Destroyer survivability

[dasCKD]

I have a proper thread going, about carriers. Again. Look at the Graf Zeppelin videos if you want a hint of what triggered me this time. For now though, a quick suggestion.

 

Anyways. Currently, battleships can to catastrophic damage to destroyers even without loading the 'correct' shell type, which has continued to contribute to them flooding the servers like the persistent locusts that they are (biased? I have no idea what you're on about). This is presumably undesirable, so I have a suggestion.

 

Currently, full penetration damage done to destroyers, baring the Khabarovsk, is usually done through over-matching of shells. In the game right now, there is a certain threshold behind which shells simply do not arm, but over-matching appears to automatically arm all shells. My suggestion is therefore as follows: below a certain armor thickness, 4 mm below the maximum over-match penetration for example, shells should not arm when  over-matching an armor plate. A battleship AP shell being launched at the bow of anything but a Kebab will therefore simply over-penetrate, which will help improve destroyer survivability against battleships.

[RenamedUser_92906789]

Agreed.

Been talking about this for some times now, that BB should NOT get pens on DDs with AP.

Even the overpens do HUGE dmg to DDs, but the devs say "the stats are ok".

 

regards.

[El2aZeR]

Don't think it's overmatch per se that's the problem. It's either

- DD angles, giving the AP shell sufficient armor thickness to arm or

- penetration below the waterline similar to how you achieve citadel hits on BBs/cruisers.

 

Personally I'd fix it by simply making all BB AP shells deal a fixed 5% or so damage to DDs. Probably wouldn't even exempt Khaba as she would remain vulnerable to both air strikes and cruiser AP.

[Azalgor]

Beying able to take 4+ torps with no flooding and surviving is plenty. Otherwise damage saturation as a mechanic must go.

[Guillotine]

Dmg saturation to DDs should go away if you want to get BBs use HE, 12x14inch guns fire HE to DD you are awarded with whopping 0-700dmg thx to dmg saturation. 

 

Every time if im penned by BB as DD im stern on or bow on so the shell has time to arm and its my own fault, not game mechanics.

[dasCKD]

Just now, Guillotine said:

Dmg saturation to DDs should go away

You do realize this will mean that a battleship will lose 8-10k of health to every incoming HE salvo from a high tiered cruiser, right?

[Guillotine]

1 minute ago, dasCKD said:

You do realize this will mean that a battleship will lose 8-10k of health to every incoming HE salvo from a high tiered cruiser, right?

From DDs only so it makes sense to swich HE as BB.

[dasCKD]

Just now, Guillotine said:

From DDs only so it makes sense to swich HE as BB.

It will make just as much sense to switch to HE once battleship AP does nothing but superficial damage to destroyers.

[Guillotine]

35 minutes ago, dasCKD said:

It will make just as much sense to switch to HE once battleship AP does nothing but superficial damage to destroyers.

But still shooting 400mm+ shell to small boat should make them think twice, getting rid of BB pen vs DD should result removing DD HE saturation, so there isnt point where 4+ HE hits result next to 0 Dmg.

[dasCKD]

Just now, Guillotine said:

But still shooting 400mm+ shell to small boat should make them think twice, getting rid of BB pen vs DD should result removing DD HE saturation, so there isnt point where 4+ HE hits result next to 0 Dmg.

When a battleship shell hits and penetrates a destroyer for 0 damage, it's usually because the battleship hits an external module like a turret or torpedo tubes. Even a fully saturated superstructure, bow, or stern of a destroyer will take damage from HE. The destroyer midsection also can't be oversaturated. Assuming that all shells it the same place, AP shells will do proportionally the same damage to destroyers as their HE shells. Battleship AP only becomes a problem once they start landing standard penetrations on destroyers.

[Guillotine]

3 minutes ago, dasCKD said:

When a battleship shell hits and penetrates a destroyer for 0 damage, it's usually because the battleship hits an external module like a turret or torpedo tubes. Even a fully saturated superstructure, bow, or stern of a destroyer will take damage from HE. The destroyer midsection also can't be oversaturated. Assuming that all shells it the same place, AP shells will do proportionally the same damage to destroyers as their HE shells. Battleship AP only becomes a problem once they start landing standard penetrations on destroyers.

