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Take a gander at this:

 

Overconfidence.jpg

 

One Bismarck AP shell hits me (Z-23) for 7.656 damage.

No, I didn't detonate (I survived that game, despite the game cheating!).

 

Bismarck deals 11.600 alpha damage for citadel penetration, 3828 normal penetration and 1160 for an overpenetration. 7656 is precisely 2 x 3828, ergo two normal penetrations worth of damage. Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't a normal penetration work as in you hit a ship and the shell detonates anywhere inside that isn't a citadel hitbox, right? If so, how did that one shell manage to detonate twice, assuming it ceases to exist after hitting and detonating a target. How on earth did I suffer the equivalent of two normal pens with only one shell?

 

Might I suggest someone look at the hit/damage calculation code to see what the hell happened there? And then (the gall of me asking for this) maybe, just maybe ... FIX THAT!? Alternatively, if I'm wrong and everything is working as intended™, would someone have the grace and explain to me where that second penetration is supposed to come from, that'd be real nice.

 

BB AP is plenty nasty enough against DDs as it is, I'd prefer them not somehow getting a 2x damage boost out of nowhere.

 

 

 

kthxfixplzbai

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Well you see the world is round, so it overpenetrated and then flew around the world a few times, hitting you on each pass, before finally detonating.

 

Either that, or you must have been using some engine boost III consumable, which made you so fast that as you were escaping the gunfire and drifting from side to side a little, one AP shell was going as fast as you and you collided with it a few times, before detonating eventually.

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13 minutes ago, SmartassNoob said:

Well you see the world is round, so it overpenetrated and then flew around the world a few times, hitting you on each pass, before finally detonating.

 

Either that, or you must have been using some engine boost III consumable, which made you so fast that as you were escaping the gunfire and drifting from side to side a little, one AP shell was going as fast as you and you collided with it a few times, before detonating eventually.

 

I know this is sarcasm, but I'll use it as an entrée anyway:

I've heard/read about quirky hit scenarios where a shell pens a part of a ship, the ricochets off another layer of armour, exits the ship's armour and then happens to hit another part of the ship again where it finally detonates. But those scenarios rely on the shell to overpenetrate, ergo remain in one piece to trigger the overpen damage hit before also triggering a normal pen hit.

 

But that couldn't be the case here, since we have two normal pens worth of damage, ergo two shell detonation (which would require more than one ordnance duh). So unless the hit and damage calculations of this game work on some completely different, esoteric logic, this should simply be impossible.

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Well, considering we already know that the ribbons we see about pens, overpens, ricochets and such we see sometimes fail for some reason and they don't show what really happened... My guess is that somehow all those "unexplainable things" happen because the detailed report maybe does something dumb from time to time? :Smile_hiding:

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Its an old bug. For a time, after some armor-"fixings" it was much more common though. It got increasingly rare as of late. It existed in multiple variants with citadels (only cit ribbon shown) dealing citadel + regular pen, overpens actually dealing 2x overpen, etc. It appeares to be shells hitting multiple hitboxes and the server therefore registering damage for each.

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5 minutes ago, SHDRKN4792 said:

Well, considering we already know that the ribbons we see about pens, overpens, ricochets and such we see sometimes fail for some reason and they don't show what really happened... My guess is that somehow all those "unexplainable things" happen because the detailed report maybe does something dumb from time to time? :Smile_hiding:

 

I would have to agree, many times I get dmg without ribbon, and we are talking AP shells, so no splash, o rbetter said, considering the game, it should have no splash.

For all we know, water splash from AP does damage...

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1 hour ago, Aotearas said:

 

I know this is sarcasm, but I'll use it as an entrée anyway:

I've heard/read about quirky hit scenarios where a shell pens a part of a ship, the ricochets off another layer of armour, exits the ship's armour and then happens to hit another part of the ship again where it finally detonates. But those scenarios rely on the shell to overpenetrate, ergo remain in one piece to trigger the overpen damage hit before also triggering a normal pen hit.

 

But that couldn't be the case here, since we have two normal pens worth of damage, ergo two shell detonation (which would require more than one ordnance duh). So unless the hit and damage calculations of this game work on some completely different, esoteric logic, this should simply be impossible.

