Do T10 Heavy Cruisers still have a point?

[Thracen]

So I'm struggling in my Moskova at the moment because I'm a potato, (and with 13.8km detection some of the map spawns are simply too small to play at the 18km range required).

 

Anyway if got me thinking, what is the point of the moskova? She is worse than a Missouri in almost every way. She is huge, turns horribly had worse concealment and is shorter range. The trade offs being radar range over duration and rate of fire over alpha. Frankly the only advantages cruisers have over BBs is stealth and handling. On paper DPM is better but the reality is high alpha is far more relevant due to short windows or opportunity to safely fire. (unless you are a battleship) 

 

I put a lot of effort to get her, paid all those credits and she hasn't really got a point, and her playstyle is nearly impossible to get too when some maps spawn the teams only 25km apart. I cannot turn or find cover before I'm plane spotted and under fire from bbs, at which point all I can do is reverse, if I didn't spawn with an island at my back.

 

I like the Baltimore, she is stealthy and her arcs and radar give her a clear role, I know I'm not as powerful as a bb but there is clear value. I do fear BBs with 11k, concealment popping up but well what cc doesn't live in fear already? I don't have experience in other cruisers, so I can't comment on those.

 

So, do you think that top tier cruisers have lost their way? Personally if they have a role like the baltimore or des moines I can cope with the harder gameplay and lower rewards, but without something different to how they play (other than blowing up instantly) what's the point?

 

Obligatory, pain, salt and raging potato cruiser butt hut disclaimer.

[Tekacko]

Cruisers = BB food.

[Butterdoll]

No.

[valrond]

Dude, tier 10 cruisers are in a very good place, and stats confirm that. In the past two weeks, all except the Minotaur, do 74k-79k average damage, with the Minotaur at 65k. BBs do a bit more damage (around 90k), but compare that simply to tier 8 BBs vs tier 8 CAs. The difference is abysmal.

[El2aZeR]

 

I don't like her either tbh. Simply find her uncomfortable to play, but she's effective at what she does.

[Thracen]

The missouri has a base detection of 16.2km the Moskva is at 18km she has less health and less range lower alpha the new british BBs have 11km stealth similar health and super heal, with better HE and better AP. There is no point quoting winrate at T10 in ccs because the playerbase has been reduced to the people that really love ccs or are really good in them. If you want to quote objective stats:

 

Number of T10 BB matches in 2 weeks 40,632

Number of T10 CC matches in 2 weeks 50,190

 

Number of T10 BBs, 3

Number of T10 CCs. 6

 

Least played ship the Henry IV, 2218 followed by the Moskva at 6007. Win rate does not a fun ship to play make my good sir.

 

As for the video, it's old, watched it several times in the past, and spamming HE bow on with no hope of turning is not a viable playstyle. Again why not play a missouri with a nice lowered citadel so you can actually turn.

 

You guys are missing the point, I'm not saying "Don't play the Moskva she is bad!", I'm asking why play the Moskva when there is a ship that is much better at the battle cruiser with radar playstyle, or why play her when her playstyle is less fun and effective than her compatriots and competitors. My evidence is the number of players actually using the ship. For reference, the Missouri is at 9579 games for 2 weeks, arguably a much harder ship to get, and possibly much less common than the Moskva?

[aboomination]

I do quite well in my cruisers - also this topic is so 2016...wait 2015.

[Praxics]

No.

 

CA in general have no point.

Play BB or DD.

[_VAMPA_]

i dont know why u play moskva, its not best radar CA, its not best HEspam CA.....

im happy with mine t10 CAs and they  perform good as expected^^

[Drunken_Jedi]

You think it's bad now? Wait until Conqe.. I mean "Mega Zao" appears on the scene with 2.1km BETTER concealment than your Moskva with 419mm guns and a heal that can just laugh at any damage you inflict on her.

 

Seriously, unless something changes high tiers are going to be junk. I mean what's the point of the Hipper/Eugen at tier VIII when the Monarch has a 10.1km detection range? BB's ambushing CA's from stealth is just f**king broken as hell.

 

I'm British, I can't wait to play Royal Navy BB's like KGV and Nelson etc. But these high tier paper ships they're putting out are going to ruin the game. At no point should a BB have better concealment of any CA or CL of the same tier. It's just bonkers. If they want them to be a HE spamming line, fine.. whatever. If they want them to have a RN cruiser like heal... fair enough... although it could do with a little fine tuning on the HP/sec.

 

Nerf their concealment... doesn't have to be by much. They can still be "best in class"... but not better than a lot of cruisers ffs. I mean for Conqueror there is a 2km gap between her and the Montana. WHY?

[_VAMPA_]

1 minute ago, Drunken_Jedi said:

You think it's bad now? Wait until Conqe.. I mean "Mega Zao" appears on the scene with 2.1km BETTER concealment than your Moskva with 419mm guns and a heal that can just laugh at any damage you inflict on her.

