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Blackeon

Operation Newport - demo of design failure

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Defend Operation Newport - demos design failure

So you have a main task and a series of secondary tasks.

You get most reward from the main task, and a series of rewards for also completing the secondaries.

All good sense so far... but...

You don't have a great team, so you fail the first secondary task. Result = less reward, all fine and dandy.

But the main attack now starts earlier and you don't get a reinforcing carrier! So your team isn't doing well so they punish you by making the mission even harder?

This is bad design, this discourages, this means I will spend less on the game.

Better design - if the team is doing well don't give the extra support and give them greater reward. If the team is doing badly give the support and lower the reward. How hard is that?

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Newport isnt that hard, it just requiers that you dont have a bunch of potatoes. if anythig, the operations after newport were too easy.

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1 hour ago, Blackeon said:

 

This is bad design, this discourages, this means I will spend less on the game.

 

 

Oh no, perhaps they will make it easier for you because you can't kill some bots and will play less. :Smile_sad:

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I wonder what is rate of victory for players and what is rate of fail. From my point the design is complete idiotic. If you expect random players to play such mission more than 2-3 times, you are dreaming. After 2 fails any normal people will go in other places. To fight with t6 against t8 full waves of bots with aimbot is complete maso.

Fail. no surprise from a designer who listen on pro-ace players that will not play more than once this ... frustration 

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26 minutes ago, Captain_Placeholder said:

Newport isnt that hard, it just requiers that you dont have a bunch of potatoes. if anythig, the operations after newport were too easy.

If people are not being bunch of potatoes why are here in this mission?

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2 hours ago, Captain_Placeholder said:

Newport isnt that hard, it just requiers that you dont have a bunch of potatoes. if anythig, the operations after newport were too easy.

This :cap_rambo:

 

Newport was the only PvE mission I didnt get 4-5 stars in the first attempt. It was a challenge to complete more than 1-2 seconday tasks (killing the Hiruy if in a Ryujo was absurdly easy - just spawncamp it with all 5 squads)

The other 3 missions could almost be solo'ed in the Ryujo.

4 hours ago, Blackeon said:

.....

1) This is bad design, this discourages, this means I will spend less on the game.

2) Better design - if the team is doing well don't give the extra support and give them greater reward. If the team is doing badly give the support and lower the reward. How hard is that?

 

1) Actually the design of Newport meant I spent more time on Newport than all other scenarios combined. It was the only challenging operation that wasn't an auto-win, auto 5 star.

The others we so damned easy and boring after the first playthrough. Sure the reward for getting 5 stars in every game is okay, but no living person can suffer that level of boredom more than 2-3 times.

(and I imagine WG has taken this into account, thus the coming "hard" and "normal" difficulty setting for operations)

 

2) Uhm, you DO get extra support if the team does badly?

Remember those 2 dds spawning if 4 or more players die?

Maybe it is a matter of numbers tweaking, and increase the number and type of support ships showing up on the "normal" difficulty setting.

 

I suspect WG is using Newport as a testbed for the "hard" mode, while the other ones are "normal" mode games. 

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3 hours ago, BOldMan said:

I wonder what is rate of victory for players and what is rate of fail. From my point the design is complete idiotic. If you expect random players to play such mission more than 2-3 times, you are dreaming. After 2 fails any normal people will go in other places. To fight with t6 against t8 full waves of bots with aimbot is complete maso.

Fail. no surprise from a designer who listen on pro-ace players that will not play more than once this ... frustration 

 

Sorry, but if you can't handle some bots with "aimbot" (Seriously, why is this even a point. This isn't more helpful than all the oh so unfair aim mods out there) you are doing it wrong. Broadside sailing cruiser are easy targets, DDs always get spotted before they launch their torpedoes and CAs show perfect broadside for this, Bots always take the same routes besides trying to avoid torpedoes...

Hell, you can wreck everything the games throws at you if you don't play like a buffoon. Besides maybe the Izumo but that's what you have a team for.

Btw: Why don't you complain about first waves of this mode, too? Fighting Tier III and IV with a tier VI is definitvely unfair/beneath you, too, isn't it?

Yes, it is hard to save the CV but once you see the pattern in which it spawns you can adapt beforehand, e.g. taking appropriate ships and sail to the spawnpoint before the CV actually spawns. But if you stop playing the operations after the second try because mimimi, you just don't deserve any better rewards, or any rewards at all if you couldn't at least fulfill main objective.

 

To see a global win/lose statistic, maybe even for every single task, would be interesting, though.

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It's not very enjoyable, really. You need a team knowing by heart what's going to happen and with the strongest T 6. A pair of potatoes and/or T 5 and you can say goodbye to victory, let alone stars. There's just too many strong enemy ships around, the common pattern is that potatoes die or get out of position, then we can't stop the third wave, then I die to a hail of HE spam. In the most succesful battles the Romeo dies to a Luger 9 mm round that Hipper's captain fired from the bridge before his ship blew up. Fun and engaging as a fistfight against a 100 kg man on drugs. Saying "It's not bad mission design because you can succeed with a competent team" doesn't really convince me as missions should be designed keeping in mind the skill floor of the common player. This means that I must pray hard to be in a competent team in order to enjoy my game time: sorry, I'd rather just keep playing randoms then, at least the rewards when I lose are higher. I don't think I managed a 50% WR in this operation and the most stars I've got this week was three, most of the victories have been 0 stars.

