Another Nail

[bouncer8409]

Hi all

I just watched Notser video on British BB conqueror, as a mainly CA/CL player i feel this line of BB are another nail in the coffin of cruisers. A detection range on a tier 10 BB of 11.1km !!!!!!!!!! On what planet is that a good idea then ? We are now gonna see even less cruisers being played due to them now being outspotted by BB and deleted. This is a REALLY bad idea from where i stand. Cruisers can be very hard to play in the current meta due to massive hits from BB and now some cruisers can be outspotted by BB's, here come the insta delete games,,,,great !

What are your thoughts captains ?

[HotshotJimmy]

More worried about the smoke nerf that might be coming atm. I'll still play all the RN ships whether its the Conq or the Mino. 

[Tungstonid]

At first I thought you were speaking about a full stealth build BB but after having a quick look at the video ...

I am personally not a fan even of the current possible stealth builds some BBs can have and this looks close to insane. I am curious wether this is still subject to change and what (if any) characteristics justify this low detectability.

 

[Aotearas]

My opinion: if it wants to be as stealthy as a cruiser, it also has to be as squishy as a cruiser.

 

If WG wants to introduce battleships that outspot half the cruisers, I'm fine with it as long as it can be deleted by said cruisers as easily as it can delete them.

If not, BS.

 

It's funny enough that the Moskva has worse detectablity than most BBs, but at least it's somewhat understandable (because that Moskva is a monstrously huge sucker!) albeit I'd still say for the sake of gameplay balance she'd do with a concealment buff. The fact the Conquerer would be stealthier than half the tier X cruisers and with its heal could simply ambush those in open waters, smack them aside with a broadside or two and then just heal back most of the damage those poor cruisers managed to deal in their death throes is just laughable.

 

A BB should win a fair and square 1vs1 against a cruiser. But the cruisers' ability to detect a BB and decide to not pick the fight has always been the cross-class balancing aspect. DDs are then supposed to counter that ability in turn with their own superiour stealth that allows them to spot cruisers for allied BBs. What the hell happened to the cross-class balance here?

[bouncer8409]

This whole thing seems so wrong to me, as i said it is another reason NOT to play cruisers, why take a cruiser which can be outspotted and deleted by BB when you can take a BB that does everything a cruiser is supposed to excell at but with huge guns and loads of armour. Not good at all !

 

[RUSSIANBlAS]

Isn't Mosvka essentially a Battlecruiser?

 

11.1 km detection for Conqueror sounds stupid. Although it might be fun to use...

[Armorin]

I really don't understand the idea of stealth BB's full stop.

[indycar]

it flew out the window long ago

[VeteranGamer84]

I think WG is trying to make people pay money for free xp'ing the RN BBs and when that line gets old (like many other ships) WG will nerf the concealment to maybe to 13.8 km like Moskva.

[RUSSIANBlAS]

7 minutes ago, Armorin said:

I really don't understand the idea of stealth BB's full stop.

 

Well there was USN BB, then the Tirpitz, now RN BB... Guess it's here to stay.

 

WG want you to obliterate cruisers from 13km then slip back into cloak like a Star Trek spaceship. Not a simulator remember 

 

[cro_pwr]

edit: mistake...

 

but yea, that concealment is BS...
And on top of that, you will have the best HE spammer in the game, with insane fire chance and great HE pen. Thats exactly what this game needed, a freaking HE spamming BB with heal to negate every bit of damage cruiser can do to him.
GJ WG, you really know what to do with your game.

[Armorin]

I started to lose interest in WoT at T4 when I found it was difficult to penetrate a T5, nevermind a T6.

In WoWS, the tier difference is not such a big problem. But the BB's OP'ness above mid-tier is probably going to have the same effect.

[Unintentional_submarine]

Someone needs to make a video of a CONQ popping up at 11km blapping someone with this sound. Preferably using the victim's perspective.

[Vaderan]

If you want to discuss this matter seriously, start considering all aspects, not just simply those which appear to be a justification for some premature cryout.

As has been mentioned, those 11,1km detection range were a stealth build. To go for, other, more BB suiting perks/aspects have to be neglected. Next, in terms of BB-scales, RN BBs are designed more squishy than other BBs. Less HP, huge superstructures which make for ideal targetting practice and barbecue. They might be able to repair plenty of damage, but they will aswell take more damage than their counterparts.

11,1km detection range sounds like a big deal for a BB, but on the other hand, it has to remain quiet for all the time, while "sneaking" up to the enemy. It will just simply be more easy to stay in a closer combat range than other BBs and still take advantage of "cloaking" abilities.

Talking of range: the community was always complaining about BB campers and snipers, and BBs not going for a brawl.