Yeah that case would be a 0.43 damage shell, not a 0.66 shell like here. It shouldn't be possible. Well, technically speaking the 0.43 shouldn't either and we really only have the community's own speculations to go on as nobody ever stepped forward and tried to explain what is going on. At best we have gotten a few "well it might be the markers" or "that could be some hitbox issues", but never anyone coming out and saying "ok, this is what happened, the shell did this and that so it ended up causing X" which is really what we are looking for... hoping for. They did it in the past for crazy things such as an IJN cruiser getting a citadel on a Yamato shooting from the rear into the superstructure with AP (apparently the smokestack can direct shells downward through the armoured deck).

 

This should qualify for an explanation. @Sub_Octavian

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10 minutes ago, Unintentional_submarine said:

This should qualify for an explanation. @Sub_Octavian

Lemme help the poor guy.

 

It's gonna be looked at, and will be remedied about mid 2018.

That is, if you all still remember.

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7 hours ago, Aotearas said:

Correct me if I'm wrong,

 

 

Sure thing, you see the damage model in this game is broken since forever. I have opened up a thread on that matter every other quart to half a year. WG doesnt give a smelly fart about it. Recently they are BSing people with water-hits-that-arm; which might be the case but the multi-hit from one shell is still a ongoing problem - and has been for a long time. Its god damn bugged, but WG doesnt care - never has. 

 

Of one of the few games in BBs I played since my break I remember derping a Aoba with 9 overspens (Fuso) - It did around 19 k damage. Everyone of them hits (over)-penned exactly two times. Probably over penned the citadel and the rest of the ship. Multi-pass-through en mass if I ever saw one:

 

giphy.gif

 

Theres even the "King of Pens": A citadel, a regular pen and a overpen at the same time. 

Thats not the highest damage one tough: I personally confirmed a Cit + 2 reg pens - on one shell.

So far no upper limit has been confirmed with complete certainty, but for example: I have never seen 2 citadels from 1 shell.

 

Fun and engaging crap like that is the reason cruisers can easily die to just 2 shells from a same tier battleship.

 

 

The thing is: It doesnt require hitting the water first - this multipen BS can happen on any ship - but there are a few particularities about it:

 

- never seen it with HE (might just have not noticed it tough - since you tend to look for when it happens with AP and its huge damage numbers).

- negatively affects mostly DDs and cruisers (surprise!).

- benefits mostly BBs (even bigger surprise:Smile_smile:).

 

This has been known since release, probably way back into alpha when they introduced the actual armor-model - and they have done nothing.

 

In short: Consider yourselves lucky! - you dont have a citadel in that DD and thus missed out on the "additional 150 % of the fun".

 

Meanwhile, what WG considers really important: Anti-cruiser-torpedoes! We need those! And oh, nerf smoke!

 

 

btw: If you want proof - search my older threads on that matter if they are still available after all the updates.

 

 

 

5 hours ago, Unintentional_submarine said:

This should qualify for an explanation. @Sub_Octavian

 

 

They have been given that chance countless times all over again. Experience tells us theres nothing to be gained from that, other than get yourselves more BSed upon. I still remember the smoke scandal and how they reacted to proof - brought to them by even their own STs no less.

 

Honestly I hope he stays away. I have managed to stay out of Marvins thread and refrained posting there when S_O was just BSing him with skewed numbers (yeah like including T1-2 battles with its "overpopulation of cruisers and DDs" and more, but I dont know if I can if he shows up here, because I already involved myself.

 

Dont get me wrong, I can see your point - but I dont want a explanation thats likely 100 % BS and trying to deceit people (again), but rather to have it fixed in a fair time frame.

 

Like 1 year after open beta started - would that be fair? To bad thats over a year ago. In total they had well over 3 years. What is supposed to happen if we give them another 3 years? Well extrapolating the past into the future: Nothing.

This basically shows you, you need to change things up: Give the current guys a mop*1) and point them to a suitable floor and look for new people. You might have to pay them extra to even get involved in this mess tough .......

*1): Or just leas them to another company: I hear they are (still) building a airport in Berlin, Germany  and they are outrageously well suited for that project! :Smile_trollface:

 

 

If you really want, I can BS you all real fast and even for free:

 

Our data shows (we dont know what tbh, we just make something quickly up to tell people - just like with the smoke-scandal:) us it happens extremely rarely (on T1, because there, only BS can fire AP) and we consider it not gamebreaking (but then again we consider BBs in general, Nicolai, Belfast and so on just fine too). We will look into it (but when it comes to do something about it, we quickly avert gaze) and keep you all updated (when hell finally freezes over).

 

Oh and something about another DD and cruiser nerf which is totally necessary because they still do above 0 % of all the damage to BBs.