AP pens can be avoidet by sailing broadside as DD, if you turn to show stern or bow you give shell time to Arm wich is player error and can be translated to cruisers sailing broadside on and getting deleted by BB.

 

HE size of 381mm+ should be stopped by puny 20mm single mount AA gun.

[dasCKD]

Just now, Guillotine said:

AP pens can be avoidet by sailing broadside as DD, if you turn to show stern or bow you give shell time to Arm wich is player error and can be translated to cruisers sailing broadside on and getting deleted by BB.

 

Which would be fine against 1 battleship, not the 5 or 6 you see in the game right now. The problem is that battleships are simply too good at killing destroyers right now, and stopping their shells from even arming against smaller ships will go a long way to help destroyers, It's not like they don't already have to deal with the batteries of secondaries that lines all battleships.

[Ubertron_X]

AP mechanics being screwed does not stop at DD's. Just yesterday I received (exactly) 2 AP hits from Montana in my Baltimore for over 30k damage (without detonating), which is more damage than even 2 straight citadels. And I can easily imagine that DD struggle because of riccochet or double hits too (non-pen and pen in one hit). This is something WG needs to look into.

 

Apart from the fact that I agree that DD's seem to take a lot AP damage (but keep in mind that BB hit rate on DD's is high too) I disagree on the some of the 'not the correct shell type loaded' argument. As a BB you can not hold fire indefinitely. And against a target that has either never been spotted or blinks in/out just once every few minutes you shoot what you have, even in a CA. Considering the typical visibility window versus BB reload times there is only one (1) instance where I do consider a ammo switch, and that is when my reload is already finished AND the BB captain is a certain Mr. Segal AND he has the correct skill (which brings the switch down to an acceptable 7.5 to 8.5 secs).

 

 

 

 

[GSPDibbler]

Lately (2 weeks ago?) Sub_Octavian wrote that dev team ackowledge there is something wrong with this, and they will scope into that. The notion from the discussion was that community should temporarily stop herassing devs with this issue. Nothing wrong with suggestions tho (i dont think they will consider any since it took months for them to ackowledge problem exists in the first place), just... isnt there a topic for suggestions?

[Exocet6951]

2 hours ago, GSPDibbler said:

Lately (2 weeks ago?) Sub_Octavian wrote that dev team ackowledge there is something wrong with this, and they will scope into that. The notion from the discussion was that community should temporarily stop herassing devs with this issue. Nothing wrong with suggestions tho (i dont think they will consider any since it took months for them to ackowledge problem exists in the first place), just... isnt there a topic for suggestions?

 

A year ago they said that they'd look into BB overpopulation.
A year later, they're still buffing BBs.
I'd say that talking about the problem constantly to avoid it being forgotten as just another bug that made it past the net is important.
 

To add to the topic, playing the Dunkek earlier last week to get the 10/10 baguette intensifies camo, I noticed that the AP damage was wildly inconsistent.
For reference, one regular penetration for that ship is 3233
In one match, I managed to deal 3000-ish damage to a full HP target in one hit, and the next hit dealt 3400-ish

There's some inner server bamboozling going on.

[Skyllon]

6 hours ago, nambr9 said:

Agreed.

Been talking about this for some times now, that BB should NOT get pens on DDs with AP.

Even the overpens do HUGE dmg to DDs, but the devs say "the stats are ok".

 

regards.

 

To sum it up even better, I'd replace 'g' with 't'.

[GSPDibbler]

3 minutes ago, Exocet6951 said:

A year ago they said that they'd look into BB overpopulation.
A year later, they're still buffing BBs.

Well, there's that... I will just take them seriously on that one and point it out in, say, 3 months.

[El2aZeR]

9 hours ago, Guillotine said:

AP pens can be avoidet by sailing broadside as DD

 

Ahahahahahaha, no. The very notion shows that you have no idea how AP pens vs DDs actually work.

Get hit broadside below the waterline (which is very likely to happen considering BB inaccuracy)? Pen damage.

Angle? Pen damage.

Get hit on the deck? Pen damage.

