The "new" Grozovoi

[_Teob_]

2 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

 

I disagree. Gearing excels at knife fighting if you build her for it. 1v1 she can destroy any opposing DD at close range except Khaba (and perhaps Grozo? Haven't encountered one after the buff yet). She can even take down Khabas in the right circumstances as your high DPM combined with AP can actually burst her down very quickly, although that's no easy feat and requires at several things to go your way, namely:

- Khaba has to stay at knife fighting ranges (which is easier than it sounds considering Khaba can simply kite away with her superior speed, easiest way to achieve this is to ambush via islands or attack when Khaba is near one and has no choice but to let you close the distance or do that itself)

- Khaba needs to broadside constantly (this happens very often, though)

- Khaba does not throw torps

(This is not an endorsement to attack any Khaba you find, usually that will end up with you returning to port very quickly, but keep in mind that you can take a Khaba one on one if the conditions favor you.)

 

AP salvos against a broadsiding Khaba exceeding 3-4k damage aren't uncommon at close range. Heck, you can even burst down some cruisers with citadel hits if you get the drop on them. And while your shell arcs are a liability rather often, it does allow you to abuse almost every island as cover and rain down a fiery rainbow on BBs.

 

Also sub 2s reload is hilarious when AR kicks in.

 

I mean sure... but then you can't really do anything else. And if you want to go Khaba hunting, get a z52, get close, drop smoke + hydro (torps not an issue anymore) and you do 5k AP salvos on its broadside.

A full gun specced Gearing will kill a Grozo, I think. If the Grozo doesn't run away or simply smoke up and disengage. Even at range the amount of shells the Gearing can put out is scary. But at 8km obviously, the Grozo will win easily.

 

And if I am perfectly honest, I think that any Khaba with half a brain will just turn after the first AP salvo and then ruin your Gearing. 

 

But if you do build it for guns alone then you might as well take a Grozo instead. I mean if you give up the torpedoes, what do you have?

[El2aZeR]

59 minutes ago, Teob_VG said:

I mean if you give up the torpedoes, what do you have?

 

More team utility with long duration smoke + DFAA instead of "just" DFAA?

That's pretty much it I believe. Gearing occupies a small niche, no doubt, but it's imo a pretty fun niche to fill.

[KaraMon]

Gearing have much better gun layout than Fletcher . If you are forced into chasing someone even at close range (for example z46 fights runing away) You can go straight after them and still shoot , to use Fletcher guns you can't chase anyone . But those are small differences between Gearing and Fletcher, i didn't like Fletcher mostly because of this gun layout and i like Gearing .

 

Now back to Grozovoi , my main concern is the fact that in t10 DD you either non stop spam shells at enemies like Khaba or Udaloy or you torp them to be effective , Grozo can't really do any of this . In z52 guns are very bad so torp reload was only option and it is very good , Gearing does not need anything more to guns than BFT so torp reload is best choice. Now with Grozo you either spec for guns that are hard to use and you can't spam everything like Udaloy/Khabarowsk or you spec for torp reload which is still not so good and lose a lot of gun power . I do not like it

[Hugh_Ruka]

On 7/28/2017 at 7:53 PM, Desteban said:

Thats why I wrote "on paper"

 

Tashkent fully equiped on dpm is better (in a knife fight) than Grozovoi. 

Tashkent: 21800hp + 3640 (repair)

Grozovoi: 20900hp

 

Tashkent has better rudder and is faster. This all helps in dodging shells and increasing your odds of winning.

Overall the dpm is important but it won't outright win you a gunfight.

I had a long example with lots of calculations but actually the point should be clear by now. Repair Tashkent is infinitly stronger due to more HP

and easier time dodging shells than Grozovoi. The focus on the dpm was about Tashkent being a vaild DD hunter since the dmg she can

output is enough to reliably kill another DD in a fight. I know close up you won't dodge many shells but each shell you can avoid already

helps. At the end of the day Tash has more HP before and after the fight compared to Grozovoi. 

 

hmm ... Tashkent has better rudder ? where did you see that ? I do not think wargaming wiki is always 100% accurate (cannot use the game client now) but it shows otherwise.

 

Grozovoi has 3375 dps vs Tashkent 25440 hp that's about 8 seconds for the Tashkent to live given 100% damage

On the other hand, Tashkent is fully capable of killing the Grozovoi in those 8 seconds (it will get exactly 2 salvos worth 22800 damage)

 

However Grozo has the better shell velocity, so given all the other differences, Grozovoi is clearly better on paper (I have tried to dodge Khabarovsk shells that are a bit slower in a Tashkent and I was consistently nailed from 12km away by the Khaba, so dodging Grozo shells is harder). And as a last nail, Tashkent has worse turret traverse, so it cannot use as aggresive dodging as the Grozo or it will not track the enemy.

 

[Desteban]

5 hours ago, Hugh_Ruka said:

 

hmm ... Tashkent has better rudder ? where did you see that ? I do not think wargaming wiki is always 100% accurate (cannot use the game client now) but it shows otherwise.

