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Onion_Rounds

Guns precision

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Hello,

 

Today I was wondering if there's an extra way in improving the precision of the main guns for a BB player , except for the well known Aiming Systems Modification upgrade. Recently I just got my tier VI Bayern BB and I can say that I am very fustrated with my dispersion even with the ASM upgrade, specially when I deal with destroyers. I know those should be left for cruisers , but for some reasons most of them just shoot with HE at battleships instead of taking care of the destroyers, and ofc there are situations when as a BB you have no option but to deal with them by yourself.

To summarize my experience as a BB player with destroyers : http://imgur.com/a/DmQn4 

 

 

 

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The Bayern can be frustrating, she has pretty much the worst accuracy of all ships (not actual numbers, only my feeling). The tier 7 Gneisenau has even less guns, but at least she has other strengths.

Learn how to get as close as possible, positioning is key to get this ship to work. The Germans are no snipers. The Bayern is a beast when properly angled and her guns have a good punch (if they hit). This is the last slow ship in the line, starting with Gneisenau you can close the range faster and the secondaries get better, too.

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3 hours ago, ColonelPete said:

Aiming better helps.

Even if you perfectly predicted his course, be at the optimal distance from him and have the right ammo loaded , you'll still miss in most of the situations ...

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2 hours ago, Ze_Reckless said:

The Bayern can be frustrating, she has pretty much the worst accuracy of all ships (not actual numbers, only my feeling). The tier 7 Gneisenau has even less guns, but at least she has other strengths.

Learn how to get as close as possible, positioning is key to get this ship to work. The Germans are no snipers. The Bayern is a beast when properly angled and her guns have a good punch (if they hit). This is the last slow ship in the line, starting with Gneisenau you can close the range faster and the secondaries get better, too.

 

German BBs are no snipers indeed , they are somewhere in the middle, between brawlers (like US 4-7 tiers) and IJN snipers . I have found out all the ups and downs of my ship , I know how to position myself, how to stay angled , what distance to keep , etc. it's just that i miss way too often and I'm convinced I'm not doing anything wrong . 

Well , I guess the dice don't roll in my favour...

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5 hours ago, Onion_Rounds said:

Even if you perfectly predicted his course, be at the optimal distance from him and have the right ammo loaded , you'll still miss in most of the situations ...

I doubt that. At close range the guns are pretty accurate. And ammo does not matter.

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The dispersion quoted on your ship stats is maximum dispersion in the horizontal plane at maximum gun range. Sigma value is used to calculate vertical dispersion to form your salvo ellipse. The game uses Gaussian noise distribution to disperse your shots in that ellipse and then does some math to flatten the ellipse onto the the plane of the water to get the x,y coords of where your shells will fall.

Dispersion is supposed to be a linear progression from your ship to max range, but its actually implemented in three steps, first at about 4Km another at mid range and then max range  In between these fixed ranges they do math to extrapolate dispersion.

 

All this only works if you have a target selected. Shoot at something you arnt locked on and dispersion is worse apparently.

 

All this came from a piece Sub_Octavian wrote about the dispersion mechanics that I saw on Shipcomrade http://shipcomrade.com/news/307/the-warships-podcast-episode-36-warships-math-with-sub-octavian.html

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To quote Nelson.

 

"No captain can do very wrong if he places his ship alongside that of the enemy."

 

Close and engage.

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43 minutes ago, GhostRider_24 said:

To quote Nelson.

 

"No captain can do very wrong if he places his ship alongside that of the enemy."

 

Close and engage.

 

Not to go against Nelson or anything, but I'm pretty sure he'd amend his statement If he knew torpedoes would be a thing. :Smile-_tongue:

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18 minutes ago, Turin7 said:

 

Not to go against Nelson or anything, but I'm pretty sure he'd amend his statement If he knew torpedoes would be a thing. :Smile-_tongue:

 

Ah but that is why we have torpedo beats :Smile_trollface:

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1 hour ago, GhostRider_24 said:

To quote Nelson.

 

"No captain can do very wrong if he places his ship alongside that of the enemy."

 

Close and engage.