 

 

Better?

 

€: Nearly forgot:

 

7 hours ago, Aotearas said:

No, I didn't detonate ....

 

...... this might be the real issue at hand! Hopefully you did file a bug report, right?  :Smile_hiding::Smile-_tongue:

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3 hours ago, Aotearas said:

(...)

One Bismarck AP shell hits me (Z-23) for 7.656 damage.

No, I didn't detonate (I survived that game, despite the game cheating!).

(...)

 

Don't be silly. It first overpenetrated 3.3 of compartements and then detonated. Obviously. :Smile_trollface:

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5 hours ago, Aotearas said:

BB AP is plenty nasty enough against DDs as it is

 

It is.

Clearly I got too overconfidentTM.

Spoiler

gq2k5ux.jpg

 

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Only 4k? Those 5+ k hits (depends on the ship obviously) are the usual in a cruiser - and you can consider yourself lucky for not outright citadel.

 

Meanwhile: That NO did 460.   "Cruiser counter DDs"TM , right?  

 

 

You know whats really getting on my nerfes? WG constant BSing.

 

Take a look at this situation: Yeah cruisers fire twice a fast, but usually can only use their HE? Why? Because WG has buffed DD armor to be able to bounce cruiser AP, but not BB AP.  Dont believe me? How about the 19 mm of high tier DDs? 272 mm are required to overmatch - Scharnhost 280 mm will do, but all (except Spee ofc) cruisers can go screw temselves. Meanwhile in the usual broadside situation, cruiser AP is just a likely to just overpenn ...... (with only a 1/3 of the base damage rating of BB ofc)

You would think WG would use this instead to let heavy cruiser use AP and over match and get rep pens in between, while light cruiser have to use fast firing HE because their AP will bounce, but no, ofc not.

 

A Montana does 13,5 k with its AP, means a reg pen is 4500  and a overpen 1350. AP can do multiple pens and  ofc get regularly devastating reg pens. AP overpens dont care about saturation either.

 

Meanwhile cruiser AP is worthless  unreliable at best, and when I look at HE, even the ZAO which is known to have excellent HE (and a similar number of barrels) has 3400 damage rating - but since no citadels on DDs its 1133 at best. But you got to put up with all kinds of BS like saturation. If you shoot mostly DDs you gonna end up 500-600 dmg on avg. per hit in a Zao - thats still worse than a Monatana firing half as fast and ONLY scoring overpens.

 

 

And thats the T 10 cruisers - those have at least mostly good arcs. If you want to shoot a DD that is 11 km out, would you want a shell that reaches that in 3-4 times the DDs ruddershift? Or would 1-2 be more suitable? And dont give the BS about dispersion, at 11 km BBs are close enough to hit accurately while too good dispersion actually can work against a cruiser: BB will blot a area with deadly unavoidable ap, meanwhile its entirely possible to dodge all tight grouped shots aimed slightly differently from 4 x 3 gun turrets of a cruiser. Well maybe not all of them, but you need like 4-6 cruiser hits to make up for the average BB hit anyway.

 

So shooting a DD? You want to be close up with a light fast firing cruiser (which puts you into extreme danger of getting crippled by one or dying to just 2 torps - or outright deleted because torp threat can force you to show broadside to the BBaby camping in the back and just waiting for you) or much rather at medium range with a BB and blast from safety protected by armor, hp pool, heal etc?

 

 

tl;dr?

WG has been proven to react really fast when cruiser are not shitty enough and are actually able to use their guns for anything than to give BBs ez 3 mio potential damage, but then when it comes to just set BB AP to only overpenn on DDs only (simple solution which is still more than enough damage), or you know, actually switch ammotype - they suddenly cant remember how to do it? Sure ........

 

  tenor.gif

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Internal armour layout at its finest. Each ship has 4 HP blocks IIRC (1 at bow, 1 at stern and 2 in the midship). If the shell somehow manages to pen 2 blocks in one pass, its dmg will be counted 2 times.

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Thank you for bringing up this topic with a good example. I am sick and tired of being smashed by BB AP in my DD. It is crazy how accurate BB guns suddenly get against small targets, all in the name of RNG. When sailing a BB you can seriously damage a destroyer at range, but shooting a larger target, you think all you shots are on it, only to get one or two hits for low damage........RNG strikes again as the shell dispersion very high..... 

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10 hours ago, Aotearas said:

Take a gander at this:

 

Overconfidence.jpg

 

One Bismarck AP shell hits me (Z-23) for 7.656 damage.

