike the 1vs2 dd match making wargaming think is acceptable.

[RUSSIANBlAS]

I think the problem you're talking about is that DDs need a lot more ability to play even to an average degree than the more "popular" class.

 

If your team has two or even one DD who doesn't cap and spot but the other team does then you're basically looking at a loss. I think WG have tried to rectify this by giving stuff radar and other goodies instead of making DDs more playable or teaching people how to use them other than being facerolled a few hundred times which is how I think I learnt! 

[hellhound666]

lets be honest here - most of dd players are so bad (like me, for different reason though) that it wont change much if they would not be in div. good players know anyway what to do 

[Thracen]

The problem gets worse when your only two dds spend the whole game within 2 km of each other, you might has well have one from the start which is my point.

[Aotearas]

23 minutes ago, Ubertron_X said:

DD divisions are not necessarily a bad thing. Bad DD players are.

 

That.

 

And it goes for every class or combination thereof. A division is a force multiplier, but sometimes the only thing present to multiply is stupidity.

[Thracen]

no, i think dds paired up actually generates more problems than simple lack of player skill, as I detailed above.

[RUSSIANBlAS]

9 minutes ago, Thracen said:

The problem gets worse when your only two dds spend the whole game within 2 km of each other, you might has well have one from the start which is my point.

 

Possibly, although if both those DDs can do their job together effectively it's still a massive positive for the rest of the team as you'll definitely win 1 out of the 3/4 caps then your team has a fighting platform from there rather than being straight capped.

 

I know what you mean though as if there is a double DD div on Tears of the Desert Domination and they spawn together then it's LOL time...

[ColonelPete]

Depends on how they play.

Two DD that support each other are much more powerful than two separate DD without support.

Yes, two separate DD with support from the team are better, but not much, when the 2 combined DD play well.

On average, it should not make much difference as most teams have trouble supporting their DDs.

[Lord_WC]

44 minutes ago, Aotearas said:

That.

 

And it goes for every class or combination thereof. A division is a force multiplier, but sometimes the only thing present to multiply is stupidity.

Talking about 2 man divisions strictly as the statement is true for 3 mans. But in two mans some combos (like Izumo and FDG) are so very hard to play.

Double DD can go either way. Two IJN is bad (except Fujin, Kamikaze R, Shinonome) because IJN DDs are generally bad and two of them is way worse. Gunboats are fine, strong even. Double Gearings/Khabas are disgusting. However as a rule of thumb two different classes are better.

[lameoll]

1 hour ago, Ubertron_X said:

DD divisions are not necessarily a bad thing. Bad DD players are.

ofc the player makes it work. But tripple dd divisions or tripple bb or cruiser divisions are all just as bad.

as u will still be dependent on the other classes in the game if u div up like that.

[AnotherDuck]

I think that if they are the only two (or three) DDs on the team, they should spawn separately, or at least centrally. If there are more DDs, they should spawn like usual. That's really the only problem. Anything else is up to player skill.

[RAHJAILARI]

I play DD a lot and sometimes division with other DD too, but we coordinate and it occasionally makes sense just to start with one cap only, then go for the next. It is not uncommon for the DD to spread out over all the caps and as a result all of them get killed immediately leaving the team without any caps gains. One must be flexible with the tactics used. Sometimes going for different caps is good, sometimes it is not so much. Availability of backup, especially from cruisers is also critical to success here (assist in killing enemy DD, prevent enemy cruiser from killing ours).

 

In the end it also really depends on the DD player's skill of course, since DD is highly vulnerable and cannot take any fire. A good DD division can win the game hands down or at the least give the opponent a good run for their money. But that said, what I have begun doing with my friends, when we play division, we try to take different types of ships each. It does seem that if you have a division of 1 CL and 1 DD + a BB perhaps you will get a more favorable MM than otherwise. A 3 DD division seems to be very bad idea on all accounts, whereas 3 cruisers division is often quite OK, 3 BB division likewise seems to often end up in difficulties. So nowadays we always try to spread out a bit so that we have different types of ship instead of everyone having the same.

[Azrael_Ashemdion]

I was in a div of 3 DDs last night, and we came in a win as the top 3 of our team.  Does that mean DD divs are OP?  

Nope.

 

  Az

[Armorin]

I once came across a DD division that didn't appear to do anything useful at the start of the game, and it looked like we were going to lose heavily. They called us a useless team. Then they cleaned up and won the game.

Great way to stat pad I suppose.

[RAHJAILARI]

Well yeah, there are those . But then they probably would have done the same even if they were not in a DD.

