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A-poi-calypse Now II: the death of torpedo boats

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Another patch another nerf.

 

What i do not get is why Shiratsuyu was given that consumable in the first place, well i do know it was because otherwise Akatsuki would outperform her. 

3x3 on a 76s reload vs 2x4 on a 101s reload. Why is reload bound to the tubes a launcher has, and not tweaked per ship ?

With the current system a ship with more launchers and less torpedoes per launcher but more torpedoes in total is better then the other setup and that is not even figuring in the flexibility more launchers has above less.

They could have given Shiratsuyu a 70s reload on those torpedoes no need for a special consumable, but that wouldn't be a gimmick every line needs to have.

 

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Very interesting read.

I don't know who said this on this forum, but I read something like "You know classes are well balanced if people cry OP to everything in more or less the same way." This can be a good indication about the state of the torpedo-focused destroyers, barely anyone rants about them nowadays. The reason for the occassional CV rants might even stem from some sort of reoccuring novelty of "Oh wow, I got nuked, they can do that?!" as opposed to for example the german battleships, a case which I see as a serious chunk of powercreep, but we don't talk about them anymore, as they don't come in with an occassional boom, they just simply represent the concrete-walled, immovable everyday-reality of the game now. (See also "I get too many overpens, this isn't fair!" etc.)

 

But I am steering off course... I agree that it all started about at the point where CVs started to die out, giving torp DDs longer leashes. This resulted in nerfs, further wrecking the original meta, eventually snowballing into what became basically the dismissing of the rock-paper-scissor scheme. Now lines are blurred by different speeds and concealment distances getting closer to each other, consumables and cpt. skills running wild, and it's sort of "be in sight and shoot with your main guns", while smoke and radar dukes it out. Problem is, this gave the crown to the ships whose original task was already "be in sight and shoot with your main guns", and ships that got "dragged into the light" are still just searching for their places. It was hilarious when WG wrote somehing like that "the reason for the worse performance on part of the Ognevoi is that she should be played more like a torpedo destroyer". I mean, they are sort of not wrong on the reason, I guess.

 

And imagine the purely hypothetical situation where the "CV rework" actually works and the skies get reliably filled with airplanes again. In a demagogic and hyperbolic way, that would be the last nail in the coffin, although it would be somewhat ironic. "Hey, guys, we are back again to counter y.. oh! Oh. We don't need to anymore. Cool. Gotcha."

 

I am pessimistic; things that can't be countered obliviously and anybody seem to be less and less popular, see for example the AA-buffs, but in a way detionation is also such a mechanic. Apparently WG don't really want to hear the sentence "I don't have a direct tool to personally deal with this situation and that's bullsh*t!"  However, I also sort of understand that the original notion was easier to maintain with 30 ships in the game than with 300.

More precisely about the Shira's consumable I can't have an informed opinion as they yet again nerfed something before I was reaching said ship.:Smile_trollface:

(^ Let's say that the reason for the lack of coherence is the ~2:00 a.m.)

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3 hours ago, dasCKD said:

she could end an entire ocean ecosystem just from the salt she is able to generate from multiple ships with one simple salvo

 

:cap_haloween:

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5 hours ago, lup3s said:

 

:cap_haloween:

 

Hey! Ocean ecosystems are very important for the world!

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Just when I started to play DD lines and got to the good stuff well stopping here and now and back to my BB s then.

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Very nice piece, lets hope they listen (and understand).

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I play destroyers because I find it fun to play challenging ships. I play cruisers because sometimes I'm apparently a masochist. I play battleships because sometimes I like to relax, not worry about any mistakes, and still be able to perform just as well as better players of less favoured ships by WG.

 

Wargaming hates torpedoes and stealthy ships. They can claim otherwise, but everything points to them loving battleships above diversity. If it looks big and strong, it should be tougher and stronger than anything else.

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8 minutes ago, AnotherDuck said:

Wargaming hates torpedoes and stealthy ships

 

Only because I think having read the historical posts, people exploited stealth and unlimited torpedoes, to basically spam fire. No real skill involved, get in range, stay hidden and spam spam spam, in the general direction you think the enemy is going.

 

Now if WG would keep ships stealthy but limit the number of torps available so that the skill becomes working your way in close and then surprise attacking, then stealthy torp boats would be worth having.

 

The problem with BB power in this game is that a BB was a monster in real life, you killed it by removing its ability to shoot you with main guns and secondaries by destroying the turrents or killing the crews, then you moved in for the kill with torps. Until WG introduce something like that BB's will always be all powerful and the easiest class to play.

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That awkward moment you realize that a year ago if someone would have asked you "Is IFHE a good idea" and you answer no, but as of today, you entertain the possibility of having guided missiles, because why the hell not? It can't break the game any more than it already is.

