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New ship preview: Monarch

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I personally look forward to a fictional T6 Queen Victoria, as QE Class and R Class are seemed unacceptable for T6. Due to tech tree progression, and definitely not selling 10 variants of the QE class. 


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5 hours ago, 1MajorKoenig said:

Nelson becomes premium? This Monarch thingy becomes T8? And T8+ get Def AA?

 

Wow... just wow.

 

You would think this one would be the easiest BB line but it looks like significant changes, rebalancing and such. 

 

Don't really know what to say other than wow.

 

The hardest part will be do I take DFAA or Radar if they do this smoke nerf.

 

Also WG please remove the rest of the real ships in the RN BB line. No one wanted to play the Vangaurd or Nelson anyway. So remove the KGV, Iron Duke etc etc. We'd rather play fantasy ships like HMS Bad Google Translation. 


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@Tuccy , 

 

You're lack of replies to any of the last 5 pages of this forum post speaks volumes. As you can see the vast majority of people who play this game and can be bothered to write on the forums about the proposed UK BB line are pretty disgusted by the WG approach.

 

LISTEN TO YOUR PLAYER BASE. what is the point of having a forum if you just ignore what the players say here

 

Hear-No-Evil-See-No-Evil-Speak-No-Evil.thumb.jpg.64a6201966072a464988086d87d2948d.jpg

WG is very wrong on this issue, and yes, i am angry, and I feel I have the right to be so


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Ugh WG why..

First all this mess on T8+ And now my beloved Nelly as prem?

I already own a QE and you murder the tree past T6.. Why would i even want to grind that line now?


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Wow, this thread! Well, I should be grateful, WG just gave me a very good reason to spend time and money on other hobbies/work. Sad!


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3 hours ago, Hans_the_Hawk said:

LISTEN TO YOUR PLAYER BASE

 

Player base for last 5 years:

 

'I can't wait to grind Nelson and buy a premium Rodney with token torpedoes' :cap_money:

 


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Unfortunatly Trainspite was wrong, 

 

"And hopefully the final nail in the coffin for the idea of KGV at tier 7, is that the historical advisors that WG confer with are in favour of the KGV being tier 8"

 

it looks like WG doesn't listen to anyone or thing except the MIGHTY DOLLAR


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14 hours ago, and444 said:

im sorry if i seem mean, i just a bit anoyed and let it out. Good day :cap_like:

 

We are ALL "a bit annoyed" by WG and we are all letting it out. Just like you do towards the answers in this topic. So I don't see what's wrong with it.

 

14 hours ago, and444 said:

I for one kinda like that they put some paper ships in too.

It makes me think, it makes me want to know how they would have preformed, and what the thinking behind the design was.

How would it have looked? what would it be equipped with? (caliber guns, amount of aa, mabye a plane or a few, etc) 

 

And as said numerous times there was many other way to implement it :

Make her an alternate KGV configuration
Make of her a premium
Make a secondary line (honestly there's enough materil in british BBs to make three and even 4 if you're crazy enough like me)
Tweak numbers to put her at another tier
 

Honestly there were a billion ways they could use many interesting paperships and still make it right. They failed.

 

11 hours ago, 1MajorKoenig said:

You would think this one would be the easiest BB line but it looks like significant changes, rebalancing and such. 

 

Now that, I don't think it's actually true.
First off there are very few possibilities and variety for an actual tier X.
Besides that, many british BBs (and they were numerous) would, if you don't modify their stats too much, be more fitting at similar tiers. Meaning it's hard to get the tree to expand all the way from tier III to tier X without rebalancing to fill gaps at some tiers.
And above that, the most rational way of thinking would push you to put ships in a bizarre order (like Vanguard which wouldn't be above older designs, KGV and Nelson which could both be considered TVIII material, not mentionning how climbing to 406mm then dropping back down would feel sorta weird especially at these tiers) and putting them in the correct acceptable order would need extensive rebalancing.

 

But I'd rate the line as "somewhat challenging", nothing like "hard". And they're failing drastically nontheless.

 

6 hours ago, WestyII said:

It really seems like an excuse to Milk the player base. 

 

Seems ?
It is obviously. What do you think, that they'd only keep Dreadnought out ? The more they can earn the more they will.
They don't care much about anything as long as it brings them money and keeps the game barely afloat so they can milk it a bit more.


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Haven't played since this was announced and i actually planned on purchasing a few premiums which I now am not. 

Without swearing a lot i don't know what to say......