[_Teob_]

I disagree profusely with several things in the OP. Both the main premise and some of the tertiary inferences.

 

So first of all, being down a cap at the start is not an issue.I always see people losing their minds. I see people yelling to get caps despite our team having a 400pt lead. Caps are general goals that are usually not worth losing a ship for. 

 

Secondly, about double DD tactics, cross-torpedoing is one of the most dangerous things in the game. If done well, the intended target has no way of dodging all of them. Also, having 2 DDs means that, once something does eat torpedoes, then one of the DDs can smoke and set the target on fire because he has an assured spotter. And capping with 2 DDs is always better than with one. To give you an idea, a Gearing will die if it finds itself fighting 2 Kageros. No DD (apart from the Khaba) fares well against 2 other DDs regardless of what they are. 

 

I will concede that triple DD divisions aren't great though.

 

On a personal note, I used to play with a guy in double DD divisions all the time (he's taking a study break atm ). We have very similar play styles and I dare say we are both above average players. We carved a bloody path wherever we were. We would chew through the enemy team like Pacman through those... bubble things - shaky analogy but you get the gist of it. It got so much that we actually start to compete with each other for dmg. 

 

So yeah, to mirror what others have said, bad players are bad, it's just that it's more difficult to notice a bad player in other classes.

[RAHJAILARI]

I agree.. I've had some great games with a 2dd division as well, but it all seems to get sour at 3 for some reason though. So for example 2dd and 1 CL works well too. And yeah, love the cross-torp bungo as well.. Also of note, once someone takes a torp and floods, they use their repairability... And then... Oh well the other guy, who accidentally fired his torps a few seconds later coincidentally torps them again! Will kill a full health Yamato just by flooding easy. Of course, there's nothing to prevent you from setting a few fires as well, if you want to be mean. The victim will be traumatized for life.

[Thracen]

I agree with your point about caps Teob, they aren't worth losing a ship over early, something I often say at a match opening.However I do think that contesting/denying or even being well positioned to move into at least 2 caps at the right moment is very important, god knows that no cruiser or BB will want to even contest a cap without good spotting. If all your spotting is in one place it leaves the other spawn groups blind and vulnerable and encourages the dreaded lemming ball. I think we have all experienced games where 3 caps get taken early and it's all downhill from there.

 

The focus of my criticism is with dds sailing very close to each other all game, I specifically mention torps coming along the same angle. A pair of DD operating independently 5-10km apart is exactly what isn't happening when I see these paired up dds.

[Thracen]

I agree with your point about caps Teob, they aren't worth losing a ship over early, something I often say at a match opening.However I do think that contesting/denying or even being well positioned to move into at least 2 caps at the right moment is very important, god knows that no cruiser or BB will want to even contest a cap without good spotting. If all your spotting is in one place it leaves the other spawn groups blind and vulnerable and encourages the dreaded lemming ball. I think we have all experienced games where 3 caps get taken early and it's all downhill from there.

 

The focus of my criticism is with dds sailing very close to each other all game, I specifically mention torps coming along the same angle. A pair of DD operating independently 5-10km apart is exactly what isn't happening when I see these paired up dds.

[Dragnorak]

18 hours ago, hellhound666 said:

lets be honest here - most of dd players are so bad (like me, for different reason though) that it wont change much if they would not be in div. good players know anyway what to do 

 

Oh I don't know I come across some excellent DD players myself.

 

Personally I'm not bothered what I face to be honest I'm more bothered what support levels ive got and are my cruisers working with me. 

 

However out of all the classes it is very hard to learn "good" DD play as no one is there to teach you so like me you go through many many many games of PAIN before you learn. There needs to be an instruction manual for DD play to be honest as there are a lot of finesse points you need to learn and just plain getting through your thick head that you are very important for your team and what you do matters at many levels.

[Thracen]

I agree with your point about caps Teob, they aren't worth losing a ship over early, something I often say at a match opening.However I do think that contesting/denying or even being well positioned to move into at least 2 caps at the right moment is very important, god knows that no cruiser or BB will want to even contest a cap without good spotting. If all your spotting is in one place it leaves the other spawn groups blind and vulnerable and encourages the dreaded lemming ball. I think we have all experienced games where 3 caps get taken early and it's all downhill from there.

 

The focus of my criticism is with dds sailing very close to each other all game, I specifically mention torps coming along the same angle. A pair of DD operating independently 5-10km apart is exactly what isn't happening when I see these paired up dds.