A-poi-calypse Now II: the death of torpedo boats

[keya_kin]

They are now talking about nerfing smokes because it would cause for to much smoke camping and passive game play. I also tried to take the Shira out on a spin with the torp reload booster instad of smoke.I saw a big cluster of ships in one of those little smokes and torped it to hell. Resulting on a full HP Amagi getting killed and a few torp hits on other ship.
 

So instad of tweaking that smoke mechanic and nerfing down IJN dd's, they could give back the torp strenght for those dd's to counter smoke camping. I mean, as bb player I do know not to sit to long in a smoke if there is a dd nearby. And as a dd player, I know that poking a smoke with torps will lead them to get out of the smoke, or getting torped (or if the build a little shrine for RNG, they dodge the torps).

Make IJN dd's great again to counter those smoke campers I say 

[Aragathor]

31 minutes ago, CmndrKatyusha said:

I got say the amount of damage that Wargaming is doing to the japanese torpedoes destroyers, making them in terms useless against over nations destroyers that have better turning rates of the guns and the spotting range of them. while I grinding up the japanese torpedo line of IJN destroyers I  noticed that tier 6 stock ship can be spotted at 6.5kms and has stock torpedoes that need to be fired at 6.0km. so the enemy would spot me before I got in range with torpedoes attacks on them. wargaming made the grind for the upgrade torpedo tubes hard to get forces players to spend 10,000xp on hull upgrade and 4,000xp for the tubes after. 

all games that played ship was death with 9,000 damage with guns and being killed by cruisers and destroyers from other nations. 

I got say in the CBT the IJN was the great ships with their torpedoes and great power to hide from cruisers and destroyers alike.

since they added Hydroacoustic Search and radar  that can spot IJN easily when they haven't popped smoke or have smoke up. The Belfast is heavily OP and wargaming is too scared to nerf it because it's premium ship tag to it's name.

 

Wargaming needs to buff the IJN torpedo destroyers and fix this game before the Japanese DD will be useless line in the tech tree        

 

You know what WG is gonna do? They will nerf IJN dd's again.

Is balans comrade.

[sharpie65]

Out of curiosity, how exactly is Shiratsuyu getting nerfed? As quite possibly the pushiest battlewagon player I know (the first thing on my mind is one of the following: "BANZAI!", "FOR THE EMPEROR!", or "CHARGE!"), I most definitely would expect a DD - and a torpedo boat at that - to counteract my charge and force a retreat. Albeit a Dunkerque-style retreat ("Charge..backwards!").

In most cases, the volume of HE/APspam from cruisers is not enough to do that, I need decent torpedospam and a sufficient DD population (say, an average of 3 per game) to discourage my wanton, careless banzai-ing. Of course, anything that will give CVs a role other than DD counteraction (such as AP bombs on on USN high-tier CVs) should also discourage such activity, but it won't.

---

 

Back on topic, to reiterate my question, how exactly is Shiratsuyu being nerfed, except for the overall gunspam-smoke-duration reduction that we know is coming (and possibly mostly intended for Minotaur than DDs)?

[PzAbteilung]

IJN dds are so bad that they are only able to kill noob players that will go in straight at same speed more than 10 seconds

[Verdius]

21 hours ago, sharpie65 said:

Out of curiosity, how exactly is Shiratsuyu getting nerfed? As quite possibly the pushiest battlewagon player I know (the first thing on my mind is one of the following: "BANZAI!", "FOR THE EMPEROR!", or "CHARGE!"), I most definitely would expect a DD - and a torpedo boat at that - to counteract my charge and force a retreat. Albeit a Dunkerque-style retreat ("Charge..backwards!").

In most cases, the volume of HE/APspam from cruisers is not enough to do that, I need decent torpedospam and a sufficient DD population (say, an average of 3 per game) to discourage my wanton, careless banzai-ing. Of course, anything that will give CVs a role other than DD counteraction (such as AP bombs on on USN high-tier CVs) should also discourage such activity, but it won't.

