Brits: Special case across the board?

[FishDogFoodShack]

I know this is being talked about to death but ...

 

After everything that has been announced about these monsters, it seems to me like every aspect of the new British BBs is an above and beyond gimmick of some kind. Not just one or two special traits like another line may have (or not have, more often than not) but everything. People are saying the concealment is over the line, but even if that was nerfed, would it even be enough?

 

They have special:

- HE with higher fire chance

- AP with shorter fuse time for less overpens

- Consumables in the form of an immensely superior heal

- Concealment better than cruisers and purpotedly stealthiest USN BBs

- an underwater citadel

 

The only areas these ships don't have the traits of a DeviantArt OC is armour (and maybe maneuverability) where they still rival their best in class counterparts, which is interesting since it is toted as their weakness. The more appropriate title would be "least strong".

 

It feels akin to letting a new guy into a DnD circle, who insists his character (Marty Stu) gets solid 20s across the board, but is willing to drop one stat to 19 in the interest of fairness.

[Centurion_1711]

It does seem like power creep, I suppose. Luckily I think I heard the heal may be looked at, but even then as you say it seems like a gimmicky line. I still want to play them as I love any ship from the Royal Navy. It seems like they are BB's for he folks that don't particularly like/can't play BB's very well.

I appreciate that every new line needs to have a stand out quality, but it shouldn't make them plain better than other nation's BB's. The concealment alone will trump all BB's, hell even cruisers, making them unbelievably strong with the right build and in the right hands.

[Listy]

As RN player I wish we weren't so blessed. Just a normal line of ships please. It hurts the RN Cruisers. Especially when someone decides to nerf their one ability later on.

Gimmicks are bad, and I wish they'd stop using them.

 

I jokingly said RN BB's would get HE as their thing. Alarmingly I was right. I fear for what will be the RN DD thing. No guns or Torpedo's, just ramming and AA?

[Seeigel]

What about AA?

Do they have fighterplanes?

 

Otherwise, they are a welcome target for CVs.

[Azalgor]

I remember the day when a better heal was removed from Yamato because people considered it OP, now, they make an entire line that has a heal far better than the one they removed back then...Oh well, WG logic is something mortals will never understand, but at the very least im happy they removed DefAA/Radar from them.

[shockinhockin]

Please look again at the paper 25mm armour idea WG have for the King George Vs deck and plating armour now they have moved it to tier 7. Then check out some details on the real ships armour. It's not across the board on this ship.

 

Its defo not least bad.... it's bloody awful for no reason what so ever as the "monarch" is the same ship and it's has decent armour because "tier 8" 

 

this makes zero sence and makes a mockery of what should be the most well protected battleship other than Yamato. 

 

Looking at feedback iv have seen on the gimped t7 KGV. it's guns (special AP / HE included) are rather poor.  That would be fine if the armour was good as it should but it's not because "Teir 7" 

 

yes the super heals seem op and there's a lot to be talked about on the higher tier PAPER ships over performing. 

 

But the one ship that was actually real has now been totally inaccurately implemented just to allow these paper ships to fit this stealth gimmick.

 

why can't the gimmick of stealth start at t 8 if it really must where all the ships are paper anyway and please un gimp the KGV armour so it's fits as good armour but low calibre guns as news flash that's how it was in real life. Stop with the gimmicks! 

 

 

[Masterrix]

ironically, not long ago, a WGN stuff member (Tuccy?) said in this forum, that RN BBs won't get many gimmicks because devs figured out that these ships are already very solid....

 

....some weeks later, we know, that the RN BBs are the most "gimmicked" BB line ever, with several ships overperforming according to testers, just because of these stupid gimmicks ...

[shockinhockin]

Just now, Masterrix said:

ironically, not long ago, a WGN stuff member (Tuccy?) said in this forum, that RN BBs won't get many gimmicks because devs figured out that these ships are already very solid....

 

....some weeks later, we know, that the RN BBs are the most "gimmicked" BB line ever, with several ships overperforming according to testers, just because of these stupid gimmicks ...

Infuriating isn't it 

 

just give us the real ships that actually existed. As they where no gimmicks. Then flesh out the top end with the lions ect but as they would have been. 

 

I can not see an outcome where gimmick ships are benifical to anything... at all. And stealth battleships with bad armour..... that's a joke. Seriously WHAT ARE WG TALKIN ABOUT! 

[shockinhockin]

At to ruin a iconic real life warship class (KGV) just to fit fake gimmicks 

 

 

that's unacceptable 

 

 

i don't want it to be op I just want it to represent what it really was. 