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22 hours ago, Dropsiq said:

which is no issue at all as WG can just tweak the numbers any way they like, therefore guns from KGV can overmatch any bow armour devs would like them to overmatch. Just sayin'

Yes they can. But why? Why pretend those guns were something they were not; just to force a ship into a tier where all it's rl (or design) peers outmatched it in capability? We're talking about guns with less penetration at 10kyds than the Bismarck's guns had at 20kyds (!!) and the Bismarck's guns are already on the light side for this tier - and with no special qualities to make up for that. Guns that would not even have been considered, were it not for one of history's most idiotic treates. They were not magic. They were not "almost equal" to the 380+mm weapons on this tier. They were normal, mundane, 356mm guns - and performed accordingly.


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Quote

Yes they can. But why? Why pretend those guns were something they were not; just to force a ship into a tier where all it's rl (or design) peers outmatched it in capability? We're talking about guns with less penetration at 10kyds than the Bismarck's guns had at 20kyds (!!) and the Bismarck's guns are already on the light side for this tier - and with no special qualities to make up for that. Guns that would not even have been considered, were it not for one of history's most idiotic treates. They were not magic. They were not "almost equal" to the 380+mm weapons on this tier. They were normal, mundane, 356mm guns - and performed accordingly.

Oh, I don't really know :D Not joking. I mean, this is a game, and so, any tweaks to it regarding numbers are worth considering. And I don't really see an issue with KGV faceing Bismarcks and North Carolinas IN GAME. I don't really care how 356 mm guns performed in real life, how good or bad were they. What I do care about, is to have an ability to play famous ship. It would make sense as timeline goes, so why not? Nelson on VII vs other late dreadnaughts, KGV on VIII vs other treaty designs. In game we don't really care if KGV was on par with them. Another reason for me, is that I like the ship :D And I would be super bummed if I would just grind it through and had little reason to go back to it you know? On tier VIII I would use it for rankeds, would see it in competitve maybe? Don't get me wrong, I'm okay with Monarch, I just felt that the previous tech tree was perfect. And I don't mind tweaking some stats to make it viable.

If it was some kind of more serious simulation, then yes, your argument would be on point. But it's not, so I don't see reason to not put a famous ship to tier in which she could be used for more stuff then grinding.


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14 minutes ago, Namolis said:

Yes they can. But why? Why pretend those guns were something they were not; just to force a ship into a tier where all it's rl (or design) peers outmatched it in capability? We're talking about guns with less penetration at 10kyds than the Bismarck's guns had at 20kyds (!!) and the Bismarck's guns are already on the light side for this tier - and with no special qualities to make up for that. Guns that would not even have been considered, were it not for one of history's most idiotic treates. They were not magic. They were not "almost equal" to the 380+mm weapons on this tier. They were normal, mundane, 356mm guns - and performed accordingly.

 

Why pretend that this game accurately models the guns of ships in a deeply ahistorical virtual environment? 

 

It doesn't. The range of the game is truncated/compressed/edited in such a way that long range pen is not as good as it was historically. This means that the RN 14" Mk.VII - which was quite a decent weapon at range (ask Scharnhorst), suffers quite a bit because of this. I know New Mex's 14" are not too different, but KGV's weapon is better by somewhat. However, having the weapon cropped in game should not be a reason to try and put KGV down a tier and make her look equal to Colorado. Emerald uses supercharges. Kirov has 4RPM. There are plenty of buffed aspects of ships to balance them at their respective tiers. Surely buffing an aspects of KGV's guns, or firing 15" shells from them is no different? For an obviously tier 8 ship aside from it's guns, surely this would be the logical solution to create a line of RN BBs that is testament to the ships they represent and balanced in terms of gameplay?

 

(By the way, your numbers are wrong - the navweaps table doesn't represent the gun particularly well, the USN empirical formula is not without it's flaws. I think if the numbers are reversed through the formula, the gun calibre ends up being 13.7" or below, but that is out of my depth a little. - Firing trials did reveal the 14" could pen 12" side armour at 23.95km and 6" of deck armour at 25.6km. Not too far behind other larger calibre guns. Using Nathan Okun's tables, the 14" on KGV usually goes sub 12" of pen between 28'000 and 30'000 yards. - The larger German 15" does this at around 30'000 to 34'000 yards. All irrelevant in game because the game doesn't model this.)

 

If this keeps going we will be seeing our new tier 7 Italian Battleships, Littorio & Roma, since KGV is not too dissimilar (better or worse) from them in terms of capability. 

 

 

 

 


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1 hour ago, Trainspite said:

 

Why pretend that this game accurately models the guns of ships in a deeply ahistorical virtual environment? 

