smoke From the Dev Blog... Smoke!

[Earl_of_Northesk]

11 minutes ago, lycea said:

This change discourages aggressive gameplay. It will only result in more passive gameplay 

I doubt that, but we will see. It will force certai ships to keep moving. Bow one, smoked in NC's and Iowa's won't be a thing anymore.

[Bersigil]

1 hour ago, Sub_Octavian said:

Okay, guys. A little update, as I see many similar questions everywhere.

1. No, ships won't be spotted from air this way, and we don't think they should - that would heavily nerf DDs, which is not the goal.

2. This works only for the ship that is shooting main guns when being inside the smoke.

3. This is not being added to any detection, this is your detection. E.g. Akizuki firing from smokes will be visible from any ship with LOS at 2,39 km (and of course it would be from 2 km anyways).

4. Other numbers for example are 2,75 km for Benson, 5,4 for Minotaur, 10,17 for Hindenburg, 17,28 for Montana, 19,27 for Yamato...you get the idea. DDs feel almost zero change, cruisers that are intended to smoke-camp, still can do it, but have to be more careful, cruisers that are not intended to smoke-camp almost cannot do it and BBs just cannot do it, because they are too big to be stealth-smoke-firing.

5. If you are behind a smoke, this does not work (but you can be spotted from air, from sides, etc)...we see there may be some issues here, but for now, we want to check that the whole idea is workable.

6. There is some more stuff to be tested, regarding Radar and IFHE, watch the Dev Blog for the news;)

Cheers!

 

So a Yamato inside the smoke will be spotted from 19km, a Yamato behind the smoke will be spotted from 2km or by air/flanking. THAT part needs some work.
But the rest sounds really good. I think this could be one of the best balancing changes of the past few months.

[DFens_666]

I think German BBs are a bad example here, since their Hydro would work at that range anyway (against RN CAs). The Problem is more like every other BB can do that too. And that they are more easy to get torped doesnt necessarily help. Once again Minotaur is not the best example since it atleast has a lot of torps. Im more concerned about Fiji/Edinburgh with their lousy 3 Torps on each side. Torp dmg on BB nose is usually bad anyway alltho it gets flooding, but doesnt help since i cant fire HE. Then u got the option single launch or normal spread? Normal spread might give u a hit even if he tries to evade but the BB just goes . Single launch might be enough to (almost) kill him but then again its easier to evade with a lil WASD.

 

Once again this is a BB Buff and atleast a CA nerf/Teamplay nerf. How often do u see BBs in Smoke? How often can they even shoot out of that? Lower Tier 2 times, higher Tiers 2-3 times and US Smoke 4 times or 5 really maximum. BBs shouldnt sit in smoke anyway so they dont care. If the opportunity comes around sometimes i shoot from inside or behind the smoke in BB while the 2nd wouldnt even get punished with the change.

Then again if u get a good Teamplayer DD who would smoke u while u play a CA (lately happened to my playing a Roon when several BBs went by) I would have been dead instantly. With the smoke help i could atleast retreat a bit and get some dmg on them.

 

Its hard enough to play RN Cruisers as it is (Hydro/RADAR!, constantly getting torped, blindshots).

[mtm78]

Come on guys at least they are listening and trying sensible stuff  

 

I guess there are no 203mm cruisers which really NEED to camp in smoke blobs always to survive... 5km for a Mino seems ok. But that also means any other 15xmm has that detection penalty ( Kutu, Belfast ) I think I can live with that, it would make it easier for DD's to be useful in smoke meta by not smoking but providing vision for team on smoked up enemies. Enemies still can't look out of smoke without spotters, could be fun. 

 

The thing which will change is teamwork though, though if light cruisers ( and with light cruisers I mean them in the original sense of 15xmm armed cruisers ) can still offensively use smoke to support their destroyers it might actually work. Guess that is what they are going to try and find out. 

 

Whish they would also stop assuming average destroyer captain isn't capable of switching ammo at the right time though. 

[Earl_of_Northesk]

1 hour ago, Ofenkartoffel said:

 

Have not played the Minotaur yet, still grinding towards it. But it seems lackluster at 10+ km. 

If you are going to try to smoke up at 10km distance in that thing, you will have a baaaaad time mate.

[__Helmut_Kohl__]

2 minutes ago, Earl_of_Northesk said:

If you are going to try to smoke up at 10km distance in that thing, you will have a baaaaad time mate.

 

In Fiji you can do this pre-emptive, when they are about to come around a corner. 

Sometimes you can even smoke up bow-on and risk to take a hit. 

[Boris_MNE]

I like changes.

[piet11111]

4 minutes ago, Boris_MNE said:

I like changes.

 

I like pizza so i guess sub_Octavian and Tuccy should buy me a pizza, why you ask ?, because reasons.

 

Ok that might seem hostile and i do not mean it that way but i still like pizza ..... a lot actually..... and now i am hungry.

 

Damn i crave quattro formaggi right now

[PietroMaximoffTR]

But you saw Sub_ said there are more changes regarding radar and IFHE. its engrossing.. lets see.

