smoke From the Dev Blog... Smoke!

[Kehldon]

Im very curious what these changes are trying to achieve. I dont see BBs and CAs camping in smoke very often and in the those few times, its actually requires teamwork to get effective. Most of the time it end in a catastrophe for BBs when the torps starts coming in. 

 

So from my point of view this only only takes away some of the utility from DDs that actually work for their team and smoke up BBs instead of using it themselves. Instead it promotes BBs camping in the back and sniping since if they move in, they can't utilize team smoke.

 

I know this was a major part of the last ranked season, atleast at higher ranks, but I didn't consider it a bad thing then and I still dont, since it promoted teamplay and I think this game should...

[Azrael_Ashemdion]

13 hours ago, rvfharrier said:

it still takes away from the offensive teamplay utility of smoke which is one of the few areas in this game where teamplay is actually being used.

 

True, for ships in the smoke.  Seems from the sound of it that if the LOS is blocked by smoke and the ship isn't actually in it, from the look of this the ship will remain concealed.  Promotes good driving too ). 

 

  Az

[ScottishSalmon]

Good. This is a positive change. I really hope this changes the gameplay to how it used to be before "my smoke blob vs your smoke blob". Especially in ranked.

 

That being said, this will take some getting used to and cause a fair amount of whining. I think the whole smoke camping thing has been around for so long now a lot of people won't know how to cope without it. 

 

Also, "dark and full of terriers"? Sounds good. 

[Allied_Winter]

First: Thanks for listening to the community with regards to the initial proposal. Also 'Thank you' for bringing it forward and at least trying to work out some kind of talk culture between the devs and the community. Much appreciated and I hope this'll set a trend for future development.

 

Second: The idea is good. Sure it needs some tweaks in regards to numbers, but I like the concept. At first I was a bit hesitant, but Sub_'s explanation made it clearer and I thought it through for my (current) three smoke cruisers:

 

• Kutuzov: 152mm and she'll land somewhere around 5 to 7 km. That's ok (for me). I usually don't smoke up to a target that's closer than 12km to have a chance to escape undetected once the smoke fades (and with MK's range, hitting targets at 15+km was never a problem)
• Fiji/Belfast: Probably the same numbers since 152mm guns. Kinda ok(-ish). Sure lower is better, but it could work and would take the edge off of the payfast without it being a heavy/direct nerf

For DDs it should work fine, but there are still a few questions left to test (can't wait for it to be on the PTS):

 

1. Will this work both ways? Someone mentioned a Minotaur 1v1 against another Minotaur. If one Minotaur smokes up and no hydro or other spotting mechanics are in place: Who spots whom?
2. Yamato in smoke has a huge detection bloom, but what about being behind a smoke? Will it be like in tanks, where you're spotted if you stand in one bush, but can stay unspotted if you 'double-bush'?

 

Greetings

[_Teob_]

Proposed change is good. I don't think cruisers will be affected too much.

 

It does however need to be explained properly. So it needs to be added to the concealment tab in port. 

In fact most mechanics should be explained better but that's a different story.

 

 

[Takru]

8 minutes ago, Teob_VG said:

Proposed change is good. I don't think cruisers will be affected too much.

 

It does however need to be explained properly. So it needs to be added to the concealment tab in port. 

 

Well, it's a rough explanation and by way how it is written it reads as 'just' an attempt for a 'proof of concept' thingy. If it holds water (muh dank puns), I'm sure it'll be explained in depth.

 

10 minutes ago, Teob_VG said:

In fact most mechanics should be explained better but that's a different story.

 

Amen to that.

[anonym_UgMNTuWYVfiQ]

I support this. That thing of 2 to 3 RN CL smoking eachother up is boring as hell. And if there is a BB in the mix the game is totally lost.

[_DeathWing_]

Well at least it's better than the old one.

[Lord_WC]

8 hours ago, Kazomir said:

Yeeeeah....no. no refunds were issued when stealth firing was removed as it is a global change.

 

Sure your premium was nerfed. But so was literally everybody else. So its even.

 

Stating that such a change is a legit reason for refunds is locking the game down for future mechanics changes and possibly even some P2W shenanigans as premiums will not be affected by those changes if they do happen.

Stealth fire was a global change - i.e. same thing for everything.

This isn't. They will independently assign an arbitary amount to each and every ship - they are changing the ship's individual concealment value.

 

Also, I really don't care about prems getting nerfed. I actually think the premium ships (Belfast, MK) will get pretty damn good values since they are armed with low caliber guns.

[Allied_Winter]

4 minutes ago, Lord_WC said:

 

This isn't. They will independently assign an arbitary amount to each and every ship - they are changing the ship's individual concealment value.

 

 

Well that's debatable isn't it? If all 152mm guns get the same 'debuff' then it's only attached to the concealment of the ships. Sure this is a ship dependent value, but since the formula behind it, is the same for all ships, one could argue that this is a global change.