If, at all, players of RN BBs will decide to go brawling (which i doubt, cause BB), what do you expect from WG?

The last BB line implemented with the idea to enforce brawling BBs, were the germans. Not as stealthy, but with strong secondary guns for brawling support. CA and DD lobby started a shitstorm, complaining and stuff, and WG started tinkering around.

Now, with the fourth BB tree arriving, WG pondered, how they could make them attractive for brawling again. Secondaries were no option, radar and stuff has been targets of lobby-shitstorms aswell, so WG went for the stealth approach.

What choice did they had?

Does anybody in here, in all it´s fanboyism, seriously beleave, that the BB meta and player behaviour will change, if there are no reasons for BBs to move into close combat/brawling range?

Does anybody beleave, BBs would work just a simple XP pinjatas and cash cows? BBs are already the borderhuggers and campers, afraid of torpedo walls and HE spam/barbecue.

If anybody decides to go for a stealth build with his BB, go and be happy. Celebrate and salute! That player might actually consider to stay with his cruisers and DDs, staying with the pack, not camping behind. If that player is on the red team, be still happy. Because, maybe you will find him within the frontline, exposing his ship to your fires and torpedoes, instead of just sitting back and harrassing you with inaccurate, but area of effect long range fire. He will present a target which you can fight back!

Yes, you will find those players who abuse that stealth to be even harder to detect at long range, but those players are just annoying, and no threat in therms of superior skills. Just as annyoing as any other player in any other ship, who abuses tactics and playstyles considered wrong.

 

Yes, the situation is pretty delicate for cruisers, and the BB population is problematic. But threads like this won´t do any better to this game. Threads like this have turned the game into what it is, ever since alpha. Into something that made a steep descent since it´s first moments, and with an even further descent ahead.

But why? Because any lobby, may it CV, BB, DDs or cruisers, always just knows to complain about the OPness of the other classes, with only the lobby´s class being the one inferior. But instead of coming around with constructive feadback and a productive exchange, how to improve balance, how to make the game more skill based and less a lottery, all that happens are complains and demands for nerfs. With all this, WG had to loose track of it´s ways and concepts.

Yes, cruisers need to be put back into the game as THE bread and butter class. But it won´t happen just with the demand of any kinds of nerfs to the class, placed as their counter: the BBs. Because nerfs to BBs will cause demands for nerfs on other classes aswell. Just like buffs.

Instead, classes need to be more balanced by the skills required, with cruisers the most accessable class to play, and BBs a very challanging class to play.

Just as it worked with the carriers. They still are powerfull, but the skill requirement is that high, that their numbers were reduced just by this factor. The same has to happe to BBs. Make the rewarding, but demanding. Not this ridiculous "spray´n pray" class.

 

If that can be accomplished, the balance will return to the game from alone, because most players simply go for the easy rewards. With BBs scoring the occasional citadell every ten salvos from 20km range, those patatoes are happy with their rewards. This needs to be adressed.

 

As a last remark: cruisers need the ability to make the decision, weather they want to take the fight against a BB, or not? Great idea (sarcasm!)!

BBs are still the class to counter cruisers. If they could choose, where to fight and when to fight their counter, they will most likely always choose to run.

Just imagine a BB player expressing the request to be able, when to choose a fight against a DD, or not! You would not know wether to laugh at him or call him crazy...

 

[El2aZeR]

Let me begin this by saying that you have no idea what you're talking about. Seriously, the amount of ignorance you're displaying is immense.

 

4 hours ago, Vaderan said:

As has been mentioned, those 11,1km detection range were a stealth build. To go for, other, more BB suiting perks/aspects have to be neglected.

 

No, concealment equals survivability and first strike ability. There is nothing more suitable when your ship, even a BB, permits using it effectively. Heck, the entire idea of high tier USN BB gameplay is based around stealth. There is nothing else to give up, nothing to trade-off. It is best-in-slot, no other build comes even close to the general utility a full stealth build provides.

 

4 hours ago, Vaderan said:

RN BBs are designed more squishy than other BBs. Less HP, huge superstructures which make for ideal targetting practice and barbecue.

 

Huge superstructure? It's actually fairly standard. Is distributed fairly wide across the hull but is very compact length-wise. Not that it matters much because the entire hull aside from the belt is 32mm strong, making her vulnerable to HE shells.