 

 

Find me one place other than in WG heads that says KGV had "weak armour spots" 

 

please do find it it because I can't and it's driving me nuts 

[cracktrackflak]

Whats odd is that I've been seeing a lot of the new RN BBs over on RU - presumably with CCs and STs - but I have yet to see a single battle where one of the new ships has had a good game or topped the score lists. Instead, they seem to die like flies. Possibly they get focussed because of the "new BB" factor but, then again, maybe its because they aren't that durable when being driven by someone who is not a superunicum.

[wilkatis_LV]

2 hours ago, FishDogFoodShack said:

- HE with higher fire chance

- AP with shorter fuse time for less overpens

- Consumables in the form of an immensely superior heal

- Concealment better than cruisers and purpotedly stealthiest USN BBs

- an underwater citadel

 

-Higher fire chance and higher HE Pen (caliber divided by 4) are there probably so they have more effective amo against BBs as the AP will most likely be underperforming, also it promotes more thought in your amo choices

 

-AP will be better against CAs/CLs (possibly DDs) but weaker against BBs, simple tradeoff

 

-Better heal with less charges, but the way how you use it puts you in more dmanger. Yamatos heal is like... 16k? So I can pop it when I can heal around that much already, meaning I might still have as much as 80k health spare. Conquerors heal is like 40k, with max hp at 80k. So you literally have to go down to half health to use your heal fully in BEST CASE where all dmg you took was fire not AP hits. And then you are at your 40k and some tier X DDs torps show up next to you. Bye bye

 

-Pretty sure that if you go the same concealment build Cruisers still get it better, you can't compare a stealth build ship with a ship that you give no stealth upgrades. And because of your BB firing range the second you pull the trigger everyone in the game will see you anyway

 

-Underwater citadel promotes you playing at close range instead of derping at 20km. At close range shells will pass over your citadel without touching it, at longer ranges shells will come in at an angle so they will still hit it. And at that point it's just the question if your armour can hold up

[Tungstonid]

Unfortunately WG seems to think that new ship lines (and RN BBs in particular) need special features because A) players cried for them the most (and in case of RN BBs the loudest and the longest) and B) because they will sell better (e.g. more exp conversion) if they seem/are OP at release.

Additionally to the list OP posted WG also thought about giving them (or at least the higher tier ships) radar and/or Def AA. so it looks like we are better off right now then we were in the beginning although it is still not optimal.

 

Wilkatis_LV brought up a good point I was also thinking about. What good is a super heal if you have to put yourself into greater risk before you can fully use it. It also is less viable to counter-repair single fires because if you have one fire and you activate your repair party you will waste most of the repair. Add less charges to this and I am not really sure what to think about it anymore.

Although I disagree that a citadel below the water lines will make players get closer. Those who want to camp and "snipe" will do so no matter what ship and WG promotes the RN BBs as kind of guerilla ships anyway which works better at higher ranges when you can make use of your stealth more easily.

 

[AndyTheCupid]

I can't understand why new lines need gimmicks. IRL all battleships were similar, there's nothing wrong in game with having all BBs doing basically the same thing. Same with CA/CLs but I guess they're trying to keep evolving the game so it doesn't die a slow death as folks get bored.

[Fat_Maniac]

3 hours ago, FishDogFoodShack said:

I know this is being talked about to death but ...

 

After everything that has been announced about these monsters, it seems to me like every aspect of the new British BBs is an above and beyond gimmick of some kind. Not just one or two special traits like another line may have (or not have, more often than not) but everything. People are saying the concealment is over the line, but even if that was nerfed, would it even be enough?

 

They have special:

- HE with higher fire chance

- AP with shorter fuse time for less overpens

- Consumables in the form of an immensely superior heal

- Concealment better than cruisers and purpotedly stealthiest USN BBs

- an underwater citadel

 

The only areas these ships don't have the traits of a DeviantArt OC is armour (and maybe maneuverability) where they still rival their best in class counterparts, which is interesting since it is toted as their weakness. The more appropriate title would be "least strong".

 

It feels akin to letting a new guy into a DnD circle, who insists his character (Marty Stu) gets solid 20s across the board, but is willing to drop one stat to 19 in the interest of fairness.

You forgot to mention their downsides.

Meh AA.

No armour.

 

Looks like WG wants us to play the high tiers like cruisers and everybody knows what happens to them when they get spotted by BB's

[jss78]

3 hours ago, Seeigel said:

What about AA?

Do they have fighterplanes?

 

Otherwise, they are a welcome target for CVs.