 

Just because the outcome is different for each individual ship, doesn't mean it's arbitrary.

 

 

Greetings

[SBS]

I am sort of trying to figure out if this change only works for ships inside the smoke or also for ships behind the smoke.

 

Cause if it is only for ships inside the smoke circle, then suddenly long streaks of smoke laying (smoke walls) might be more effective than a single little puff of smoke.

Might promote DD to actually lay the smoke in a way that will provide a larger area of cover for the team, rather than just use it for them selves.

 

But I do not know.

And with regards to promoting more active play, this will hardly do it, especially at high tiers. The way the armor mechanic and citadel mechanic is simply just makes bow own and reversing or hugging islands more viable.

As long as citadels and the whole auto bounce/overmatch mechanic exist, the passive bow on tactic we have will allways be the best.

 

I know that this is an arcade game, but gameplay that basicly has nothing to do with real WW2 naval battles/engagements is still kind of stupid for a naval game.

[Listy]

Let me see if I have this right...

 

RN CL's lost their HE, Defensive fire ability and thus their ability to shoot aircraft down (I'm only at T8 at the moment), don't have any survivability or protection and recently got their secondaries nerfed all to get smoke.

 

Now you propose to severely hamper their one defence, just because a tiny fraction of your players in coordinated play are acting  in a way you don't like. Didn't WOT try something similar to pander to the E-sports crowd which failed miserably and irritated a lot of their player base?

 

If you're set on doing such a horrific thing might I suggest you split the Cruisers into CL and CA classes? You don't even need to alter the ships in game. Because at the moment you're trying to implement something that is going to screw over someone in the Cruisers, and it doesn't matter which way you make the mechanics work its going to effect game play for someone. simply because Cruisers are too broad a class at the moment.

[Damanta]

Will BBs get their turning rate reduced? If I am spotted in my Minotaur at 5.6 km, I want to be able to send torps from 6 and actually hit a BB without them dancing around my torps.

Also remove Hydro from german BB's as they will no longer need it to counter smoke.

[Reisen__]

How to unintentional nerf a cruiser line
 

[Boris_MNE]

Yes I love those proposals:

 

1) Nerf smoke to the ground for all classes except DDs and RN Cruisers

2) Remove hydro from german BBs

3) Cut radar range by fair bit and duration!

4) Reduce rudder shift time for BBs

5) Remove BBs fighter planes (no frikking sense one plane to hunt squadron LUL), leave them only spotter planes

 

Lets make this game great again! 

[herrjott]

12 hours ago, BillydSquid said:

...Tuccy illustrated how their idea of how it can avoided in a Minotaur doesn't really work, unless you are very very lucky which is precisely the issue, that their idea stems from a position which they've clearly not thought through properly, and they should be told, and if they want they can take it on board.  

 

4 minutes ago, Damanta said:

Will BBs get their turning rate reduced? If I am spotted in my Minotaur at 5.6 km, I want to be able to send torps from 6 and actually hit a BB without them dancing around my torps.

Also remove Hydro from german BB's as they will no longer need it to counter smoke.

 

When you see a BB pushing within 6 km of your smoke, just stop shooting and he has to close in to 2(3) km, just like it is now.

[Culiacan_Mexico]

15 hours ago, Tuccy said:

As this was a big topic some time ago, let's restart the discussion... And since the old threads were dark and full of terriers, let's restart anew. There will be a new thing coming to tests - discuss! 

 

From DevBlog

 

 

 

 

Respectfully.

----------------

Goal -  This change should make smokes firing tactics less viable for those ships that were not intended for such tactics gameplay-wise: BBs and most cruisers. Additionally, there is more reward for active play and the risk of rushing into enemy smoke.

 

Proposal - Firing from inside the smoke now results in ship-to-ship detection range increase (this type of firing did not influence detection before, and the firing ship stayed permanently concealed). The exact value is calculated for each ship based on its concealment and caliber. Average range is 2.5 km for destroyers, 5.9 km for cruisers and 13,6 km for battleships. Effect duration is 20 seconds. 

-------------------

 

I wonder about the stated goal and the actual proposal, because if the goal is to actually nerf ships without smoke ability, why does the proposal also nerf ships with smoke ability?  In particular, British CL.  The answer that "this isn't that big of a nerf to those ships" doesn't answer the question of why the are being nerfed at all.

[Mr_Snoww]

I think that the ship that lays the smoke should be exempt from these mechanics as this will be a massive nerf to British cruisers. Like bigger than a direct nerf to them which let's be honest it is a direct nerf to them. I play my British cruiser very close to the enemy (the only effective way to play them for any competent player) which would mean my  damage would be drastically reduced as I have to stop shooting when they get within 6km and hope they run into my torps. It will be basically like every ship to rush you is a Kurfürst with permanent hydro on. Which as some of you may know is not fun in a Minotaur. Therefore we need to May British cruisers immune to this nerf otherwise what's the point? Or give them HE back you choose.