Oh, wait, the entire hull is 32mm strong? Doesn't that simply mean that Conqueror can simply bow tank like the rest of them? She also has a total citadel armor of at least 324mm, that is a lot more than Monty has on her lower belt. And unlike with Monty said citadel is completely submerged, making it a very hard target. Concealment and better heal on the other hand mitigate the weaknesses of both HE vulnerability and "low" HP pool. In fact, Conqueror may have by far the most practical survivability of all T10 BBs, combining excellent concealment with excellent recovery. To say that she's going to be an easy target and fast to take down reeks of ignorance.

 

4 hours ago, Vaderan said:

The last BB line implemented with the idea to enforce brawling BBs, were the germans. Not as stealthy, but with strong secondary guns for brawling support. CA and DD lobby started a shitstorm, complaining and stuff, and WG started tinkering around.

 

"Tinkering around" is a nice term for "one insubstantial nerf" (Bismarck hydro nerfed to regular hydro). KM BBs are still in their current broken state, offering massive advantages with no real weakness. Heck, the last fix actually demanded friggin' compensation for some reason. Were DDs compensated when they lost stealth fire to an actual design choice? Was Cleveland compensated when they fixed her broken, basically non-existent citadel? Yet for some reason fixing the fire chance on KM BB secondaries demands a range buff.

 

4 hours ago, Vaderan said:

Does anybody in here, in all it´s fanboyism, seriously beleave, that the BB meta and player behaviour will change, if there are no reasons for BBs to move into close combat/brawling range?

Does anybody beleave, BBs would work just a simple XP pinjatas and cash cows? BBs are already the borderhuggers and campers, afraid of torpedo walls and HE spam/barbecue.

 

No. On the other hand such players will never stop camping regardless of what tools you give them as proven by KM BBs. This is a player issue, not something you can encourage by giving their favorite class more and more tools which are then exploited to the extreme by the more skilled playerbase. These players are afraid of things such as "torpedo walls" and "HE spam" because they suck at the game. Unless you start addressing that, giving BBs more and more tools to work with will just exacerbate other problems while solving none.

 

4 hours ago, Vaderan said:

If anybody decides to go for a stealth build with his BB, go and be happy. Celebrate and salute! That player might actually consider to stay with his cruisers and DDs, staying with the pack, not camping behind.

 

Those who actually choose a stealth build for a BB are more likely to be of the more skilled playerbase anyway. Which potato in their right mind chooses stealth when there are, in the words of scrubs as you pointed out, "more BB-like skills" out there to take?

 

4 hours ago, Vaderan said:

Threads like this have turned the game into what it is, ever since alpha.

 

Woah, yeah, threads like these. OP roughly said "this is a bad idea imo" and even politely asked for thoughts. The vast majority of posts in this thread are of constructive nature (agreeing on it being a bad idea as well as giving reasons why), joking (cloaking device) or stating the truth (Conqueror effectively takes over the roles of cruisers with none of their drawbacks). There is literally no whining at all until your post. Pot calling the kettle black much?

 

4 hours ago, Vaderan said:

The same has to happe to BBs. Make the rewarding, but demanding. Not this ridiculous "spray´n pray" class.

 

So you're against nerfs for BBs (because apparently nerfing BBs will result in more nerfs to other ship classes, which in your mind made sense), yet in the same breath demand nerfs for BBs to make them more demanding to play.

I don't even...

 

4 hours ago, Vaderan said:

As a last remark: cruisers need the ability to make the decision, weather they want to take the fight against a BB, or not? Great idea (sarcasm!)!

 

Not everything is decided in the whole "who counters who" scheme. A class' firepower is also in direct relation to how easy it is to avoid it. Just look at CVs. Massive burst damage potential, yet countered by the most basic of teamplay. A skilled CV player will fail at striking a group of capital ships as equally as the greatest potato in this game, because there is literally nothing to be done skill-wise. It is simply impossible.

Another example? Torpedoes hold massive damage potential, yet basic application of WASD will prevent them from hitting you no matter how skilled the one launching them is.

Likewise a BB holds the ability to delete or do massive damage to cruisers (and really anything that is not another BB). That this ability cycles every thirty seconds and is by far the most reliable burst damage mechanic is just the icing on the cake. However this also means a cruiser should have an equally easy time to prevent that from happening. This is currently by the means of concealment. Take that away and the entire system crumbles faster than the cookie I've had this morning.

 

4 hours ago, Vaderan said:

Just imagine a BB player expressing the request to be able, when to choose a fight against a DD, or not! You would not know wether to laugh at him or call him crazy...

 

Global inclusion of Situational Awareness basically did this. We're far too late to call someone who suggests this crazy, because it has already been done.

 

Tl;dr: You have no idea what you're talking about. You're also a hypocrite. Go l2p.