 

At least the Lion on PTS has a monstrous amount of mid-range 40 mm AA. Fighter/spotter planes as options.

 

I'm kinda-maybe OK with the HE, but at least he Lion IMO has too many strong points and gives up too little. The unhittable citadel, AND the heal, AND the HE, AND the AP.

[MoveZig]

I'm wondering what the huge influx of HE-spamming BBs that are extremely resistant to HE will do the meta. Sure, the smart ones will be shooting AP at each other, but what about cruisers? Don't they indirectly get nerfed by this line that laughs at HE and keeps fires burning just to farm achievements? I predict a nerf to the superheal, including Nelson's.

[RamirezKurita]

3 hours ago, andjmiles said:

I can't understand why new lines need gimmicks. IRL all battleships were similar, there's nothing wrong in game with having all BBs doing basically the same thing. Same with CA/CLs but I guess they're trying to keep evolving the game so it doesn't die a slow death as folks get bored.

 

The real issue is that they are adding gimmicks to ships that weren't gimmicky and never would have been. There were plenty of gimmicky ships historically that would be fine with the addition of their unusual gimmicks, but they aren't implemented in favour of less gimmicky lines that then have to be reworked to include gimmicks.

[AndyTheCupid]

57 minutes ago, RamirezKurita said:

 

The real issue is that they are adding gimmicks to ships that weren't gimmicky and never would have been. There were plenty of gimmicky ships historically that would be fine with the addition of their unusual gimmicks, but they aren't implemented in favour of less gimmicky lines that then have to be reworked to include gimmicks.

 

Kind of what I was getting at, you just said it better.

[SavageRat]

Guys can we just chill with the apocolyptic prophesies of doom.

 

The line has only been balanced in house, super test and 1 ship in public test. 

 

It must be extremely difficult to balance a line of ships with such a small pool of testers, majority of whom have thousands of battles under their belts, know exactly how the game mechanics work and how to use them offensively and defensively.

 

Let's give the line a few weeks on the live servers, and let wg gather some real life data. Then after they've received some tweaks according to real world data, feel free to chastise, until then...

[FishDogFoodShack]

5 hours ago, wilkatis_LV said:

 

-Higher fire chance and higher HE Pen (caliber divided by 4) are there probably so they have more effective amo against BBs as the AP will most likely be underperforming, also it promotes more thought in your amo choices

 

-AP will be better against CAs/CLs (possibly DDs) but weaker against BBs, simple tradeoff

 

-Better heal with less charges, but the way how you use it puts you in more dmanger. Yamatos heal is like... 16k? So I can pop it when I can heal around that much already, meaning I might still have as much as 80k health spare. Conquerors heal is like 40k, with max hp at 80k. So you literally have to go down to half health to use your heal fully in BEST CASE where all dmg you took was fire not AP hits. And then you are at your 40k and some tier X DDs torps show up next to you. Bye bye

 

-Pretty sure that if you go the same concealment build Cruisers still get it better, you can't compare a stealth build ship with a ship that you give no stealth upgrades. And because of your BB firing range the second you pull the trigger everyone in the game will see you anyway

 

-Underwater citadel promotes you playing at close range instead of derping at 20km. At close range shells will pass over your citadel without touching it, at longer ranges shells will come in at an angle so they will still hit it. And at that point it's just the question if your armour can hold up

These points make sense in a vaccuum, but unfortunately each of these gimmicks are all applied to one single ship, gimmicks that were previously the national flavors of other nations, German HE pen+, USN concealment, IJN dispersion (conq has yamato dispersion last i checked? Forgot to mention this in the op), on top of RN Consumables and AP. When does that become acceptable? All these gimmicks mashed together negate the downsides of others, for example:

 

The downside of ap that is better vs cruisers is that it hurts BBs less, that is a trade-off indeed, a trade-off made moot by buffed HE that hurts battleships more. These two traits COMBINED mean no downsides to outweigh the positives.

 

The armour is actually less bad than WG would have you think, but for the sake of argument even if it was, cruiser like concealment means that British bbs can ultimately choose where and when they want to engage. You can't plunge fire into the citadel when a British warbird decloaks only 11km from you, and they can disappear if need be when focused at range.

 

Lastly i understand that the AA is also deceptively effective, with the majority of it's dps coming from short to mid range guns. The effective dps is on par with other bbs tier for tier if not better it is just the long range AA that is less so, earning the "bad AA" wilkie button.

 

Even the bad is only above average.

 

The end result is what sounds like to me an incredibly overbuffed line, worse, not even through normal means but instead, "Yeah but our version of that ALSO has ..." Gimmicks.