[Dean__2]

Smoke should be a zone that reduces spot range after firing no matter if you are in or behind smoke. No planes over head and BBs will still shot at 6km range undetected - this is stupid and have to be fix.

[Kashuken]

1 hour ago, ScottishSalmon said:

Good. This is a positive change. I really hope this changes the gameplay to how it used to be before "my smoke blob vs your smoke blob". Especially in ranked.

 

That being said, this will take some getting used to and cause a fair amount of whining. I think the whole smoke camping thing has been around for so long now a lot of people won't know how to cope without it. 

 

Also, "dark and full of terriers"? Sounds good. 

 

Actually it will do more harm in ranked for teamwork.

 

If you are that DD or even cruiser who has smoke and uses it for your BB to get closer and cause more damage or to push the cap a bit why even [edited]bother? the BB would be spotted in smoke so it is pointless and that DD/CL will use it for themselves.

 

In fact what it will do mostly is either cause BB players to hug the border more and stay away rarther than push anything and tank because with any ranked game you focus fire and the BB which is massive will get hammered with or without support because the best support a BB has of moving up or not getting focused is you guessed it smoke.

 

Randoms no one really cares about, those divisions which use smoke well will be punished, anyone DD who wants to protect BB or even cruisers will realise what is the [edited]point when they get spotted.

 

Ignoring gamemodes this really hurts the RN CL line which frankly has nothing else going for it apart from smoke, concelment, RP, hydro but even then the smoke is 6seconds long and thus is a big target as to where you are so expect torps anyway and turn on hydro but even if you take damage that RP can only do so much and you are glass anyways so citadels for days. Worst thing about it is that you have no HE and second next worst thing is the short range of the guns in general.

 

DD will not bother smoking BB anymore, i [edited]wont what is the point still get seen but that is even if they bother to move up which might be pointless to do anyways.

 

A few more premium CL have smoke, perth, belfast but again short range guns, Kutzov will do okay i feel.

 

Again WG come up with a half arsed mechanic and ruin something, they already have with the stealth fire changes hence why i do not use AFT anymore on most of my ships and that was on DD and now my smoke is being nerfed and any incentive to work with the team is being removed from the game.

[BillydSquid]

24 minutes ago, herrjott said:

 

 

When you see a BB pushing within 6 km of your smoke, just stop shooting and he has to close in to 2(3) km, just like it is now.

 

Pffft. Mino has a detection range of 8.9km and and effective range of 10/12km. Hence you have a 3km window to set up smoke and fire without being detected and mass targeted. 

 

You can maneuver closer inside 8.9km using terrain to block LoS and even risk it when detected, set up smoke and hammer a BB. Risk vs reward, too aggressive and you get caught and deleted, too passive and you don't do much. 

 

The changes simply mean a BB can turn in, bounce the shells and detect you at 5.4km before deleting you with it's forward main guns. So no it's not like it is now at all. Ambush tactics and aggressive positioning using smoke is pointless against a BB with this change. It used to be, a CA which was the biggest threat to Minos, with Radar, Hydro and armour to bounce the shells, not anymore. 

 

One more way to make CA/CLs redundant. 

 

 

[walter3kurtz]

40 minutes ago, Listy said:

Let me see if I have this right...

 

RN CL's lost their HE, Defensive fire ability and thus their ability to shoot aircraft down (I'm only at T8 at the moment), don't have any survivability or protection and recently got their secondaries nerfed all to get smoke.

 

Now you propose to severely hamper their one defence, just because a tiny fraction of your players in coordinated play are acting  in a way you don't like. Didn't WOT try something similar to pander to the E-sports crowd which failed miserably and irritated a lot of their player base?

 

If you're set on doing such a horrific thing might I suggest you split the Cruisers into CL and CA classes? You don't even need to alter the ships in game. Because at the moment you're trying to implement something that is going to screw over someone in the Cruisers, and it doesn't matter which way you make the mechanics work its going to effect game play for someone. simply because Cruisers are too broad a class at the moment.

 

Amen brother! RN CL's get the shaft here, especially the ones that have the guts to play aggressive. Now they are just another class spamming at 15km. How boring  If their range allows it, that is. 

 

Everyone just swap the RN CL's for a Kutuzov, and be done with this whole line.

[RenamedUser_92906789]

43 minutes ago, herrjott said:

 

 

When you see a BB pushing within 6 km of your smoke, just stop shooting and he has to close in to 2(3) km, just like it is now.

 

This just sounds wrong ... on all levels :)

[Reisen__]

in any case it seems WG wants to make smoke a last Resort Defensive tool then a aggressive tool

[RenamedUser_92906789]

Just now, Zero_Strikez said:

in any case it seems WG wants to make smoke a last Resort Defensive tool then a aggressive tool

 

Exactly. Using offensive smokes is almost a death sentence after this.

@SubOctavian .. an no, a player using offensive smoke is not "overconfident" :)