The "new" Grozovoi

[RambaRal]

Hello Captains,

I was interested in the buffs that Grozovoi recieved in the last patch. In her present status Grozovoi looks like a 90% copy of Gearing, so I was wondering if now she can be used in the same way.

I can assign to her a 15 points captain, whose skills are as follows (2 still to be assigned):

http://shipcomrade.com/captcalc/1000000000000001010000100000000119

 

Final programmed build:
http://shipcomrade.com/captcalc/1000000000000011010000100000001119

 

About modules the choice is pretty straightforward as, despite choosing AA consumable, I'm not buffing the AA skills of the ship:

Main Armament mod 1
Aiming SYstem 1
Torpedo Tube Mod 3
Propulsion Mod 1
Stearing Gears 2
Concealement System 1

 

As an alternative I may consider replacing the slot 4 module with the Premium Engine Boost Mod to gain 12 minutes of turbo speed. But, as the aim is to play it as cap contester I don't know how useful it may be, considering that with flag she already has 40ish knots speed; also I would have to drop the Prop mod 1 and it may be dangerous in medium-to-close ranged fight.

 

Now you came into play: has anyone tried the Grozovoi since the last patch? According to your experience, is my plan viable or am I missing something that will sink my ship and my project hardly?

 

Thank you! 

[_Teob_]

I am not a fan of your spec.

 

I run a full gun spec on my Grozovoi (and have done so since before the patch) - I think my results in it are quite decent.

 

This is what I run

http://shipcomrade.com/captcalc/1000000000000011010010000000100119

 

If you want to contest caps, then the Z52 is a much better choice. 

[RambaRal]

Thank you for the feedback, so your suggestion is, despite the changes, to stick with usual Grozevoi gameplay as a mid-to-far distance gunboat.

 

About Z-52 you are definitely right and I'm 40.000ish XP far from her 

[El2aZeR]

Honestly, why play the Grozo at all? From a purely statistical point of view I don't see why anyone would play a Grozo over her contemporaries.

Cap contester? Z-52 is best.

Gunboat? Grind a Khaba instead.

Hybrid? Gearing seems to be a better choice.

Torp boat? Get a Fletcher. Or if you feel a tad masochistic, Shima.

 

The only thing Grozo truly excels at is AA and that's only if you fully spec for it, giving up almost everything else. Even that you could technically speaking do with USN DDs with largely the same effects and get better utility to boot.

So, anyone care to enlighten me?

[RambaRal]

4 hours ago, El2aZeR said:

Honestly, why play the Grozo at all? From a purely statistical point of view I don't see why anyone would play a Grozo over her contemporaries.

Cap contester? Z-52 is best.

Gunboat? Grind a Khaba instead.

Hybrid? Gearing seems to be a better choice.

Torp boat? Get a Fletcher. Or if you feel a tad masochistic, Shima.

 

The only thing Grozo truly excels at is AA and that's only if you fully spec for it, giving up almost everything else. Even that you could technically speaking do with USN DDs with largely the same effects and get better utility to boot.

So, anyone care to enlighten me?

 

Good point, the answer is... boredom and curiosity :P . That and the fact that, as apparently i cannot Khaba, I wanted to try a RU DD whose characteristics suddenly became more similar to the ones of the ships I manage to play decently.

Got all the others you mentioned, made exception for Z-52 but it's just a matter of days with it.

 

 

[Hugh_Ruka]

Hmm ... looks like Ognevoi MK II now. I did not realize that the concealment spec is that good. However your build does not make much sense :-)

 

Keeping the gun range low is a good idea (I did the same on Ognevoi and it works quite well for self defense). However I do not see a point in Radio Location when you are missing any kind of usefull gun bonuses. I'd drop DE as your range is very low for it to be effective much and invest those 3 points into BoF. I am undecided on the HP skill. While it might be usefull, you already have the most HP of your tier except Khaba (and that one has even more effective HP given the armor scheme), so buffing the HP if your trade is stealth does not seem usefull. I'd move that into either Vigilance or TAE.