---

 

Back on topic, to reiterate my question, how exactly is Shiratsuyu being nerfed, except for the overall gunspam-smoke-duration reduction that we know is coming (and possibly mostly intended for Minotaur than DDs)?

Shiratsuyu lost the ability to both have Torp reload booster and smoke at the same time

[sharpie65]

On 7/24/2017 at 2:00 PM, Verdius said:

Shiratsuyu lost the ability to both have Torp reload booster and smoke at the same time

To be fair, that has a huge amount of potential to make Shira the top dog at T7(?), and it makes her that much better than the other ships in both the IJN branches. Was/is Shiratsuyu an extremely popular ship because of that? 

[Aragathor]

2 hours ago, sharpie65 said:

To be fair, that has a huge amount of potential to make Shira the top dog at T7(?), and it makes her that much better than the other ships in both the IJN branches. Was/is Shiratsuyu an extremely popular ship because of that? 

 

Shiratsuyu's dead mate. The ship had potential because of the combination, now it's one of the worst DDs at tier 7. Akatsuki is now hands down better.

[Hugh_Ruka]

2 hours ago, Aragathor said:

 

Shiratsuyu's dead mate. The ship had potential because of the combination, now it's one of the worst DDs at tier 7. Akatsuki is now hands down better.

 

that's a matter of opinion ... given the differences. I do prefer a wider torpedo spread per launch than more launchers ... you are less dependent on the accuracy of your prediction of enemy movement with a wider spread (more torps per salvo) .... but maybe I am just  bad at aiming torps ...

[Aragathor]

31 minutes ago, Hugh_Ruka said:

 

that's a matter of opinion ... given the differences. I do prefer a wider torpedo spread per launch than more launchers ... you are less dependent on the accuracy of your prediction of enemy movement with a wider spread (more torps per salvo) .... but maybe I am just  bad at aiming torps ...

 

I don't think you understand, Shira has only a minimally better concealment than Akatsuki. In everything else the Akatsuki is better.

It's not about torp spreads but overall stats. And the new numbers since the nerf show that the Shiratsuyu is going down to the bottom of the list.

[Arx205]

The Poiboat saw a nerf indeed. Though not a major one.

I've always been reluctant to use smoke on this one. It is a big warning for the enemy team: "Look! Torps will be approaching from there!". Maybe it had some use in battles with carriers, but then again - smoking up takes away all the potential for spotting (one of your main tasks, even if not awarded accordingly) and torping. And it's easier for the radar ships to know when will they face a good chance of catching you off guard. The guns were very situational anyway. And since the positions for which Shiratsuyu aims are usually at an angle on bow about 80-40 degrees and as close as possible, there is little possibility of smoking up your fleet.

I'm still scoring consistently good results with the Shiratsuyu. You need a bit more concern while capping, that's most of the change.

[MoffGaburo]

On 13/7/2017 at 1:45 PM, lup3s said:

Damn, I just found out the Shira is getting nerfed heavily.

 

Why does WG hate IJN DDs so much?

Just one word "Tsushima". They didnt forget nor forgive.

[Thracen]

Seriously, how the hell do you play these ships when you are dealing with minute long radar with the new mod, now easily equipped, and CVs all over the place able to move faster than you and spot everything.

 

HOW? TELL MEEEE!

 

I don't need 100k damage I just want them to be fun again. IJN dds and in fact dds in general are getting their orifices widened by farm animals on meth.

[MoveZig]

On 26/07/2017 at 9:16 PM, Aragathor said:

 

I don't think you understand, Shira has only a minimally better concealment than Akatsuki. In everything else the Akatsuki is better.

It's not about torp spreads but overall stats. And the new numbers since the nerf show that the Shiratsuyu is going down to the bottom of the list.

 

Well it's not minimal, it's a whole 0.7km iirc. But it all means nothing if a plane hovers over you, that's where you truly become worse in every conceivable way than an Akatsuki. I already considered Akatsuki better than Shira before the nerf, now it sure as hell is superior. I really don't get this harsh treatment.