Instructions unclear: Shokaku's flight deck is on fire and I only have 3 secondary hits. Also, I have been reported 11 times, what did I do wrong?

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German Battleships have the worst gun Accuracy.

There is a second accuracy value (it is called sigma) which basically determines the vertical dispersion. (how far behind or in front the waterline for example).. Imagine it like an oval (ellipsoid) shape (like the dive bomber drop for example). but every ship has different.

**

(google it or search the forum)

 

4 things affect this.

1st=  the modules -- (%based tighter oval shape which affects both horizontal AND vertical dispersion).

2nd= if you are locked on target you are getting acc buff (the shells home-in and forgive you on slight vertical dispersion+ it gives a passive %buff)

3rd= hard turns (this is from my experience so I dont know if there are mechanics about this or its just lag.. but especially on turns that you tilt the ship kinda affects shots vertically from where you aimed. 1/2 rudder is safe. but full rudder +speed most of the time i hit the water)

4th= autocorrections + shell normalization.

Based from where you aim (the better you aim towards the citadels(with the evasive turns counted) usually get better RNG.

shell normalization isnt exactly acc aim buff, but US BBs hit harder because of that (it forgives +3degrees of angle which result in getting more often citadels. At later tiers its more noticable, but then again the armor on most of the targets and the chance they are angled is greater).

 

**horizontal dispersion is the one displayed on game (if you hover the mainguns and its like the start and the end of the length of the "imaginary" oval circle where the shells land in). And its displayed as somevalue@max_distance you can fire

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16 hours ago, ColonelPete said:

I doubt that. At close range the guns are pretty accurate. And ammo does not matter.

 

I had cruisers at like 4-6 km from me . Aimed perfectly for the citadel , fired all guns, all shells miss or just hit for 1-2k dmg.

Ammo does not matter ? Seriously ?! So there's no difference if I shoot HE or AP at destroyers for example or light cruisers ? Last time I checked there was this thing called overpenetration . Or am I wrong ?

What you probably meant to say is that ammo type does not affect precision , which is true ...

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5 minutes ago, Clawgr said:

German Battleships have the worst gun Accuracy.

There is a second accuracy value (it is called sigma) which basically determines the vertical dispersion. (how far behind or in front the waterline for example).. Imagine it like an oval (ellipsoid) shape (like the dive bomber drop for example). but every ship has different.

(google it or search the forum)

 

4 things affect this.

1st=  the modules -- (%based tighter oval shape which affects both horizontal AND vertical dispersion).

2nd= if you are locked on target you are getting acc buff (the shells home-in and forgive you on slight vertical dispersion+ it gives a passive %buff)

3rd= hard turns (this is from my experience so I dont know if there are mechanics about this or its just lag.. but especially on turns that you tilt the ship kinda affects shots vertically from where you aimed. 1/2 rudder is safe. but full rudder +speed most of the time i hit the water)

4th= autocorrections + shell normalization.

Based from where you aim (the better you aim towards the citadels(with the evasive turns counted) usually get better RNG.

shell normalization isnt exactly acc aim buff, but US BBs hit harder because of that (it forgives +3degrees of angle which result in getting more often citadels. At later tiers its more noticable, but then again the armor on most of the targets and the chance they are angled is greater).

 

Ok.. this might bring some light . I think I need to correct on the 3rd thing you mentioned , because I usually have full speed rudder set, and I don't mess around with that a lot , but only when I need to slow to avoid torps , or change speed to mislead the enemy when firing back at me causing him to land shells in front or back of my ship and miss me.

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6 hours ago, Onion_Rounds said:

 

I had cruisers at like 4-6 km from me . Aimed perfectly for the citadel , fired all guns, all shells miss or just hit for 1-2k dmg.

Ammo does not matter ? Seriously ?! So there's no difference if I shoot HE or AP at destroyers for example or light cruisers ? Last time I checked there was this thing called overpenetration . Or am I wrong ?

What you probably meant to say is that ammo type does not affect precision , which is true ...

You were talking about HITTING. Do not change the subject each time you recognize you were talking rubbish.