 

Seriously, unless something changes high tiers are going to be junk. I mean what's the point of the Hipper/Eugen at tier VIII when the Monarch has a 10.1km detection range? BB's ambushing CA's from stealth is just f**king broken as hell.

 

I'm British, I can't wait to play Royal Navy BB's like KGV and Nelson etc. But these high tier paper ships they're putting out are going to ruin the game.

problem is not paperships, they are in every tree.

Things are very fkn simple - first 2months RN BBs will be OP, so entire ppl base goes after them with freexed($$$) or heavy grind...

....3monts and there will be heavy nerf or 1 nerf every patch for 3-4months period and.....next "current op ship"....bad practice more suited for some flash games company

[Zemeritt]

31 minutes ago, Drunken_Jedi said:

I'm British, I can't wait to play Royal Navy BB's like KGV and Nelson etc. But these high tier paper ships they're putting out are going to ruin the game. At no point should a BB have better concealment of any CA or CL of the same tier. It's just bonkers. If they want them to be a HE spamming line, fine.. whatever. If they want them to have a RN cruiser like heal... fair enough... although it could do with a little fine tuning on the HP/sec.

 

This is also my main problem with the new BB line. The HE and the heal don't matter that much to me. The concealment however is not okay!

 

As CL/CA main I now demand a T10 CA with a concealment around 6km! So I've better concealment then some other T10 DDs

[Capra76]

26 minutes ago, _VAMPA_ said:

.3monts and there will be heavy nerf or 1 nerf every patch for 3-4months period and.....next "current op ship"....bad practice more suited for some flash games company

 

I'm not so sure.

 

The RN ships will be very popular, but I don't think they're going to be very good.  They'll be able to return very high damage numbers, but that's going to be mostly fire damage, in terms of WR and influencing games I suspect they'll be pretty terrible.

 

They seem to be almost designed to cater to the very worst players in the game, you can sit at maximum range, contribute nearly nothing to the game and still walk away with 100k+ damage. 

 

How do you nerf such a ship?  The WR will be terrible, the damage will be good until you realize that it's all fire, what do you change?

[bug]

3 minutes ago, Capra76 said:

 

I'm not so sure.

 

The RN ships will be very popular, but I don't think they're going to be very good.  They'll be able to return very high damage numbers, but that's going to be mostly fire damage, in terms of WR and influencing games I suspect they'll be pretty terrible.

 

They seem to be almost designed to cater to the very worst players in the game, you can sit at maximum range, contribute nearly nothing to the game and still walk away with 100k+ damage. 

 

How do you nerf such a ship?  The WR will be terrible, the damage will be good until you realize that it's all fire, what do you change?

This release of UK BB will hurt cruisers and DD most, as they dont have the hp and many dont have repair. I smell games with only BB and DD in the future.

[Capra76]

Just now, bug said:

This release of UK BB will hurt cruisers and DD most, as they dont have the hp and many dont have repair. I smell games with only BB and DD in the future.

 

Yep, I've played Lion on PT and that's exaclty what I feel.

 

Maybe not so much about DD, but the strong HE and high fire chance turns them into Mega-cruisers (Flamu^TM), in which case why bother with an ordinary cruiser?  Outwith radar/defensive AA consumables they can do everything that a cruiser can do and who in their right mind is going to give up armour and firepower in return for a 20-30 second consumable and a few seconds rudder shift?

[_VAMPA_]

13 minutes ago, Capra76 said:

 

Yep, I've played Lion on PT and that's exaclty what I feel.

 

Maybe not so much about DD, but the strong HE and high fire chance turns them into Mega-cruisers (Flamu^TM), in which case why bother with an ordinary cruiser?  Outwith radar/defensive AA consumables they can do everything that a cruiser can do and who in their right mind is going to give up armour and firepower in return for a 20-30 second consumable and a few seconds rudder shift?

yup playing more like battlecruisers....that concealment is just tooo much....but they miss torps

give torps to rn bbs WG

[Namolis]

2 hours ago, Thracen said:

The missouri has a base detection of 16.2km the Moskva is at 18km she has less health and less range lower alpha the new british BBs have 11km stealth similar health and super heal, with better HE and better AP. There is no point quoting winrate at T10 in ccs because the playerbase has been reduced to the people that really love ccs or are really good in them. If you want to quote objective stats:

 

Number of T10 BB matches in 2 weeks 40,632

Number of T10 CC matches in 2 weeks 50,190

 

Number of T10 BBs, 3

Number of T10 CCs. 6

 

Least played ship the Henry IV, 2218 followed by the Moskva at 6007. Win rate does not a fun ship to play make my good sir.

 

As for the video, it's old, watched it several times in the past, and spamming HE bow on with no hope of turning is not a viable playstyle. Again why not play a missouri with a nice lowered citadel so you can actually turn.