[BillydSquid]

Just now, Earl_of_Northesk said:

I doubt that, but we will see. It will force certai ships to keep moving. Bow one, smoked in NC's and Iowa's won't be a thing anymore.

 

Then if BBs are the problem, then why not make this applicable to the BBs only ie: guns over a certain calibre? Do CAs need nerfs in the current meta? Really? I think the class is having a hard enough time as it is without getting hit with a nerf stick to bring down their survivability further. 

[TheBigLanowski]

1 hour ago, Sub_Octavian said:

Okay, guys. A little update, as I see many similar questions everywhere.

1. No, ships won't be spotted from air this way, and we don't think they should - that would heavily nerf DDs, which is not the goal.

2. This works only for the ship that is shooting main guns when being inside the smoke.

3. This is not being added to any detection, this is your detection. E.g. Akizuki firing from smokes will be visible from any ship with LOS at 2,39 km (and of course it would be from 2 km anyways).

4. Other numbers for example are 2,75 km for Benson, 5,4 for Minotaur, 10,17 for Hindenburg, 17,28 for Montana, 19,27 for Yamato...you get the idea. DDs feel almost zero change, cruisers that are intended to smoke-camp, still can do it, but have to be more careful, cruisers that are not intended to smoke-camp almost cannot do it and BBs just cannot do it, because they are too big to be stealth-smoke-firing.

5. If you are behind a smoke, this does not work (but you can be spotted from air, from sides, etc)...we see there may be some issues here, but for now, we want to check that the whole idea is workable.

6. There is some more stuff to be tested, regarding Radar and IFHE, watch the Dev Blog for the news;)

Cheers!

 

I really really like these thoughts Sub_Octavian! The changes seem reasonable and you can play around with the different detection ranges if needed.

I for example would have a close look on cruisers because they are so squishy already! Des Moines for example really needs something better than lets say 10km. At least on the first glance, because BBs delete cruisers so easy right now especially a Des Moines or a RN cruiser.

But all in all I would love to test this on the PTS! Way better than the first idea! BBs can use a smoke to hide while waiting for the repair or to turn out safely. I also think this doesn't makes aggressive play obsolete if you are in a BB because you can move up closer for the devastating close range broadside on the enemy ships, tank a bit of dmg for 20 sec and then disappear again in safety if needed..

 

44 minutes ago, rvfharrier said:

 

I still think this is an unnecessary change that will only serve to lower the amount of team play and further promote passive, long range game play. But if it goes ahead, will the spotting work the other way around? A Minotaur is in smoke and is charged by, let's say, another Minotaur. Assuming no other planes or ships are factored into the spotting, is the Minotaur outside of smoke also spotted by the Minotaur inside the smoke at 5.4km if it opens fire?

 

This is an interesting question though and would be good to know! Otherwise the charging chip can just blind fire without getting detected while the smoked up can't!

[Gojuadorai]

2 hours ago, Bersigil said:

Seems like a nice change. But there is something i do not understand:
-is the penalty added to the base detection range? (so: concealed range for a dd is 6km, firing in smoke makes it 8,5 km
-is the penalty applied to the 2km base spotting range every ship has (so our dd would be spotted from 4,5 km?
-is the penalty applied per salvo and resets after 20 secons (so first salvo +2,5, second salvo +5, .... up to max range?
-...

 

yep there are a lot of questions...

 

well i really see the only problem with smokefiring atm in the  highly competetive sector.

which is a problem for the game as no esports scene can deveop from that, so i see why it needs to be fixed.

but in favor of diminishing what little teamplay happens in random games... i dont know if thats healthy for the game either.

 

IMHO i think the solution whatever is chosen should not harm the ship that is deploying the smoke.

there are to many ships involved that are currently balanced just fine, to screw with their main survivability mechanic.

 

imho they shouls not apply any changes to guns below 203mm, above the proposed change is probably just right

 

[edit] also proposed changes mean they yould easily justifyto give a new BB line smokes which woud  be horrible

[Earl_of_Northesk]

18 minutes ago, BillydSquid said:

 

Then if BBs are the problem, then why not make this applicable to the BBs only ie: guns over a certain calibre? Do CAs need nerfs in the current meta? Really? I think the class is having a hard enough time as it is without getting hit with a nerf stick to bring down their survivability further. 

This isn't even in testing yet and you are complaining about specifics....usefullness: zero. If there are issues, they will be solved. If they are not solved, the idea will be scrapped just like the last one.

[mtm78]

Just now, Earl_of_Northesk said:

This isn't even in testing yet and you are complaining about specifics....usefullness: zero. If there are issues, they will be solved. If they are not solved, the idea will be scrapped just like the last one.

 

At least the basic idea is better, it's the details in this one which matter unlike the previous one :D

[Takru]

Just now, mtm78 said:

 

At least the basic idea is better, it's the details in this one which matter unlike the previous one :D

 

You know how things are done.

 

We'll try to break things and see what's left. If there is anything left.

[Boris_MNE]

Just now, mtm78 said:

 

At least the basic idea is better, it's the details in this one which matter unlike the previous one :D

 

But proposed changes are great, now tweaking can be easly done!