[159Hunter]

@El2aZeR thanks for that in depth response. So glad I didn't have to do this, must have taken you a while

A few more addons to @Vaderan:

- Please tell me which are the BB upgrades/skills a real BB captain should pick, if not full concealement ( genuine question, I want to know what you'd pick )?

- Yes, they might be a bit more squichy than other BB ( have yet to test how well you can hit their citadel up close, my guess is not ) but they are still far more tanky thank CA and yet they get a better concealment than said CA. Does that sound okay to you?

- In essence a BB that forces people to switch ammo according to the situation is a great idea. Unfortunatly a lot of people playing this game are clueless and will just happily go for the constant HE spam with it ( cause you know, it has the best BB HE ) ( how many times I've been these last weeks in my broadside DM by Bismarcks firing HE volley after HE volley is beyond my believe ... ).

[Xevious_Red]

Im in two minds.

In the hands of a skilled player they'll be pretty damn scary - low concealment, lol pen HE volleys, zombie heal.

 

In the hands of an average player I actually think there'll be lots of complaints about them being UP - low (for a BB) health, derpy arcs at range, doesnt have the AA fortress of the monty so more vunerable to planes, less torp belt and no hydro so more vunerable to torps.

 

I suspect when they come out we'll see two distinct thread types, like we did with the RN cruisers: the "WTF this is broken OP" from good players/people who have encountered good players, and the "WTF y u hate RN WG, these sux" from the average/below average

[_DeathWing_]

I think RN BBs will be bigger pain for other BBs. 

[svadilfari]

no idea what WG´s thinking with those ultra stealth battleships. even the iowa with 12.2km is just dumb. now the RN BBs outstealth the majority of tier 8-10 crusiers? does this make sense to anyone?

[BadGene616]

It's not a new problem, though it is an extreme representation of this.

 

Why is it a problem? Very simple.

 

It removes the ability of a cruiser or DD to control the range of the engagement. Especially at higher tiers where the speed differential is minimised.

 

Another bit of BB favouring crap game design.

 

Short of hiding behind an island and spamming, or sitting in smoke, there is no instance when a cruiser can engage a BB and it cannot retaliate lethally.

 

Given BB range, the reciprocal is not true.

[Guillotine]

Size should matter in terms of stealth, if the thing is bigger than cruiser it should be less stealthy.

 

If BB size object can sneak up to 11km, why shouldnt cruisers be able to sneak up to 7-8km?

[Strapps]

My thoughts are that I'm not going to make any judgements before they come into the game as I can only go on received opinions and I've seen enough of those in WoT to know that what looks on paper to be OP often turns out to be average at best. Every (p)review I've watched also says that the enhanced heal is going to be adjusted before launch so that's another thing I'm not going worry about for now.

[Aotearas]

4 hours ago, El2aZeR said:

Let me begin this by saying that you have no idea what you're talking about. Seriously, the amount of ignorance you're displaying is immense.

 

 

No, concealment equals survivability and first strike ability. There is nothing more suitable when your ship, even a BB, permits using it effectively. Heck, the entire idea of high tier USN BB gameplay is based around stealth. There is nothing else to give up, nothing to trade-off. It is best-in-slot, no other build comes even close to the general utility a full stealth build provides.

 

 

Huge superstructure? It's actually fairly standard. Is distributed fairly wide across the hull but is very compact length-wise. Not that it matters much because the entire hull aside from the belt is 32mm strong, making her vulnerable to HE shells.

Oh, wait, the entire hull is 32mm strong? Doesn't that simply mean that Conqueror can simply bow tank like the rest of them? She also has a total citadel armor of at least 324mm, that is a lot more than Monty has on her lower belt. And unlike with Monty said citadel is completely submerged, making it a very hard target. Concealment and better heal on the other hand mitigate the weaknesses of both HE vulnerability and "low" HP pool. In fact, Conqueror may have by far the most practical survivability of all T10 BBs, combining excellent concealment with excellent recovery. To say that she's going to be an easy target and fast to take down reeks of ignorance.

 

 

"Tinkering around" is a nice term for "one insubstantial nerf" (Bismarck hydro nerfed to regular hydro). KM BBs are still in their current broken state, offering massive advantages with no real weakness. Heck, the last fix actually demanded friggin' compensation for some reason. Were DDs compensated when they lost stealth fire to an actual design choice? Was Cleveland compensated when they fixed her broken, basically non-existent citadel? Yet for some reason fixing the fire chance on KM BB secondaries demands a range buff.

 

 

No. On the other hand such players will never stop camping regardless of what tools you give them as proven by KM BBs. This is a player issue, not something you can encourage by giving their favorite class more and more tools which are then exploited to the extreme by the more skilled playerbase. These players are afraid of things such as "torpedo walls" and "HE spam" because they suck at the game. Unless you start addressing that, giving BBs more and more tools to work with will just exacerbate other problems while solving none.