 

Welp, at least we have Gajah Madah to look forward to with its DW torps and the only quintuple-launchers of t7 afaik, and second-best stealth in t7. Should be a respectable competitor to Akatsuki and hands-down better than smoke-Shira (or TRB-Shira in a CV match).

[walter3kurtz]

I feel compelled to post in this thread, due to the title.

 

Another post with excellent quality @DasCKD. This attracts a quality of discussion that is not seen in 99% of threads on these forums, unfortunately.

 

OT: I stopped IJN DD's but recently picked up Akatsuki.and Imust say it's excellent. Great torpedoes and guns. I love the destroyers that force you to get somewhat close and risk it all. I mean only a scrub would fire the torpedoes from max range right? You get right to the edge of your detection range and then fire. This is a lot less viable at higher tiers, but I don't feel like good torp boats like Fletcher suffer too much. Are high tier IJN DD's really that hard in comparison to the Fletcher? Can't a Shima with 15 torpedoes compete with that?

[dasCKD]

24 minutes ago, walter3kurtz said:

OT: I stopped IJN DD's but recently picked up Akatsuki.and Imust say it's excellent. Great torpedoes and guns. I love the destroyers that force you to get somewhat close and risk it all. I mean only a scrub would fire the torpedoes from max range right? You get right to the edge of your detection range and then fire. This is a lot less viable at higher tiers, but I don't feel like good torp boats like Fletcher suffer too much. Are high tier IJN DD's really that hard in comparison to the Fletcher? Can't a Shima with 15 torpedoes compete with that?

 

Okay, controversial statement will require full disclosure from me.  I am not a good destroyer player. I've never been, unless said destroyer is basically a cruiser. That said, I will still say that the Shimakaze is the worst destroyer I ever had the displeasure of playing. In terms of general competitiveness, I actually consider her to be below the Yuugumo in terms of raw effectiveness. In fact, I would consider the Yuugumo a superior tier X if she was given the better speed of the Shimakaze.

 

The thing with the Yuugumo is that she has one less torpedo per turret than the Shimakaze, which is actually surprisingly an advantage most of the time. I run the Yuugumo with the F3 torpedoes, which meant that the Yuugumo put torpedoes into the water far more often than the Shimakaze does. That, combined with her concealment, meant that you could take risks and get closer in a Yuugumo than in a Shimakaze. I'm just tredding old ground now, so I'll stop. The Shimakaze is built and balanced around being the sniping version of destroyers which is completely unbalanced. Give her good torpedoes: she'll be utterly overpowered. Give her poor torpedoes, she'll be inadequate. Whilst certainly a novelty, I can't help but, more and more, think that the Shima doesn't have a place in the game.

 

The problem is relatively simple: why does a Shimakaze need 15 torpedoes? To kill a ship? The problem with Japanese torpedoes was never firepower, I find it rare that it would take more than 3-4 torpedoes from a Yuugumo to put down anything that's not a Yamato. The only thing that the 15 torpedoes used to offer was the possibility of blanketing a segment of the map and stopping anything from passing through. The Fletcher can one-shot battleships with the same ease ad Japanese destroyers whilst preserving far superior utility and maneuverability. In a Shima, you loose the concealment advantage even to the Fletcher. The Yuugumo can out-conceal a Fletcher, catching her on a back foot with her excellent (for a destroyer) shells that could cut a Fletcher to ribbons and drop a smoke screen before the Fletcher even gets a proper gun bearing. You can't do that with a Shima. No, the Japanese torpedo boats aren't terrible. In general though, I just feel like they really have no place in the game.

[walter3kurtz]

18 hours ago, dasCKD said:

No, the Japanese torpedo boats aren't terrible. In general though, I just feel like they really have no place in the game.

 

Good explanation, that's the point I missed. The IJN DD's are a sniper class that can't have a too powerful gun.

 

This thread reminds me that I need to work on the main IJN line and get a feeling for how (bad or good) they are. Personally I can't imagine I will regret unlocking Shimakaze. Playing such ships you have to accept that you have a high percentage of hit-or-miss games, where one slight error or tad of bad luck means the difference between a 10k and a 100k damage game.