 

The last skill I do not like is AR but that's just me :-)

[_Teob_]

15 hours ago, El2aZeR said:

Honestly, why play the Grozo at all? From a purely statistical point of view I don't see why anyone would play a Grozo over her contemporaries.

Cap contester? Z-52 is best.

Gunboat? Grind a Khaba instead.

Hybrid? Gearing seems to be a better choice.

Torp boat? Get a Fletcher. Or if you feel a tad masochistic, Shima.

 

The only thing Grozo truly excels at is AA and that's only if you fully spec for it, giving up almost everything else. Even that you could technically speaking do with USN DDs with largely the same effects and get better utility to boot.

So, anyone care to enlighten me?

 

It's better than the Gearing. Its guns reach out to a very respectable 13.2km. I only use them from smoke/cover or on stuff that is busy with other things. It's not a Khaba.

But the Guns + smoke = reliable damage from a safe range. You cannot really smoke like before in the Gearing (at like 8km) because there are too many radar ships in play, not to mention all the hydro boats. So you need to be able to smoke at 10km+ and still land shells reliably - the Grozo excels at that.

 

As far as torpedoes go, yes, they are shorter range than the Gearing's and have less dmg but you don't really launch torpedoes from further than 10km anyway and they have a shorter base cooldown than the Gearing's, weirdly enough. 

 

Properly specced there is also no DD apart from the Khaba that can deal with it in open waters. It will monster any Gearing that tries to fight it because of gun accuracy, and Z52s unless they hydro+smoke are just appetizers before your main meal of BBs.

 

And don't discount the AA - the spec I use is naturally very AA heavy due to a focus on the guns. This puts my AA rating on 61. This is more than enough to make sure that no CV hovers your planes over your smoke because you will shoot them down and when you pop def AA, it becomes a very scary AA platform. Anything not a Midway or to a lesser extent an Essex will steer clear of you.

 

It is also much faster than the Gearing. The extra 3.5kn are actually quite important and mean that it feels like a DD rather than a tug boat (which is what the Gearing feels like). Throw in a speed flag over that and you're at over 41kn. This is decent speed and allows you to dodge incoming fire at 12km+ if you want to play it more like a Khaba. It's the second fastest DD at t10.

 

And its guns are phenomenal. Once you try them out all other guns feel worse, including cruisers. The shell velocity is exceedingly good and they are pin point accurate and have a very good fire chance. If any BB tries the whole bow on tanking thing, you just pop a smoke at like 10-11km away from it and you will kill it very fast indeed without anyone being able to do anything about it. It's difficult to dislodge something spamming you from smoke from next to its BB line.

 

Lastly the health pool is very good. You get to 24.400 hp with survival expert. That is a lot of health that enemies have to chew through.

 

So the Grozo actually excels at a lot of things. It feels like the smoothest DD experience right now to me. Nothing feels particularly clunky about it, except maybe the turning circle but no ship is perfect. When comparing it to the Gearing think of it this way, they are both hybrids, the Gearing leans toward torpedoes, the Grozovoi towards guns. Guns are more reliable and can be used on anything while torpedoes are terrible against cruisers and DDs.

 

TL;DR: Fast, stealthy, great guns, great AA, gun-focused hybrid DD.

[RambaRal]

Thank you all for your feedback guys, and for the detailed insight. I will respec according to the build you suggest Teob_VG, so at the moment, wi it will be something like this:

http://shipcomrade.com/captcalc/1000000000000001010010000000000119

I will run her full flagged, so + fire chance, + AA, + speed and so on.

 

Lets see if I manage to feel with her the spark that I'm not able to have with Khaba.

[_Teob_]

26 minutes ago, RambaRal said:

Thank you all for your feedback guys, and for the detailed insight. I will respec according to the build you suggest Teob_VG, so at the moment, wi it will be something like this:

http://shipcomrade.com/captcalc/1000000000000001010010000000000119

I will run her full flagged, so + fire chance, + AA, + speed and so on.

 

Lets see if I manage to feel with her the spark that I'm not able to have with Khaba.