 

You guys are missing the point, I'm not saying "Don't play the Moskva she is bad!", I'm asking why play the Moskva when there is a ship that is much better at the battle cruiser with radar playstyle, or why play her when her playstyle is less fun and effective than her compatriots and competitors. My evidence is the number of players actually using the ship. For reference, the Missouri is at 9579 games for 2 weeks, arguably a much harder ship to get, and possibly much less common than the Moskva?

Wait, what? Your own stats contradict your point. If CC's are played more, then WR will be less dominated by "specialists" than BBs, no?

 

I have only played Moskva on the PTS, but she seemed like a very good ship to me there. If you are asking what she has over the Missiouri, then the real answer is: dispersion and DPM.

 

There are tiers in the game where you can make a legitimate case that cruisers are consistently weaker than battleships (noticeably tier 8 (MK and Atago excluded) and tier 6), but T10 is not one of them.

[Thracen]

Ok assume all ships are equally well liked taking everything into account, every ship would get an even share of the total games played correct?

 3 ships have nearly half the number of matches, with 6 ships having the remainder. Which ships are more popular?

 

I answered your DPM response already, high alpha is preferable due to brief ideal opportunities, (eg before smoke or before a ship reaches cover or goes undetected), and CC DPM is restricted by gun arcs, turning too fast for your turrets and bouncing AP and shattering HE. Both problems, accidently BBs have less of.

[Capra76]

36 minutes ago, _VAMPA_ said:

yup playing more like battlecruisers....that concealment is just tooo much....but they miss torps

give torps to rn bbs WG

 

I don't think the problem is the concealment, there are other BB in the game with nearly as good concealment.

 

The problem is that by making them HE focused they play too much like cruisers only better, why play an HE cruiser when your food is already on fire?  Even if the concealment was nefed to Moskva/Hindi levels you still have the same problem, it's better at doing the cruisers job but with much stonger armour, all the cruisers get in return is a couple of 30 second consumables which have limited value.

[Corvi]

Go play Henri and laugh at eveyones faces. You will quickly redact your opinion about weak T10 cruisers.

[Hesp]

Play battleships, that's what WG wants you to play.

[Namolis]

17 minutes ago, Thracen said:

Ok assume all ships are equally well liked taking everything into account, every ship would get an even share of the total games played correct?

 3 ships have nearly half the number of matches, with 6 ships having the remainder. Which ships are more popular?

 

The number of lines is irrelevant, what you will see in the average t10 game is a 5:4 ratio of cruisers to battleships.

 

17 minutes ago, Thracen said:

I answered your DPM response already, high alpha is preferable due to brief ideal opportunities, (eg before smoke or before a ship reaches cover or goes undetected), and CC DPM is restricted by gun arcs, turning too fast for your turrets and bouncing AP and shattering HE. Both problems, accidently BBs have less of.

DPM being equal, I would agree that alpha is slightly* preferable. DPM is not equal.

 

However, if you find yourself without a target to shoot at too often, it could be the reason you can't make the ship work. This isn't WoT, you can't rely on ducking back into cover and trading shots on a one-to-one basis. You need to seek out positions where you can make the guns sing as much as possible.

 

*I say "slightly", because in this game it works the other way too - you often have enough theoretical damage to kill a target with your salvo (especially towards the end of the game), but you need to have the salvo ready to go for that to work. Btw; this isn't just about DPM, but also about turret rotation speed - another selling point of the T10 cruisers over battleships.

[komoo]

For me yes, they still have a point, but only one suits me perfectly.

 

That is the DM, because she has a clear role like you said.

 

Zao is very powerful (and easy) in farming damage, but you can't win battles with fires. Or, well maybe, but I don't feel as useful as when I am sailing the DM.

 

Moskva is still a recent addition to my port, maybe I have to build and learn a specific playstyle for that ship, and I agree with your concerns.

[_VAMPA_]

1 hour ago, Capra76 said:

 

I don't think the problem is the concealment, there are other BB in the game with nearly as good concealment.

 

The problem is that by making them HE focused they play too much like cruisers only better, why play an HE cruiser when your food is already on fire?  Even if the concealment was nefed to Moskva/Hindi levels you still have the same problem, it's better at doing the cruisers job but with much stonger armour, all the cruisers get in return is a couple of 30 second consumables which have limited value.

when u stack that concealment and mobility well its little toooo much

when u stack it with the upcoming smoke nerf...come on Neptun is with more than 10km DR and will be citpened by HEspamingBB  with 1km diff. in DRs

at tier 10 is near the same only there picture about all CAs in general is even worse .

btw im ok BBs to be dominating class after CVs but not by that way....other things should be nerfed/buffed

[Kazomir]

6 hours ago, valrond said:

Dude, tier 10 cruisers are in a very good place, and stats confirm that. In the past two weeks, all except the Minotaur, do 74k-79k average damage, with the Minotaur at 65k. BBs do a bit more damage (around 90k), but compare that simply to tier 8 BBs vs tier 8 CAs. The difference is abysmal.

 Most of this 74 79k damage is fire and 100% repairable compared to BB AP which isnt..