[Takru]

1 hour ago, Tuccy said:

If a battleship gets close enough to detect the Minotaur in smoke, it's asking for a face full of torpedoes.

 

 

Damage saturation?

[Kais_S012]

I cant say im sold on this,

 

@Tuccy's rather laughable example (minotaur vs bow in battlesheep) is more of a feble hope than plausable scenario.

Brit Cruisers are hard enough to play as it is. how does nerfing their bread and butter tactics help with the battleship overpopulation issue?

[Earl_of_Northesk]

3 minutes ago, Takru said:

 

Damage saturation?

Also, cruiser still dead.

[Boris_MNE]

Guys to Brit cruisers there could be always special rules.... Same as they dont have HE, they can have exception for this.

Saipan have exception for strafing cost , no planes destroyed.

I see no reason why WG can not adjust this too

[Earl_of_Northesk]

2 minutes ago, Mymeara said:

I cant say im sold on this,

 

@Tuccy's rather laughable example (minotaur vs bow in battlesheep) is more of a feble hope than plausable scenario.

Brit Cruisers are hard enough to play as it is. how does nerfing their bread and butter tactics help with the battleship overpopulation issue?

Is it though? Unless you liked to smoke up in the radar range of the 3 radar ship on the enemy team before, this won't effect you that much (as a DD approaching is pretty much doing a suicide squad against your 5km hydro). If you did like to, it will only marginally worsen your results, really.

[BillydSquid]

19 minutes ago, Earl_of_Northesk said:

This isn't even in testing yet and you are complaining about specifics....usefullness: zero. If there are issues, they will be solved. If they are not solved, the idea will be scrapped just like the last one.

 

Uh-hu given WG's track record of some dubious balance changes, despite opposition, I don't put the same trust in their ideas at the moment. 

 

If your position is that this is a general idea and bringing up specifics isn't useful then this entire threat is a waste of time and should be locked, because people are going to bring up specifics in a thread which relates to such a broad topic and people will go back and forth discussing whether it may or may not affect specific positions and whether it might or might not be a good idea. It's how people reach a conclusion... you know, discussing things, or do you want nodding bobble heads to just simplistically go yes or no? 

 

As harsh as I can be about the current balance change towards smoke, specifically because it hits CAs and DDs harder, Tuccy illustrated how their idea of how it can avoided in a Minotaur doesn't really work, unless you are very very lucky which is precisely the issue, that their idea stems from a position which they've clearly not thought through properly, and they should be told, and if they want they can take it on board.  

 

The idea of stopping BBs bow camping in smoke and firing with impunity is sound, I don't have a problem with that or in that this change affects BBs, but I'd like them not to use a sledge hammer to crack a nut however and hit everything else in the process. 

[Shirakami_Kon]

Hmm... So no real hope for less smoke at high tiers, but well, if DDs don't pay unnecesarily for this is fair enough.

 

This brings me a question though, I assume the answer is "yes", but I'll ask it anyways, maybe I'll get  a certain response hopefully. If you spot a ship in smoke does to the extended detection range do you still spot him for the rest of your team? (Or maybe "because it's smoke" the only that sees the ship in smoke is the one doing the actual spotting?).

[Unintentional_submarine]

Well... this outline is similar to the OMNI suggestions after the legendarily bad smoke proposals we saw before.

That means WG is listening, if only to a degree. That should be encouraged. I am of course a bit apprehensive, as I fear this will hurt ships that really don't need it, and it might hurt teamplay. But these changes I'm willing to test as they don't stand out as simply bad. They could be good, and my fears could very well be unfounded. Thus I need to see this.

[Kashuken]

3 hours ago, Tuccy said:

As this was a big topic some time ago, let's restart the discussion... And since the old threads were dark and full of terriers, let's restart anew. There will be a new thing coming to tests - discuss! 

 

From DevBlog

 

ST, Smoke mechanics update.
Firing from inside the smoke now results in ship-to-ship detection range increase (this type of firing did not influence detection before, and the firing ship stayed permanently concealed). The exact value is calculated for each ship based on its concealment and caliber. Average range is 2.5 km for destroyers, 5.9 km for cruisers and 13,6 km for battleships. Effect duration is 20 seconds. This change should make smokes firing tactics less viable for those ships that were not intended for such tactics gameplay-wise: BBs and most cruisers. Additionally, there is more reward for active play and the risk of rushing into enemy smoke.

 

 

 

This is getting worse tbh and more so for the RN Cruisers which are already glass, have no HE and rely on smoke in getting into good positions and being able to do maximum damage.

 

I mean you already managed to ruin stealth firing and replaced it with the utter crap mechanic of 20second bloom for all ships even for DD who are a 1/5th of the size of the BB with small guns.

 

This was to punish BB but really it is punishing everything else but BB and also making teamwork pointless again and smoke meh.

 

I mean who has a problem with smoke? oh yea BB players and god knows how tbh, smoke has enough counters such as Radar, Hydro, torps and even 'blind firing' which is not blind if you know what you are doing.

 

With the change just rush smoke now bow on and rape because you spot them earlier when they fire and if they already used torps they are defenceless.

 

1 step backwards and another 3 for good measure.