 

Try to get AFT before BFT. It's very important.

 

If you want to talk more about how I play it, send me a PM in-game. I am usually happy to spend 15-20 minutes to explain my reasoning and then you can decide if my play style is for you.

[El2aZeR]

20 hours ago, Teob_VG said:

It will monster any Gearing that tries to fight it because of gun accuracy, and Z52s unless they hydro+smoke are just appetizers before your main meal of BBs.

 

How does Grozo fare against a Gearing in a knife fight after the buff btw? Obviously Gearing will still lose at range as it does to pretty much anything that is not constructed of nippon steel folded 1000 times (and even that can be spotty), but I imagine it will still win in a knife fight due to superior DPM?

[_Teob_]

3 hours ago, El2aZeR said:

 

How does Grozo fare against a Gearing in a knife fight after the buff btw? Obviously Gearing will still lose at range as it does to pretty much anything that is not constructed of nippon steel folded 1000 times (and even that can be spotty), but I imagine it will still win in a knife fight due to superior DPM?

It depends.

I would give it to the Grozovoi if it's fully gun spec'd. I mean even at close ranges the Gearing guns will occasionally miss. And When you don't miss, it's difficult to aim at the exact spots you want to hit. That is obviously not the case with the Grozovoi - at 6km you can hit the knob off a fly if you want to, let alone target unsaturated sections of the Gearing.

 

But it's a close fight. That's if the Gearing has survival expert. Otherwise you just kill it and are left with like 7k hp or so.

[Desteban]

4 hours ago, El2aZeR said:

 

How does Grozo fare against a Gearing in a knife fight after the buff btw? Obviously Gearing will still lose at range as it does to pretty much anything that is not constructed of nippon steel folded 1000 times (and even that can be spotty), but I imagine it will still win in a knife fight due to superior DPM?

 

Had a knife fight at 5km with Gearing the other day, we were both angled but used all our guns I guess.

I survived with 4k, we both started with full hp. I have to admit I thought I could kill her faster but the HE dmg

seems world apart from what the rest of the RU DD gets. So if I had to choose what I would take in a 

knife fight I rather have Tashkent than Grozovoi.

[_Teob_]

40 minutes ago, Desteban said:

 

[snip] the HE dmg seems world apart from what the rest of the RU DD gets [snip]

 

What is the difference between the Khaba/Tashkent HE dmg and the Grozo?

 

As far as I know, the Khaba has 1900 and the Grozo 1800 - surely that's not a big enough difference, unless I am missing something. 

 

I haven[t played my Khaba in quite a while so I don't know the stats off the top of my head.

[Desteban]

5 minutes ago, Teob_VG said:

 

What is the difference between the Khaba/Tashkent HE dmg and the Grozo?

 

As far as I know, the Khaba has 1900 and the Grozo 1800 - surely that's not a big enough difference, unless I am missing something. 

 

I haven[t played my Khaba in quite a while so I don't know the stats off the top of my head.

 

Well it isn't much of a difference on paper. That being said I was suprised of how big of a difference it is in reality.

No joke a Tashkent fully equiped on dpm is better than grozovoi

[Hugh_Ruka]

Tashkent has 6 guns with 4sec reload (module + BFT) * 1900 damage = 171 000 dpm

Grozovoi has 6 guns with 3.2 sec reload (module + BFT) * 1800 damage = 200 000 dpm

 

So no, Grozovoi is still better than Tashkent and about 14% worse than Khabarovsk...

 

EDIT: might be off on the Grozo reload time, don't have it myself ...

[_Teob_]

10 minutes ago, Hugh_Ruka said:

EDIT: might be off on the Grozo reload time, don't have it myself ...

you are spot on. it is 3.2 s

[dasCKD]

On 7/24/2017 at 10:39 PM, El2aZeR said:

Honestly, why play the Grozo at all? From a purely statistical point of view I don't see why anyone would play a Grozo over her contemporaries.