 

Grozovoi has 3375 dps vs Tashkent 25440 hp that's about 8 seconds for the Tashkent to live given 100% damage

On the other hand, Tashkent is fully capable of killing the Grozovoi in those 8 seconds (it will get exactly 2 salvos worth 22800 damage)

 

However Grozo has the better shell velocity, so given all the other differences, Grozovoi is clearly better on paper (I have tried to dodge Khabarovsk shells that are a bit slower in a Tashkent and I was consistently nailed from 12km away by the Khaba, so dodging Grozo shells is harder). And as a last nail, Tashkent has worse turret traverse, so it cannot use as aggresive dodging as the Grozo or it will not track the enemy.

 

 

You actually had me look both ships up in port and you are right about the rudder. 4.8 sec vs 4.6 with 20% rudder module. Tashkent even has a 730m vs 720m turning

radius on Grozovoi. I am a bit suprised because ingame the difference in turning those ships is like day and night so I just assumed rudder has to be better???

Point is, dpm seems to be good on Grozovoi but she just eats dmg while Tashkent has more HP and can dodge better. With expert marksman Tashkent

can't out turn her own turrets anymore :)

[Hugh_Ruka]

9 hours ago, Desteban said:

 

You actually had me look both ships up in port and you are right about the rudder. 4.8 sec vs 4.6 with 20% rudder module. Tashkent even has a 730m vs 720m turning

radius on Grozovoi. I am a bit suprised because ingame the difference in turning those ships is like day and night so I just assumed rudder has to be better???

Point is, dpm seems to be good on Grozovoi but she just eats dmg while Tashkent has more HP and can dodge better. With expert marksman Tashkent

can't out turn her own turrets anymore :)

 

That EM are 2 points that you can spend into other things on the Grozovoi :-) 1/2 of Concealment Expert :-))

[Desteban]

On 1.8.2017 at 7:59 AM, Hugh_Ruka said:

 

That EM are 2 points that you can spend into other things on the Grozovoi :-) 1/2 of Concealment Expert :-))

yeah Grozovoi and Tashkent have different cpt skills :)

[Titan_net]

I hate Grozovoi right now.. after getting destroyed by a lexington.. after shooting down 21 of his planes and running out of dfaa consumables. How difficult can it be to design a bloody destroyer that doesn't get f**ing owned by the first random CV looking for an easy target?

 

Rant aside I don't understand why anyone would want to play Grozotub.. and buffing concealment? Seriously? How is that helping a ship that should never go within 7/8km of enemy dds?

[El2aZeR]

1 hour ago, Titan_net said:

How difficult can it be to design a bloody destroyer that doesn't get f**ing owned by the first random CV looking for an easy target?

 

This is like asking WG to design a BB with radar and/or hydro.

Oh wait. 

 

Seriously though, if you ran out of DFAA charges and still haven't sought cover then you have horribly misplayed and deserve to die.

[Titan_net]

13 hours ago, El2aZeR said:

 

This is like asking WG to design a BB with radar and/or hydro.

Oh wait. 

 

Imo it is asking to give Grozovoi a more useful corner in the game since trying to use its "powerful AA suite" will only result in an annoyed enemy carrier deleting it. Radar is acutally a good idea .

 

 

13 hours ago, El2aZeR said:

 

Seriously though, if you ran out of DFAA charges and still haven't sought cover then you have horribly misplayed and deserve to die.

 

[_Teob_]

On 8/4/2017 at 9:48 PM, Titan_net said:

How is that helping a ship that should never go within 7/8km of enemy dds?

 

Why shouldn't the Grozo get within 7/8km of enemy DDs?

[G01ngToxicCommand0]

5 hours ago, Teob_VG said:

 

Why shouldn't the Grozo get within 7/8km of enemy DDs?

Indeed why should it not be able to?

I researched and bought t he Grozovoi yesterday and it is perfectly fine as a cap contester, not as good as a Gearing set up to maximise gunpower for cap contesting but close.

[_Teob_]

7 minutes ago, atomskytten said:

Indeed why should it not be able to?

I researched and bought t he Grozovoi yesterday and it is perfectly fine as a cap contester, not as good as a Gearing set up to maximise gunpower for cap contesting but close.

 

And nobody should set up a Gearing as a full gun boat. If they do, you can just smoke and then gtfo safe in the knowledge that they won't really be able to contribute too much to the game and, if you catch them at like 7-8km, you will farm them for free xp.

 

Gearings are always set up for torps with very little into guns - not even BFT most of the time...

[Titan_net]

5 hours ago, Teob_VG said:

 

Why shouldn't the Grozo get within 7/8km of enemy DDs?

 

Of course it's an oversimplification but Grozovoi isn't good at disengaging from a battle or at evading torps spammed from close range. So why risk it when you can spend you time far better by shooting things from range?

[G01ngToxicCommand0]

3 minutes ago, Titan_net said:

 

Of course it's an oversimplification but Grozovoi isn't good at disengaging from a battle or at evading torps spammed from close range. So why risk it when you can spend you time far better by shooting things from range?