 

 

Those who actually choose a stealth build for a BB are more likely to be of the more skilled playerbase anyway. Which potato in their right mind chooses stealth when there are, in the words of scrubs as you pointed out, "more BB-like skills" out there to take?

 

 

Woah, yeah, threads like these. OP roughly said "this is a bad idea imo" and even politely asked for thoughts. The vast majority of posts in this thread are of constructive nature (agreeing on it being a bad idea as well as giving reasons why), joking (cloaking device) or stating the truth (Conqueror effectively takes over the roles of cruisers with none of their drawbacks). There is literally no whining at all until your post. Pot calling the kettle black much?

 

 

So you're against nerfs for BBs (because apparently nerfing BBs will result in more nerfs to other ship classes, which in your mind made sense), yet in the same breath demand nerfs for BBs to make them more demanding to play.

I don't even...

 

 

Not everything is decided in the whole "who counters who" scheme. A class' firepower is also in direct relation to how easy it is to avoid it. Just look at CVs. Massive burst damage potential, yet countered by the most basic of teamplay. A skilled CV player will fail at striking a group of capital ships as equally as the greatest potato in this game, because there is literally nothing to be done skill-wise. It is simply impossible.

Another example? Torpedoes hold massive damage potential, yet basic application of WASD will prevent them from hitting you no matter how skilled the one launching them is.

Likewise a BB holds the ability to delete or do massive damage to cruisers (and really anything that is not another BB). That this ability cycles every thirty seconds and is by far the most reliable burst damage mechanic is just the icing on the cake. However this also means a cruiser should have an equally easy time to prevent that from happening. This is currently by the means of concealment. Take that away and the entire system crumbles faster than the cookie I've had this morning.

 

 

Global inclusion of Situational Awareness basically did this. We're far too late to call someone who suggests this crazy, because it has already been done.

 

Tl;dr: You have no idea what you're talking about. You're also a hypocrite. Go l2p.

 

Quoted for truth and emphasis.

 

The part about sacrificing captain skills for stealth is partilcularily hilarious. Not only is a basic stealth build the bread and butter for every BB, but what other captain skills would anyone choose that he couldn't afford Concealment Expert?

Fire Prevention? The lolheal on RN ships is powerful enough to heal all firedamage from what, two, maybe even three, full fires in one charge? Those BBs never have to DCP fires if they want to get their credits' worth out of their heal in the first place.

Manual Secondaries? RN BB secondaries are meh and the ships aren't designed to brawl against other BBs for any amount of time that would make a secondary build worthwhile.

Manual AA? RN BB DP AA is meh. The hightier RN BBs in particular have almost ALL of their AA dps in the midrange 40mm Bofors (the Conqueror manages over 500 dps). You get more AA dps using Basic Firing Training than you get from manual AA control.

IFHE? AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

 

 

Typical RN BB build will look like this:

Priority Target -> Expert Marksman -> Super Intendant -> Concealment Expert .> Advanced Firing Training -> Jack of all Trades -> Three point captain skill of choice (BFT for ludicrous AA dps, BoS for reduced fire and flooding duration or Vigil for enhanced torpedo beats) or Adrenaline Rush plus one point captain skill of choice (PM or CFDC).

Expert Marksman can also be forsaken in favour for Adrenaline Rush and maintain the option for a second three point captain skill if a player feels like he doesn't necessarily need the faster turret traverse.

 

Either way, there is nothing you would choose over Concealment Expert that would make any sense! Unless you're the kind of special player that has to put Survivability Expert on his BBs for that extra 3500 HP at tier X ...

[AnotherDuck]

Almost as stupid as radars, especially radars on battleships or destroyers.

 

BB claims they want to reduce the number of battleships, and yet they keep pulling stunts like this, which obsoletes cruisers step by step. Cruisers don't have the firepower, range, armour, or healing that battleships do, and now they don't have the stealth either? So cruisers are slightly faster. Sure, the cruisers with excellent stealth are still a little better, but compared to the huge advantages battleships have, it's marginal at best.

 

WG is actively developing World of Battleships, not World of Warships, and if you want the best ships, you better fork up some cash.

[Bersigil]

Thing is this: if a BB "decloaks" 12 km broadside of a cruiser and opens fire, the cruiser is most likely dead within less than 10 seconds. A cruiser cant fight its way out of this situation.
And no, this is not comparable to a DD being 7km away from a BB and in stealth. Torpedoes need just a little more time to travel and simple wasd-hacks helps against them. No chance for something similar for the cruiser against the BBs