 

It doesn't. The range of the game is truncated/compressed/edited in such a way that long range pen is not as good as it was historically. This means that the RN 14" Mk.VII - which was quite a decent weapon at range (ask Scharnhorst), suffers quite a bit because of this. I know New Mex's 14" are not too different, but KGV's weapon is better by somewhat. However, having the weapon cropped in game should not be a reason to try and put KGV down a tier and make her look equal to Colorado. Emerald uses supercharges. Kirov has 4RPM. There are plenty of buffed aspects of ships to balance them at their respective tiers. Surely buffing an aspects of KGV's guns, or firing 15" shells from them is no different? For an obviously tier 8 ship aside from it's guns, surely this would be the logical solution to create a line of RN BBs that is testament to the ships they represent and balanced in terms of gameplay?

 

(By the way, your numbers are wrong - the navweaps table doesn't represent the gun particularly well, the USN empirical formula is not without it's flaws. I think if the numbers are reversed through the formula, the gun calibre ends up being 13.7" or below, but that is out of my depth a little. - Firing trials did reveal the 14" could pen 12" side armour at 23.95km and 6" of deck armour at 25.6km. Not too far behind other larger calibre guns. Using Nathan Okun's tables, the 14" on KGV usually goes sub 12" of pen between 28'000 and 30'000 yards. - The larger German 15" does this at around 30'000 to 34'000 yards. All irrelevant in game because the game doesn't model this.)

 

If this keeps going we will be seeing our new tier 7 Italian Battleships, Littorio & Roma, since KGV is not too dissimilar (better or worse) from them in terms of capability. 

 

 

 

 

I have no problems believing the formula (being a fairly simplistic approximation to the actual reality of penetration) is inaccurate in certain situations - that goes for all ships and guns (so if KGV 14" performs better, so could very possibly the others). However, the game actually does model shell ballistics as accurately as any out there, and relies on some empirical formual (fnord_disc's work seemed to suggest that WG is using the USN empirical formula or a formula very close to it) to do the actual penetration calculations. Thus: for game purposes how a shell performs, using real world data for shell weight, shape, muzzle velocity etc. and the empirical formula for penetration is the most relevant data we can produce. Navweaps is also the only data I have access to.

 

Scharnhorst had its upper belt (2") pierced, and the shell would then most likely have strook the 3" turtleback at ranges of about 20km (angle of fall ~20 degrees). This seems to be in line with the penetration numbers given by the empirical formula.

 

Pull KGV down to the level of Colorado? Well... KGV is certainly faster, but if you're asking which ship would have won an 1v1 in rl, I'm not convinced KGV held the advantage. Colorado has the larger immunity zone to the other's weapons. I would expect Colorado to win most of the time in a 1v1 engagement for that reason - although a loss for KGV most likely means pulling away to repair damage, while a loss for the Lolo means she goes down.
 

Spoiler

 

If Colorado and KGV are both angled at about 45 degrees (one closing, the other running away, both ships wanting to keep a full broadside in the fight), then KGV will need to close to much less than 10 kyds to pen Colos main belt (480mm effective), while Lolo can comfortably penetrate KGV's main belt (523 effective) even at 45 degrees at 10 kyds. Closing speed in such scenario will be 5 kts. If the immunity zone is 4km different, then that is almost half an hour to make it count. Not insignificant.

 

Is there any difference in range finders or other aim gear? I'm sure there is, but Colo recieved continous upgrades, so I would not expect her to be automatically inferior. Will KGV have better armor steel? Yes, probably, but it's hard to say by how much and how significant that is in practice.

 

 

 

And Littorio is mostly the same story - those very high powered guns had considerably better penetration at all relevant ranges. Littorio would have a larger immunity zone to KGV's weapons than the other way around. Littorio's guns were not very accurate, but Littorio would probably still be playable if it has a worse accuracy modelled by lowering the sigma (as indeed happens to the Dunkerque in game). It is possible that KGV in rl could have made up the difference with some mystey x-factor, but I don't know the subject intimately enough to make a judgement call on that.

 

At the end of the day, I believe it really should suffice to say that The Admirality wanted other, bigger, guns for the ship. They were denied this for political, not military, reasons.

 

Oh, and since the topic at hand is the Monarch... It is an OK choice I guess, given that WG recognized the problem at hand. I would have wished for the Vanguard to fill the T8 spot - with supercharges if possible (since she was actually equipped to use them, unlike other RN 15" ships. I realize she is still a little on the weak side, but not insurmountably so (and it was definitely a more capable ship than the KGV, so it firmly belongs a tier above her). I hope Vanguard at least will be used for a second branch of RN battleships if it is not included in the first one.


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