No, I didn't detonate (I survived that game, despite the game cheating!).

 

Bismarck deals 11.600 alpha damage for citadel penetration, 3828 normal penetration and 1160 for an overpenetration. 7656 is precisely 2 x 3828, ergo two normal penetrations worth of damage. Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't a normal penetration work as in you hit a ship and the shell detonates anywhere inside that isn't a citadel hitbox, right? If so, how did that one shell manage to detonate twice, assuming it ceases to exist after hitting and detonating a target. How on earth did I suffer the equivalent of two normal pens with only one shell?

 

Might I suggest someone look at the hit/damage calculation code to see what the hell happened there? And then (the gall of me asking for this) maybe, just maybe ... FIX THAT!? Alternatively, if I'm wrong and everything is working as intended™, would someone have the grace and explain to me where that second penetration is supposed to come from, that'd be real nice.

 

BB AP is plenty nasty enough against DDs as it is, I'd prefer them not somehow getting a 2x damage boost out of nowhere.

 

 

 

kthxfixplzbai

 

If I renember correctly german Ships (so DDs too) take additional damage from APs. I don't know how it works exactly though but maybe it is something ridiculous like a times 2 multplikator?

Other than that i have no clue and must go with the "two Pens because of the Damagesections" theory.

 

Spoiler
7 hours ago, havaduck said:

 

 

Sure thing, you see the damage model in this game is broken since forever. I have opened up a thread on that matter every other quart to half a year. WG doesnt give a smelly fart about it. Recently they are BSing people with water-hits-that-arm; which might be the case but the multi-hit from one shell is still a ongoing problem - and has been for a long time. Its god damn bugged, but WG doesnt care - never has. 

 

Of one of the few games in BBs I played since my break I remember derping a Aoba with 9 overspens (Fuso) - It did around 19 k damage. Everyone of them hits (over)-penned exactly two times. Probably over penned the citadel and the rest of the ship. Multi-pass-through en mass if I ever saw one:

 

giphy.gif

 

Theres even the "King of Pens": A citadel, a regular pen and a overpen at the same time. 

Thats not the highest damage one tough: I personally confirmed a Cit + 2 reg pens - on one shell.

So far no upper limit has been confirmed with complete certainty, but for example: I have never seen 2 citadels from 1 shell.

 

Fun and engaging crap like that is the reason cruisers can easily die to just 2 shells from a same tier battleship.

 

 

The thing is: It doesnt require hitting the water first - this multipen BS can happen on any ship - but there are a few particularities about it:

 

- never seen it with HE (might just have not noticed it tough - since you tend to look for when it happens with AP and its huge damage numbers).

- negatively affects mostly DDs and cruisers (surprise!).

- benefits mostly BBs (even bigger surprise:Smile_smile:).

 

This has been known since release, probably way back into alpha when they introduced the actual armor-model - and they have done nothing.

 

In short: Consider yourselves lucky! - you dont have a citadel in that DD and thus missed out on the "additional 150 % of the fun".

 

Meanwhile, what WG considers really important: Anti-cruiser-torpedoes! We need those! And oh, nerf smoke!

 

 

btw: If you want proof - search my older threads on that matter if they are still available after all the updates.

 

 

 

 

 

They have been given that chance countless times all over again. Experience tells us theres nothing to be gained from that, other than get yourselves more BSed upon. I still remember the smoke scandal and how they reacted to proof - brought to them by even their own STs no less.

 

Honestly I hope he stays away. I have managed to stay out of Marvins thread and refrained posting there when S_O was just BSing him with skewed numbers (yeah like including T1-2 battles with its "overpopulation of cruisers and DDs" and more, but I dont know if I can if he shows up here, because I already involved myself.

 

Dont get me wrong, I can see your point - but I dont want a explanation thats likely 100 % BS and trying to deceit people (again), but rather to have it fixed in a fair time frame.

 

Like 1 year after open beta started - would that be fair? To bad thats over a year ago. In total they had well over 3 years. What is supposed to happen if we give them another 3 years? Well extrapolating the past into the future: Nothing.

This basically shows you, you need to change things up: Give the current guys a mop*1) and point them to a suitable floor and look for new people. You might have to pay them extra to even get involved in this mess tough .......