 

She works well as a combined escort cruiser. AA to repel enemy carriers for long enough for friendly fighters to arrive, smoke screen to keep allies safe, and the speed and good torpedoes to keep enemy battleships at a good distance. She also has the speed to cross the map if necessary and the concealment to perform spotting duties if called to it. Test server performance isn't an indication of anything, but she seems like a good rounder. But then I like the Prinz Eugen, so I might just be weird.

[El2aZeR]

19 minutes ago, dasCKD said:

But then I like the Prinz Eugen, so I might just be weird.

 

 

[Hugh_Ruka]

6 hours ago, Teob_VG said:

you are spot on. it is 3.2 s

 

well the problem is the crap interface. given the calculations, Grozo should have 3.16 sec reload, interface is likely showing 3.2 ... however it's a mystery what the game engine uses. Similarly Tash should have 3.96 sec reload.

[Desteban]

On 26.7.2017 at 1:24 PM, Hugh_Ruka said:

Tashkent has 6 guns with 4sec reload (module + BFT) * 1900 damage = 171 000 dpm

Grozovoi has 6 guns with 3.2 sec reload (module + BFT) * 1800 damage = 200 000 dpm

 

So no, Grozovoi is still better than Tashkent and about 14% worse than Khabarovsk...

Thats why I wrote "on paper"

 

Tashkent fully equiped on dpm is better (in a knife fight) than Grozovoi. 

Tashkent: 21800hp + 3640 (repair)

Grozovoi: 20900hp

 

Tashkent has better rudder and is faster. This all helps in dodging shells and increasing your odds of winning.

Overall the dpm is important but it won't outright win you a gunfight.

I had a long example with lots of calculations but actually the point should be clear by now. Repair Tashkent is infinitly stronger due to more HP

and easier time dodging shells than Grozovoi. The focus on the dpm was about Tashkent being a vaild DD hunter since the dmg she can

output is enough to reliably kill another DD in a fight. I know close up you won't dodge many shells but each shell you can avoid already

helps. At the end of the day Tash has more HP before and after the fight compared to Grozovoi. 

[KaraMon]

On 25.07.2017 at 9:28 AM, Teob_VG said:

 

It's better than the Gearing.

 

Nope .

 

Ok yes , it will most likely beat any Gearing in 1 v 1 gunfight as long as you can keep distance . But then comes the problem , what next when you beat all enemy DDs and you have to deal with 2 BB and a cruiser pushing you ?

You can't use your guns really if you shoot without good cover you are dead , torp them ? Sorry not with such long CD and low dmg . What to do in later game when you have low HP ? Still you can't use yuur awesome guns freely   .

 

Now look at Gearing , it has very good torps , most of them spec in torp reload anyways and even low on HP in later games Gearing is still huge threat to anyone . Even lone Gearing can fight , lone Grozovoi not so much

 

Btw AA does not matter , it is "average" tier 8 AA capable of shooting down t8 planes , t9 and t10 CV will just kill you without issues if they know what they are doing .

 

 

[_Teob_]

3 hours ago, KaraMon said:

 

Nope .

 

Ok yes , it will most likely beat any Gearing in 1 v 1 gunfight as long as you can keep distance . But then comes the problem , what next when you beat all enemy DDs and you have to deal with 2 BB and a cruiser pushing you ?

You can't use your guns really if you shoot without good cover you are dead , torp them ? Sorry not with such long CD and low dmg . What to do in later game when you have low HP ? Still you can't use yuur awesome guns freely   .

 

Now look at Gearing , it has very good torps , most of them spec in torp reload anyways and even low on HP in later games Gearing is still huge threat to anyone . Even lone Gearing can fight , lone Grozovoi not so much

 

Btw AA does not matter , it is "average" tier 8 AA capable of shooting down t8 planes , t9 and t10 CV will just kill you without issues if they know what they are doing .

 

Ok, so several points. 

1) Gearing actually has higher base torpedo reload than the Grozo. This means that a fully torp spec'd Gearing has 104s reload on torpedoes, a non torp spec'd Grozo has 129. Yes that's a big difference but no big enough for the Grozo to not be able to torp. And if that's your concern, maybe try a Gearing spec on the Grozo. You would lose some gun DPM but you would gain a lot of torpedo dpm instead.