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No battleships in this game are particularly accurate (with one or two exceptions), but the Germans are the worst of the lot. One of the "features" of playing German ships is lining up the perfect shot and watching shells land all around your target! It encourages you to get in close ;-)

 

On your point: Shooting at destoyers as a batteship is absolutely a good thing to do. You'll get an idea over time of when you have a good chance of hitting them, and when you don't. There's no point in wasting shots on DDs that are 15km away, because they'll probably dodge, but when they're close enough to hit it's well worth it. As you've noticed, a lot of cruiser drivers prefer to scratch the paint on battleships instead, because they're nice and easy to hit, and when you get to higher tiers you'll find that cruisers are much less able to chase the DDs without exploding - so it's worth practicing killing them yourself.

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4 hours ago, ColonelPete said:

You were talking about HITTING. Do not change the subject each time you recognize you were talking rubbish.

 

If you are posting in here at least try to be constructive about it . All that you said was that aiming better helps. Well I've experimented that on the training room at point blank range (4-5 km) and also at around 10km on different cruiser bots inactive and standing still with my aim just were the citadel is . You will be surprised how often your shells will land in a pattern just around your target and it happens often to me even in live random battles.

I'm surprised that some of you find this to be "normal" ... I think at least 40-50% of the shells should hit , specially at distances below 10 km , but that's just my opinion. The math model they used for this is simply broken and it needs reevaluation , and all of you know it.

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You are using a GERMAN Battleship. If you didnt know this, They are the most Inaccurate BBs in the game.

The reason for this Inaccuracy is the fact that they are Brawlers. They have very powerful secondaries so people tend to do secondary builds on them from tier 6 onwards.

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This may not be the most helpful reply, but the simple fact is that poor BB accuracy is just something you have to live with. Each of those rounds can utterly ruin another player's day if they hit something that doesn't react well to shell fire so it's kind of the price you pay. Best you can do is just take some time learning the characteristics of a particuar BB's weapons fire, and adapt as best you can.

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On 12/07/2017 at 3:10 PM, GhostRider_24 said:

To quote Nelson.

 

"No captain can do very wrong if he places his ship alongside that of the enemy."

 

Close and engage.

 

Funny old world innit, to quote another Nelson (Phyllis)  "Move closer"

 

 

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On 12/07/2017 at 1:00 PM, Fat_Maniac said:

The dispersion quoted on your ship stats is maximum dispersion in the horizontal plane at maximum gun range. Sigma value is used to calculate vertical dispersion to form your salvo ellipse. The game uses Gaussian noise distribution to disperse your shots in that ellipse and then does some math to flatten the ellipse onto the the plane of the water to get the x,y coords of where your shells will fall.

Dispersion is supposed to be a linear progression from your ship to max range, but its actually implemented in three steps, first at about 4Km another at mid range and then max range  In between these fixed ranges they do math to extrapolate dispersion.

 

All this only works if you have a target selected. Shoot at something you arnt locked on and dispersion is worse apparently.

 

All this came from a piece Sub_Octavian wrote about the dispersion mechanics that I saw on Shipcomrade http://shipcomrade.com/news/307/the-warships-podcast-episode-36-warships-math-with-sub-octavian.html

 

Not quite a fully accurate summary. The dispersion figure in port is the horizontal diameter of the dispersion ellipse, the vertical diameter is an unknown figure. The gaussian distribution with the ellipse is based on a formula that includes a sigma value - sigma is the variable that can make terrible dispersion on paper actually very good in practise e.g. North Carolina with its 1.8 sigma.

 

Not 'locking on' increases maximum dispersion by a factor of 3, and therefore the distribution of shot will stretch to fit the larger ellipse.

 

Otherwise bang on. I suggest reading Octavians guide and the WoWS Wiki page on gunnery to understand why German BBs can't hit the inside of a barn from the stall.

 

Edit;

Onion, I saw a later post of yours where you said 50% hit rate would seem normal. At very close range, say 6-8km in a Bayern I'd agree, but overall a well practised aim will get around 30-33% hit rate with BB guns. German BBs a little less, they are the most inaccurate. I generalised for BBs as a class.

As to a broken mathimatical model.... well, if BBs had cruiser accuracy, they would delete a ship every 30 seconds or so :) That would not be fun for anyone.

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