Because there will be times where the Grozovoi is the only viable DD on the team that can contest objectives and it is strong enough to wipe the floor with any DD under its own tier.

[Titan_net]

Just now, atomskytten said:

Because there will be times where the Grozovoi is the only viable DD on the team that can contest objectives and it is strong enough to wipe the floor with any DD under its own tier.

 

Because it will likely loose a large part of its HP to random fire from other enemies while doing it. So why not take a dd that is meant for sneaking and/or knife fighting or at least crazyinyourface like Khaba?

 

Maybe I just don't get it.. but for me it it just the odd brother of Udaloi.

[G01ngToxicCommand0]

2 hours ago, Titan_net said:

 

Because it will likely loose a large part of its HP to random fire from other enemies while doing it. So why not take a dd that is meant for sneaking and/or knife fighting or at least crazyinyourface like Khaba?

 

Maybe I just don't get it.. but for me it it just the odd brother of Udaloi.

I guess it is a matter of playstyle

[El2aZeR]

11 hours ago, Teob_VG said:

And nobody should set up a Gearing as a full gun boat.

 

Meh, I do just fine with it. Why set up a Gearing for torps when you can simply use a Fletcher with much better results?

[_Teob_]

3 hours ago, El2aZeR said:

 

Meh, I do just fine with it. Why set up a Gearing for torps when you can simply use a Fletcher with much better results?

 

I agree!

Which is why I wouldn't use a Gearing currently.

[Basti542]

You can use Grozovoi easy as a gunboat. I do it - and it works fine. I play it like a Tier 10 Udaloi - Smoke Firing, Torpedos - but with better Concealment and better Torps. 120k dmg in the last 60 days, so dmg is okay. But the real Problem - you can´t carry Games like the Khaba. But it is a good Tier 10 Destroyer - if you like the Udaloi, you will like the "new" Grozo.

[KaraMon]

On 8.08.2017 at 5:34 AM, El2aZeR said:

 

Meh, I do just fine with it. Why set up a Gearing for torps when you can simply use a Fletcher with much better results?

 

1. Dpm on Gearing is good enough that you need BFT only, no need for gun reload module , obviously you put torp reload

2. When you have torp reload module torp reload skill is useful too

3. Long range torpedos are quite useful when you know how to use them  , Fletcher is awesome when torping single target but Gearing is awesome when dealing with enemy blobs

4. I for example did not like Fletcher, gun layout is bad for me , i prefer DD hunters not pedo boats

5. Fletcher is awesome torpedo boat with good guns, Gearing is awesome gunboat /duelist/ cap contester with good torpedoes

 

Back to Grozo , after some time it got back to rusting in my port , still feels underwhelming compared to Gearing or Z52

[Hugh_Ruka]

On 8/9/2017 at 1:33 PM, Basti542 said:

You can use Grozovoi easy as a gunboat. I do it - and it works fine. I play it like a Tier 10 Udaloi - Smoke Firing, Torpedos - but with better Concealment and better Torps. 120k dmg in the last 60 days, so dmg is okay. But the real Problem - you can´t carry Games like the Khaba. But it is a good Tier 10 Destroyer - if you like the Udaloi, you will like the "new" Grozo.

 

I love the Udaloi, I even bought the perma camo for it ... I cannot get the Grozovoi to work. I tried the stealth build, but in that case I have only 11km gun range and still only 10km torps, so I cannot be effective outside radar range.

 

As a gunboat, you are much bigger and less agile than the Udaloi, with less range, basically you are cover/smoke dependant in that case (have not tried it yet, but does not look promising). This however works against your flat shell arcs as you cannot shoot over cover very well.

 

still on the fence with it ... I have to try a few setups, maybe I will find a good one ...

[donarkaz]

Grozovoi sadly cannot be a god gunboat. It has a not impressive 13.2 km gun range (compared to 14.5-15 km of its predecessors at Tier 9!!!) which is a HUGE deal, AND it's HUGE in size which makes you a HUGE target easily pennable by any sort of BB AP and anything else. You will suffer.

 

You have to play this ugly boat as a stealthy cruiser and be very cautious when using your guns. You will REARLY want to use your guns when you're outside of your smoke.

[RUSSIANBlAS]

Ah the T10 DD debate...

 

I have them all other than Shima.

 

I'm a big fan of Grozo, i don't even take AFT and use her as a traditional DD as 6km concealment is actually pretty good and you eat most other DDs at mid range.

 

Strangely I'm indifferent to the Z52 even though it's all round pretty damn strong. Something to do with the 1500 damage HE which really hurts your DD dueling.

[dasCKD]

14 hours ago, Negativvv said:

Strangely I'm indifferent to the Z52 even though it's all round pretty damn strong. Something to do with the 1500 damage HE which really hurts your DD dueling.

You don't DD deul in the Z-52, you hide behind a smoke screen and bully enemy destroyers.