 

2) AA does matter. I regularly have 10+ plane kills in games with CVs regardless of tier. If it's a tier 8, I can get closer to 20. Also, AA isn't something to be taken on its own, basically the Grozo can add its AA to the group.

 

3) The Gearing does not have very good torps at all. In fact a fully torp spec'd Gearing has the same torpedo DPM as a Z52 so why not use that if you want to torpedo stuff? It has better arcs on its guns, better fire starting chance... And if torpedoing stuff is your thing, the Fletcher or the Shima are much better at it. Which is the real issue, the Gearing doesn't excel at anything anymore.

 

4) The only situation where a Gearing would indeed be better is if you are totally on your own against several ships and you're spending your time torping them. That is a bad situation to be in and you won't get a lot of torpedo hits on targets that know you're there anyway. And even then the Grozo has the advantage of speed, which means you can position better so it's not a total landslide. And again, a Fletcher would be much better in that situation and arguably a Z52 as well.

 

Look nobody is questioning the fact that a fully spec'd torpedo Gearing is better at torpedoes than a non-torpedo spec'd Grozo. But fact of the matter is gun dmg is more reliable so up until you get to that end game point where you can only use torpedoes (which by the way, rarely happens - I usually still have a couple of buddies left at the end of the match) the Grozovoi contributes a lot more. Now I won't argue with you because I know you're a good player so I assume that, if you've made up your mind, I won't change it, nor do I want to convince anyone that the Grozo is better. Each to their own.

But you created the only situation where the Gearing is better and then decided that's representative for gameplay in general - this is a bit misleading. 

[KaraMon]

I understand your point , i have all 3 DD and still i feel like i am struggling a lot in Grozovoi to be as effective as Gearing or z52 .

 

I'd love to see torp reload balanced to other t10 dds , those are the same torps as z46 have , but z46 have 4 each tube  , add 1 more and we should get ~112 seconds reload , and clumsiness , damn that thing is a floating brick , z 52 is like an agile panther compared to Grozo

 

I am currently testing fully specced Grozo into torpedos but this ship still lacks something imo

[_Teob_]

1 hour ago, KaraMon said:

I am currently testing fully specced Grozo into torpedos but this ship still lacks something imo

 

Oh it lacks a lot of things:

- decent manoeuvrability

- smaller size

- torp dmg 

 

etc.

 

But it does have something truly unique: russian guns on a stealthy boat. No other DD has that. My point is that the Gearing doesn't have anything unique. I genuinely prefer the Fletcher to it. More torp dmg, lower torp cd and I still get around 75%  of the Gearing gun dmg which is enough to fight everything the Gearing fights as well. 

[El2aZeR]

3 hours ago, Teob_VG said:

Which is the real issue, the Gearing doesn't excel at anything anymore.

 

I disagree. Gearing excels at knife fighting if you build her for it. 1v1 she can destroy any opposing DD at close range except Khaba (and perhaps Grozo? Haven't encountered one after the buff yet). She can even take down Khabas in the right circumstances as your high DPM combined with AP can actually burst her down very quickly, although that's no easy feat and requires at several things to go your way, namely:

- Khaba has to stay at knife fighting ranges (which is easier than it sounds considering Khaba can simply kite away with her superior speed, easiest way to achieve this is to ambush via islands or attack when Khaba is near one and has no choice but to let you close the distance or do that itself)

- Khaba needs to broadside constantly (this happens very often, though)

- Khaba does not throw torps

(This is not an endorsement to attack any Khaba you find, usually that will end up with you returning to port very quickly, but keep in mind that you can take a Khaba one on one if the conditions favor you.)

 

AP salvos against a broadsiding Khaba exceeding 3-4k damage aren't uncommon at close range. Heck, you can even burst down some cruisers with citadel hits if you get the drop on them. And while your shell arcs are a liability rather often, it does allow you to abuse almost every island as cover and rain down a fiery rainbow on BBs.

 

Also sub 2s reload is hilarious when AR kicks in.