[Spellfire40]

7 hours ago, Seeigel said:

What about AA?

Do they have fighterplanes?

 

Otherwise, they are a welcome target for CVs.

what CVs exactly ? and high Tir ones have as insane aa as the US BBs just more in the mid range aura.......

[Philipp_ab_exterminatore]

The AP on the RN BBs is also amazing and you would have to be a fool to not use AP aswell 

[wilkatis_LV]

3 hours ago, FishDogFoodShack said:

The downside of ap that is better vs cruisers is that it hurts BBs less, that is a trade-off indeed, a trade-off made moot by buffed HE that hurts battleships more. These two traits COMBINED mean no downsides to outweigh the positives.

 

The armour is actually less bad than WG would have you think, but for the sake of argument even if it was, cruiser like concealment means that British bbs can ultimately choose where and when they want to engage. You can't plunge fire into the citadel when a British warbird decloaks only 11km from you, and they can disappear if need be when focused at range.

 

Lastly i understand that the AA is also deceptively effective, with the majority of it's dps coming from short to mid range guns. The effective dps is on par with other bbs tier for tier if not better it is just the long range AA that is less so, earning the "bad AA" wilkie button.

 

Even the bad is only above average.

 

The end result is what sounds like to me an incredibly overbuffed line, worse, not even through normal means but instead, "Yeah but our version of that ALSO has ..." Gimmicks.

 

On every other BB you just fire AP, it works against everything. There is no drawback to it, so you almost never use HE.

Now on a ship that has to actually follow the game and pick what amo  it's going to have loaded - you say that's an advantage somehow? A "no downside" case? Because I'm pretty sure having AP work against everything you meet is better than having inefficient AP against a BB or HE against a cruiser

 

Keep in mind 2 things about the detectability - Firing guns throws your stealth out the window, and those "11 km" are from the NEAREST ship to the enemy with LoS.

-They still are BBs with BB range. The second they fire they will be spotted  by anyone 20+ km around them for the next 22 (not 20 like everyone claims, if you pay attention to that in game you'll notice it actually lasts 2 extra seconds) seconds. And as far as I know they have around 25 sec reload? Barely enough time to re-stealth before your next shot is ready to go

-DDs tend to still be up front using their low detectability, and if (for example) you have a friendly DD 5km from you that Conq can't come closer than 16km to you from that direction without being spotted. To be fair it's not really that different from what other BBs get with full concealment build. IJN tend to be around 13km and NC is around 11.8km (if I remember correctly, these numbers might be slightly off). Actually compare to others before shouting how unfair it is

 

Armour might be good, but high tier BBs won't care, they will still pen it. Just hope that they don't overmatch something important. The part about armour was meant against cruisers at those short / medium ranges, that's where it might count

 

AA is good on the mid-range guns, yeah (like 5km or so). It's self defense AA unlike what cruisers tend to have. Nontheless, their AA (as far as I know) is weaker than USN and stronger than IJN - somewhere in the middle. And it's not like a CV can't get a drop on them, especially if someone has worked them over with some HE for a bit

 

Yes, they seem to be on the stronger side, and at the same time they seem to reward correct play instead of derping away at 20km like literally every other BB in the game. I do think people are heavily overreacting about them, just like about every single change / proposed change in this game. Sometimes it feels like 99% of this games population are 14 year old girls, everything upsets everyone

[DanottiTR]

-new ship line comes 

-somethings will be OP 

-for a time 

- need people to grind that line so must be attractive (changing captians ,spending free xp ,converting xp modules buying selling etc etc. )

-that sometime will pass

-nerf comes

-people get mad 

-a new ship line comes 

-people are happy 

 

no need to be an einstein :D

 

 

[Listy]

On 8/20/2017 at 7:50 PM, wilkatis_LV said:

AA is good on the mid-range guns, yeah (like 5km or so). It's self defense AA unlike what cruisers tend to have. Nontheless, their AA (as far as I know) is weaker than USN and stronger than IJN - somewhere in the middle. And it's not like a CV can't get a drop on them, especially if someone has worked them over with some HE for a bit

 

And there's something else that I suspect they've managed to miss-portray. By all accounts, from mates in the know, the 2Pdr Pompom was a pretty damn good AA gun. It, like nearly everything, had good things about it, and bad things about it. It should give pretty scary amounts of Self defence AA fire-power.

 

Also why gimmicks. I mean you want something a bit freaky and different, Two ships names HMS Agincourt and HMS Incomparable. There you go, two utterly unique ships for inclusion in game (Ok one's paper, but you get the idea).