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Cosseria, I win 80% of my Newport battles. The only time I lose is if I make a mistake and get killed - in which case I deserved to lose. Repairing when you're badly damaged is the key to winning when playing with potatoes.

The quality of my team-mates determines how many stars we get.

I do at least as well in my Omaha as my Cleveland in Newport. I have IFHE on the Omaha but not on the Cleveland. I can hit DD's at range easier in the Omaha. For the other missions I've been doing better in my Cleveland.

I think the difficulty of Newport is about right and the other missions are too easy. Newport's easier than the Halloween mission.

 

Blackeon, the way I see it is 3rd wave is crucial to getting 5 stars on Newport. Kill everything before they cross the green circle and you've a much easier ride to 5 stars. This mission rewards aggression vs the 3rd wave - which I think is fair enough and is reasonable game design.

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18 hours ago, bushwacker001 said:

 

Oh no, perhaps they will make it easier for you because you can't kill some bots and will play less. :Smile_sad:

Insult me if you want, but the game design needs to accommodate players at all levels in a way which challenges the good and supports the less good, and tailor the rewards accordingly.

Maybe all these modes are easy if you are a great player, or even if you are just better than average (don't believe a merely better than average player can carry a weak team). My point is challenge the good and give them great rewards, but recognise that about half you players are going to be below average.

What I am suggesting is maybe they could design the game better and make this a better experience for all and earn more money.

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15 hours ago, GulvkluderGuld said:

2) Uhm, you DO get extra support if the team does badly?

Remember those 2 dds spawning if 4 or more players die?

Maybe it is a matter of numbers tweaking, and increase the number and type of support ships showing up on the "normal" difficulty setting.

I suspect WG is using Newport as a testbed for the "hard" mode, while the other ones are "normal" mode games. 

If you don't hold off the first waves before 10 mins you don't get the CV, and that is a massive hit and makes the mission much harder.

 

WG have a testbed, the test server. 

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1. Play CV yourself and know what to do (either Ryujo or Independence works).

2. Have a half competent team (i.e. teammates not dying to the first wave, not playing the scenario for the first time and able of doing at least decent damage)

3. ...

4. Profit

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19 hours ago, Captain_Placeholder said:

Newport isnt that hard, it just requiers that you dont have a bunch of potatoes. if anythig, the operations after newport were too easy.

Potato or otherwise this mission needs more coordination than the others, that's why is appears harder.

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5 hours ago, Blackeon said:

If you don't hold off the first waves before 10 mins you don't get the CV, and that is a massive hit and makes the mission much harder.

 

WG have a testbed, the test server. 

 

I never quite understood when you get the Hiruy and when you get the Izumo. 

Usually if you get the CV, then the Izumo will spawn, but I thought it was related to how the initial waves spawned.

Playing ranked now so cba to check it.

 

You are definitely right the mission is much easier with the CV than without him.

I only got 5 stars when the Izumo spawned, which I realized it because we have that CV.

 

WG is known to release premium ships to the live server with experimental consumables/characteristics (Flint, Kutuzov, Missouri etc)

I see no reason they couldnt do the same with scenarios.

Never said I approve of their methods, just that I understand them

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21 hours ago, Lin3 said:

Cosseria, I win 80% of my Newport battles. The only time I lose is if I make a mistake and get killed - in which case I deserved to lose. Repairing when you're badly damaged is the key to winning when playing with potatoes.

The quality of my team-mates determines how many stars we get.

I do at least as well in my Omaha as my Cleveland in Newport. I have IFHE on the Omaha but not on the Cleveland. I can hit DD's at range easier in the Omaha. For the other missions I've been doing better in my Cleveland.

I think the difficulty of Newport is about right and the other missions are too easy. Newport's easier than the Halloween mission.

 

Blackeon, the way I see it is 3rd wave is crucial to getting 5 stars on Newport. Kill everything before they cross the green circle and you've a much easier ride to 5 stars. This mission rewards aggression vs the 3rd wave - which I think is fair enough and is reasonable game design.

 

I'll repair when badly damaged - yes, then after 15 seconds I'm on fire again because a higher tier Japanese CA is firing on me with her higher tier fire modifier, and I die shortly thereafter. I've never ever survived to see the end of this bloody mission and after 4 defeats and a starless win this evening, I'll stand my point about poor mission design and call it a day.

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The amount of players dying to the first wave is disgusting.

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1 hour ago, Zemeritt said:

The amount of players dying to the first wave is disgusting.

 

All the noobs trying to torp the bots and dying in the first wave is nothing short of mind boggeling.

And often they miss their own torps!

 

It reminds me of the good old days when the Tirpitz came out and every Tirpitz and their mother tried to torp my DDs :cap_popcorn:

 

If you know how to Ryujo, Newport isnt that bad.

I average 250k dmg in mine, best dmg i think was a bit over 310k, Not sure about winrate but 2/3 at least.

The key is stopping the 3rd wave before it crosses the green line.

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23 hours ago, Cosseria said:

... missions should be designed keeping in mind the skill floor of the common player...

That would mean that bots spawn , but never move or shoot back and even then players would have constant heal because even then common player on skill floor would die without heal.

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