[AnotherDuck]

18 hours ago, dasCKD said:

The problem is relatively simple: why does a Shimakaze need 15 torpedoes? To kill a ship?

 

The problem is if you feel you need to launch all torpedoes at the same target, at the same time. Send one salvo, wait half a minute, send the remaining two, and if at least one torpedo hit each time, you've pretty much got a kill. The strength of having multiple launchers is the ability to hold them, strange as it may sound.

 

The most you'll ever need to sink a single ship is seven, I believe. Or at least, that's the most I've hit in a single strike, on a single target (102k damage).

[lameoll]

On 21-9-2017 at 5:22 PM, walter3kurtz said:

Can't a Shima with 15 torpedoes compete with that?

shima is a case of throw enough crap to the wall and some will stick.

but  basicly the passive play forces ijn dds to either go for the win and get no damage and just cap.

or go hunting in the enemy spawn for some damage.

while gunboat dds dont have an issue with getting to caps as they can go 1 on 1 with ijn dds 90 % of the time if needed.

[GhostRiderMax123]

Im begining to lose count of how many times I've been wrecked by BB AP/HE :(

[Usotsuki]

What a depressind Thread.

 

I've never been any good but had tons of fun in my Minekaze, a year ago or something like that. Now the Tree looks like a left over, neutered and forgotten...

Trying my luck in the Akatsuki and Hatsu right now, don't have too much fun. Could be that i'm just bad or still too rusty but i never got that Minekaze feeling, not that the old T6 was any better.

 

It seems they gave up on the IJN DD's to me, probably all the effort goes into the Pan Asian DD's with their Radar and Deep Water Torps and US Guns and great concealment.

[BrusilovX]

1 hour ago, Usotsuki said:

and Hatsu right now, don't have too much fun. Could be that i'm just bad or still too rusty but i never got that Minekaze feeling, not that the old T6 was any better.
 

 

After the IJN DD split I had to grind the Hatsuhara to the Shiratsuyu and that was a painful grind - maybe it's one of those free XP sinks in the game but I resisted the temptation,

 

Mind you it did not help starting out with a 3 point IJN captain at TVI - at least I have a Kamikaze to help that grind.

[Deckeru_Maiku]

On 23.7.2017 at 5:54 PM, PzAbteilung said:

IJN dds are so bad that they are only able to kill noob players that will go in straight at same speed more than 10 seconds

 

so... only about 70% of the BB population of all tiers, right? And 40% of the Cruisers... and at least 10% of DD players... (source: personal experience)

 

[AnotherDuck]

3 hours ago, Deckeru_Maiku said:

so... only about 70% of the BB population of all tiers, right?

 

On top tiers, roughly 50% of those BBs will be stationary or sailing slowly backwards. They're kind of the only targets the 20 km Shima torps actually work on with any reliability.

[Usotsuki]

17 hours ago, BrusilovX said:

 

After the IJN DD split I had to grind the Hatsuhara to the Shiratsuyu and that was a painful grind - maybe it's one of those free XP sinks in the game but I resisted the temptation,

 

Mind you it did not help starting out with a 3 point IJN captain at TVI - at least I have a Kamikaze to help that grind.

Yeah, feels bad man. I had back then, the feeling that every "upgrade" was infact either a downgrade or sidegrade to the Minekaze. I have yet to come to a ship that makes me feel good about ditching the minekaze, i hope the Kagerō and Shiratsuyu will do that for me.

 

If the fail again to impress... i guess i will settle for the Pan Asian DD's since they seem to be able to do what IJN are supposed to do.

[dasCKD]

1 hour ago, Usotsuki said:

If the fail again to impress... i guess i will settle for the Pan Asian DD's since they seem to be able to do what IJN are supposed to do.

 

The Americans already exist. If you want a spammy torpedo boat, go with the Germans. If you want something a bit more balanced, the Grozhevoi at tier X isn't terrible either. The Japanese are, at the higher tiers, subpar torpedo boats with close to zero self defense ability.