Dodge? Not 100% possible with BB (in-)accuracy, even at long ranges.

 

Regardless of what you do in a DD, the only thing that is effective everytime is to pray to RNGesus.

[_Teob_]

22 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

 

Ahahahahahaha, no. The very notion shows that you have no idea how AP pens vs DDs actually work.

Get hit broadside below the waterline (which is very likely to happen considering BB inaccuracy)? Pen damage.

Angle? Pen damage.

Get hit on the deck? Pen damage.

Dodge? Not 100% possible with BB (in-)accuracy, even at long ranges.

 

Regardless of what you do in a DD, the only thing that is effective everytime is to pray to RNGesus.

 

Pretty much this.

 

For anyone that played ranked this season, it was obvious that DDs were getting blown out of the water at 12-14km sometimes by a single BB salvo. There is no counter-play to that other than running to the edge of the map so you don't get spotted by other DDs.

[Mangrey]

10 hours ago, dasCKD said:

When a battleship shell hits and penetrates a destroyer for 0 damage, it's usually because the battleship hits an external module like a turret or torpedo tubes. Even a fully saturated superstructure, bow, or stern of a destroyer will take damage from HE. The destroyer midsection also can't be oversaturated. Assuming that all shells it the same place, AP shells will do proportionally the same damage to destroyers as their HE shells. Battleship AP only becomes a problem once they start landing standard penetrations on destroyers.

they need to fix the overpene bug too..... where an overpene, overpene more then once. I once did 7.5k with one overpene hit. 

this bug was confirmed by a supertester some time back.

 

mang

[Pegasus2022]

You think it's bad being shot at by a BB in a DD, try an RN CL.

[Shirakami_Kon]

Hi. BB player here. One of those that don't bother switching to HE to shoot at a DD. Why? Because of the stupid mechanic that says that if you damage or destroy a module of a ship the shell deals 0 damage. You know what happens when you shoot HE to a DD? HE shells have a blast area upon impact, the bigger the shell, the bigger the blast area (that's what also may cause that HE shells from BBs landing next to a DD on the water still cause damage to the DD even if they missed the ship).

 

Why do I explain all that? Well, BBs have the biggest guns = the biggest shells = the biggest HE blast explained before. What DDs have? Tons of modules to break within a very small area. If you as a BB shoot HE at a DD what will happen most probably is that you damage a module (or two or three at the same time, that happens too) hopefully at least break it, but the DD recives 0 damage for every shell that breaks something. Damn, I remember playing Imperator, shooting a whole HE salvo at a Clemson damage all his guns, torpedo launchers and engine but the Clemson took 0 damage, hit the R button and continued his life. And that by the way is what made me forget about loading HE against DDs.

 

What do we have if we load AP? Pitiful overpens, but since DDs have pitiful HP pools too at least we have damage done, maybe a ship sunk, the point of shooting at that ship in the first place.

 

Ok, that said, I understand that at high tiers the overpen damage against DDs is ridiculous and something must be done, but really the only thing I can think of that will make everyone happy is considering OP idea, with which I agree... IF that stupid mechanic of "if you break a module you deal 0 damage" is removed too. With those two things combined I think that BBs would really have to switch to HE to deal damage to a DD but BBs also gain something out of doing that.

 

Because honestly, even if BBs only get overpen damage mostly shooting at DDs that's still way better than shooting HE in the current state. And that as fact as that overpen damage to DDs is ridiculous too.

[El2aZeR]

6 minutes ago, SHDRKN4792 said:

IF that stupid mechanic of "if you break a module you deal 0 damage" is removed too.

 

This is funny because BBs benefit the most from this.

[Porpoise]

There is actually no reason for BB to switch ammo for shooting destroyers. Every hit is 1000-1450 damage guaranted with chance of getting juicy pens for 4k. On higher tiers BB are pretty accurate and it is very easy to land 4 or more hits per salvo.  

[Shirakami_Kon]

Just now, El2aZeR said:

 

This is funny because BBs benefit the most from this.

 

Well, you could use that then to reduce the absurd tankiness of BBs too since they would recive more damage out of that too, wouldn't that be great?