 

 

Only because I think having read the historical posts, people exploited stealth and unlimited torpedoes, to basically spam fire. No real skill involved, get in range, stay hidden and spam spam spam, in the general direction you think the enemy is going.

 

Now if WG would keep ships stealthy but limit the number of torps available so that the skill becomes working your way in close and then surprise attacking, then stealthy torp boats would be worth having.

 

The problem with BB power in this game is that a BB was a monster in real life, you killed it by removing its ability to shoot you with main guns and secondaries by destroying the turrents or killing the crews, then you moved in for the kill with torps. Until WG introduce something like that BB's will always be all powerful and the easiest class to play.

 

People exploited the fact that they had lower detection to destroy the ships they're supposed to counter?
Stop the presses, the small, unarmored ships that can't rely just on evasion also rely on not being seen.
And no skill?
Try to use an IJN torpedo boat. If you just spam spam spam, you'll do on average 28k damage at tier 6.
That's half the HP of one of the ship you're supposed to counter.

Limiting the amount of torpedoes? 
Why in the love of god?
Even at a "overconfident" 7-8km, a single maneuver means missing the entire salvo.
Terrible. 
 

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5 minutes ago, Fat_Maniac said:

Only because I think having read the historical posts, people exploited stealth and unlimited torpedoes, to basically spam fire. No real skill involved, get in range, stay hidden and spam spam spam, in the general direction you think the enemy is going.

 

Unlike the current BB (and with variations, CA) play, which is to stay at range, bow in, and spam spam spam AP. No real skill involved. Why is it that one thing isn't allowed for one type of ships, but is for another?

 

WG can't live in the past. Back then a lot more people had no clue about how to avoid torpedoes, and now they're more informed, and torpedoes are nerfed to hell and back. So why keep the same mentality?

 

The moment a DD focused on torpedoes gets decent stats, it gets nerfed hard. Battleships? Nah, let's create more overpowered ones to balance that out.

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1 minute ago, AnotherDuck said:

 

Unlike the current BB (and with variations, CA) play, which is to stay at range, bow in, and spam spam spam AP. No real skill involved. Why is it that one thing isn't allowed for one type of ships, but is for another?

 

WG can't live in the past. Back then a lot more people had no clue about how to avoid torpedoes, and now they're more informed, and torpedoes are nerfed to hell and back. So why keep the same mentality?

 Because to WG angling and aiming your guns is skill? 

 

And agreed Torps are easy to avoid if you expect them to be coming and use those funny things called the WASD keys.

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Shiratsuyu is getting nerfed? Oh, go suck a barrel of vaguely torpedo-shaped objects, WG! What's so bad about the Shiratsuyu if abominations like Flint, Edinburgh, Black and Missouri get to exist? 

 

13 minutes ago, Fat_Maniac said:

 

Only because I think having read the historical posts, people exploited stealth and unlimited torpedoes, to basically spam fire. No real skill involved, get in range, stay hidden and spam spam spam, in the general direction you think the enemy is going.

 

The problem with BB power in this game is that a BB was a monster in real life, you killed it by removing its ability to shoot you with main guns and secondaries by destroying the turrents or killing the crews, then you moved in for the kill with torps. hitting it with bombs or torpedoing it.

Spam? I do more spamming in my Warspite than any high tier DD does with it's torpedoes. Now the good old Umikaze with around 20 secs reload time, that's spam, but a cycle time of more than a minute? How is that spam? Even if we are talking the torpwalls, that's once every 3+ minutes and that's generous.

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12 minutes ago, Fat_Maniac said:

 Because to WG angling and aiming your guns is skill? 

 

And agreed Torps are easy to avoid if you expect them to be coming and use those funny things called the WASD keys.

 

But maneuvering and predicting how people will react a minute in advance is not?

 

Remember this thing about having your opinion being backed by experience?
Well how about you actually TRY to use torpedoes and more specifically DDs with torpedoes before you claim it's no skill spam ?

 

Cleared up point, message above not relevant.

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2 minutes ago, Exocet6951 said:

 

Well how about you actually TRY to use torpedoes and more specifically DDs with torpedoes before you claim it's no skill spam ?

 No my friend, I think I worded it wrongly.

 

WG perceived it as no skill spamming, after listening to the BBabies.

 

I actually thing DD play is by far the hardest skill to master in the game. Trying to predict where the enemy going is skill.

 

And as for trying I do plan too I just cannot decided which DD line I want to play, a gunboat, torp boat or combi.

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16 minutes ago, Fat_Maniac said:

 

Only because I think having read the historical posts, people exploited stealth and unlimited torpedoes, to basically spam fire. No real skill involved, get in range, stay hidden and spam spam spam, in the general direction you think the enemy is going.

 

Now if WG would keep ships stealthy but limit the number of torps available so that the skill becomes working your way in close and then surprise attacking, then stealthy torp boats would be worth having.