*1): Or just leas them to another company: I hear they are (still) building a airport in Berlin, Germany  and they are outrageously well suited for that project! :Smile_trollface:

 

 

If you really want, I can BS you all real fast and even for free:

 

Our data shows (we dont know what tbh, we just make something quickly up to tell people - just like with the smoke-scandal:) us it happens extremely rarely (on T1, because there, only BS can fire AP) and we consider it not gamebreaking (but then again we consider BBs in general, Nicolai, Belfast and so on just fine too). We will look into it (but when it comes to do something about it, we quickly avert gaze) and keep you all updated (when hell finally freezes over).

 

Oh and something about another DD and cruiser nerf which is totally necessary because they still do above 0 % of all the damage to BBs.

 

 

Better?

 

€: Nearly forgot:

 

 

...... this might be the real issue at hand! Hopefully you did file a bug report, right?  :Smile_hiding::Smile-_tongue:

 

Hahaha thanks Hava for that post! I like that movie and had to laugh again at that Multpassjoke. Also Good written post - totally agree. (+1 rep)

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This is 4 HP sections on your ship. If the shell can pass 2 sections in one pass it wll deal dmg 2 times (20% if an overpen followed by an overpen, 43% dmg if an overpen followed by a pen, 66% dmg if a pen followed by a pen). If there is a saturated dmg section, the normal dmg will be halfed (16,67% insetead of 33%) but the overpen dmgwill stay at 10%)

YEIy5yq.jpg

 

More reading here :

https://forum.worldofwarships.eu/topic/25214-dealing-damage-in-wows/

 

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I think Op is into something there . I think we all should check our results after matches and post them here . Lol i had a Situation where a Conq fired at my Saint Louis (T9 French Ca) .The Shell displayed hit actualy went through the rim of my Deck  at rear from above . It went right through the upper rim  of the side away from the Conqueror. Saw it over penning and hitting water . All other splashed around me and guess what happen CIT hit for 14900. So either the display showing me where the Shell hitted is wrong or something fishy is going on with RNG .

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5 hours ago, lup3s said:

 

It is.

Clearly I got too overconfidentTM.

  Reveal hidden contents

gq2k5ux.jpg

 

have You replay?

 

clasic:

AMAGI AP max. DMG = 12 600

Penetration DMG = 12 600 * 0,33 = 4 158 

Overpenetration DMG = 12 000 * 0,1 = 1 260

AMAGI player see = ribbon Overpenetration, what is only first part of multiple hit from one shell

but  DMG 5 418 = OP 1 260 + PEN 4 158

pen 4 158 = 2 079 from Body + 2 079 from Bow or Middle

 

Yamato AP max. DMG = 14 800

PEN  DMG = 4 884

OP DMG = 1 480

Yamato player see = ribbon Overpenetration, what is only first part of multiple hit from one shell

but  DMG 4 280 = OP 1 480 + PEN 2 800 

pen 2800 = 2 442 from body + 358 from Bow, Stern or Superstructures

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Those forumlars are nice but i think what op ment is how can one bullet get hot  twice . If it pens first section and det in 2nd ok but he ment the Shell detted 2 times from what the dmg showed . Still nice Formulars.

But i had also funny Scenarios like hitting a York with HE Shell from a Scharnhorst  doing exactly 22k dmg (destroyed a AA Mount no he did not detotnated) . Now the funny part Comes after match i looked up the Details and they Say 22  k dmg but not hit 0 . Probaly a hickup in Rng  never happend ever again after the Yorck Player and Ireported it to Support with Screenshots .

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DMG explanation, each shell

video

https://ulozto.net/live/!2tID3LjU1ILC/no-gaede-4554-explanation-avi

 

DMG Explanation with commnetary

Spoiler

zz_NO_gaede_explain_pic_4554_ok.thumb.jpg.c93664e4335d1d0139686939679f6461.jpg

---

2. video

https://ulozto.net/live/!fx5dSZg8JjEz/no-gaede-3036-explanation-avi

3. video

https://ulozto.net/live/!cPaDg5cay00S/no-gaede-2438-explanation-avi

 

DMG explanation, each shell

Spoiler

zz_no_gaede_tab_2x_expl_OK.thumb.jpg.9a62982c5c875a92c30d568caa2cde7c.jpg

 

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M8ii all nice THx for the formulars but what OP ment is how can . ONE SHELL DO TWICE THE PEN DMG after the FIRST PEN DMG IT SHOLD BE GONE CAUSE IT EXPLODED . NOT a OVER PEN + PEN DMG thats Legit but 2 TIMES PEN dmg the only Scenario i could think of  it  detonated right at the border of 2 Hit boxes  getting both in Det range .

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