 

The problem with BB power in this game is that a BB was a monster in real life, you killed it by removing its ability to shoot you with main guns and secondaries by destroying the turrents or killing the crews, then you moved in for the kill with torps. Until WG introduce something like that BB's will always be all powerful and the easiest class to play.

Considering that even then the survival rates of BBs were much higher than the ones of DDs, you seem very mistaken about the necessary skills.

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1 minute ago, ColonelPete said:

Considering that even then the survival rates of BBs were much higher than the ones of DDs, you seem very mistaken about the necessary skills.

Please read my post above yours. I was trying to say WG percieve it that way, just didn't say it right. Ooopps

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and here I was considering coming back to this game... ABORT MISSION

 

But seriously, why did they nerf torpedo destroyers? Are they going to bring in a new class?

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5 minutes ago, Fat_Maniac said:

 No my friend, I think I worded it wrongly.

 

WG perceived it as no skill spamming, after listening to the BBabies.

 

I actually thing DD play is by far the hardest skill to master in the game. Trying to predict where the enemy going is skill.

 

And as for trying I do plan too I just cannot decided which DD line I want to play, a gunboat, torp boat or combi.


Fair enough, I edited my message to reflect your train of thought.

Still, limiting torpedoes just isn't the way.
In fact, nerf after nerf to DDs is not the way.

That's how we get so many damn BBs, followed by idiotic solutions such as the Kebab, current iterations of AP bombs and more and more powerful BBs just to counter other BBs.

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Just now, Exocet6951 said:


Fair enough.

Still, limiting torpedoes just isn't the way.
In fact, nerf after nerf to DDs is not the way.

That's how we get so many damn BBs, followed by idiotic solutions such as the Kebab, current iterations of AP bombs and more and more powerful BBs just to counter other BBs.

You forgot to add 

 

And BB's that don't push and tank damage

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4 minutes ago, Exocet6951 said:

That's how we get so many damn BBs, followed by idiotic solutions such as the Kebab, current iterations of AP bombs and more and more powerful BBs just to counter other BBs.

 

3 minutes ago, Fat_Maniac said:

And BB's that don't push and tank damage

 

And what do the AP bombs nerf? The battleships actually pushing, and especially the ones built for pushing.

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6 minutes ago, Fat_Maniac said:

You forgot to add 

 

And BB's that don't push and tank damage


That was never going to happen anyways.
You give the random online gamer a tool with long range and HUGE survivability, and he'll use that long range to increase his survivability even more.

With things like that, and when a community gets that idea ingrained in its collective heads, the only two ways to break the cycle is either over the course of years try to correct the problem, or to just put something scarier behind BBs so they feel compelled to move up rather than fall behind.

CVs should be that thing.
CVs with large bombs, anti-ship rockets, heavy module damage, the whole shebang.

 

 

2 minutes ago, AnotherDuck said:

 

And what do the AP bombs nerf? The battleships actually pushing, and especially the ones built for pushing.


That's incredibly naive though.
German BBs don't push either, and are just an incredibly hard thing to kill if played right.
AP bombs nerf a branch of ships that have been overperforming since day 1.

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Make Japanese Destroyers great again, team up with Kancolle :cap_haloween::cap_money::Smile_bajan2::Smile_hiding:

As an aside i think the process to make Battleships fear the destroyers at high tier again is when the british begin to appear with single fire torpedos as it allows for much more flexibility in guessing course changes. 
But IJN destroyers do have problems and i do need to take my Shima out for a few cruises before this nerf happens but my days of moving her up close holding a cap and ambusing DD's trying to take me out at close range thanks to the torp boost is prob gone. 


At least we have Kamikaze

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20 minutes ago, Exocet6951 said:

That's incredibly naive though.

German BBs don't push either, and are just an incredibly hard thing to kill if played right.
AP bombs nerf a branch of ships that have been overperforming since day 1.

 

I've been playing different games than you, then. Sure, a lot of them just snipe, but there are those who do push (myself included). Those are the ones who're going to be punished the most. Not the ones sitting back with a bunch of other ships for a good combined AA rating and easily defended by friendly CV.

 

Looking at the stats, no, they don't really overperform much. Sure, they're overall above average, but there's not a whole lot of difference. And if you want to look at overperformers, look at the premium ships.

 

But the point is, the nerf comes exactly where it's not needed, and it only encourages even more sniping. It's like reducing tankiness to encourage people to play more aggressively.

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@dasCKD

In your opinion, would you say Harekaze is a good addition to the IJN DD lineup (with her multiple gun configurations, allowing the player to choose slightly different styles of play for her), or not really anything significant?

I'm finding the ability to rely on my guns more quite fun, actually.

 

Would you say a good idea for the Japanese DDs is to improve their gun performance at high tiers so they can more reliably defend themselves against enemy DDs?

 

Off topic:

Spoiler

@AnotherDuck

I love your avatar.

"Kamo poi!"

"It's, like, a duck!"

 

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