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KaRmOnKeY

AP BOMBS overpowered(and cvs generally)

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Remove manual drops, allow the whole hangar in air simultaneously, put 6 to 8 CVs in each CV game, and remove CV def AAs = gg, CVs fixed without ELO mm.

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11 hours ago, Dampfboot said:

 

The things is, there are ways to avoid torpedos, in particular by teaming up with others. There is no way to avoid the CV because even defensive AA doesn't scare him.

 

Wat?

 

Seriously, I don't even know how I would start adressing this comment with its outright falsehoods or supplied solution that is instantly disregarded because, uhh ... outright falsehoods. So to reiterate: wat?

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1 hour ago, KaRmOnKeY said:

the differens between a below average BB player and an above average BB player, dosent make or brake a game.. it make a differens and a noticipel one too.. 

same goes for all other classes except CV

the differens between a good CV and a bad CV player can be on its own gamechanging..

and if something like that happens you made the tool to strong. i know there is a differens between different CV espicially KAGA Enterprice and tier 9 and 10 jj CV..

but if you keep making the hard to use and understand tool so every joe can play. then when that tool comes in the hands of ppl who are good at it. they become to strong, aka overpowered...

i am not a cv player i have under 10 total i think between beta and the current game, i dont like that kind of gameplay and werent good at it and said me nothing.. like im not a big fan of BBs either to slow at handling firing and gameplay..

different shoes for different ppl.... 

but when time after time see the effect of a good CV player, then there is a problem.. like arty in WOT.. (where i played arty alot) they made a change there too gave them another role and how they impact the game..

but the talk about AA spec all your ships.. or stay close to other AA ships well you cant allways.. speed diff, spawn diff. different roles diff. like wanting to stay close to AA ships in german BB.s then go in between a million small islands to keep cover then to get torpd.. and some one allways is on the out side of that boble right 

 

so all i am saying if the tool becomes allmigthy in good hands then you the tool too good

 

 

you need to write better English, but I have said all a long that CV's can be too skill dependent, that doesn't make them over powered.  Also, even without a CV on your team who is capable you can still avoid damage if you STICK TOGETHER and the cruisers support the battleships, with the battleships pushing mutually to allow cruisers to get within their optimal gun range without being hammered

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12 minutes ago, Aotearas said:

 

Wat?

 

Seriously, I don't even know how I would start adressing this comment with its outright falsehoods or supplied solution that is instantly disregarded because, uhh ... outright falsehoods. So to reiterate: wat?

 

Just look at the targeting of Enterprise AP bombers with and without defensive AA fire. Got the issue?

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Battleships need a counter, german ones in particular.  its difficult to citadel them.  you can't torpedo them because hydro.  it takes a long time to burn one down and he can probably hammer you in the mean time.  We'll do a deal.  we will tone down AP Bombs if we can remove hydro from all battleships.  But its true USN strike squadrons react better to defensive fire than IJN ones, but IJN CV's have so many other things going for them right now its needed

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8 minutes ago, Dampfboot said:

 

Just look at the targeting of Enterprise AP bombers with and without defensive AA fire. Got the issue?


You mean other than turning just a little bit on the DB's final approach so it has high chances to miss completely, with at the very best only one solid hit?

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Another day, another "CVs are the reason everything sucks." topic. CVs are a skill based ship type that is less forgiving than BBs or CAs, can you stop whining about the fact that your team's CV was less competent than the enemy's already? Thank you, have a nice day.

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7 minutes ago, Tirande said:

Another day, another "CVs are the reason everything sucks." topic. CVs are a skill based ship type that is less forgiving than BBs or CAs, can you stop whining about the fact that your team's CV was less competent than the enemy's already? Thank you, have a nice day.

 

indeed.  there is still the issue that IJN CV's out perform USN ones at every tier.  This needs addressing by buffs to USN CV's.  Otherwise CV's are mostly fine

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1 minute ago, lankylad11_lankylad said:

 

indeed.  there is still the issue that IJN CV's out perform USN ones at every tier.  This needs addressing by buffs to USN CV's.  Otherwise CV's are mostly fine


I think it's a bit more complex than just a USN buff (which it needs)
IJN CVs might need a small loadout change to make them less superior in every way and universal, at least at higher tier.


 

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Just now, Exocet6951 said:


I think it's a bit more complex than just a USN buff (which it needs)
IJN CVs might need a small loadout change to make them less superior in every way and universal, at least at higher tier.


 

maybe yes. I resent the fact that IJN CV's can do everything all at once very well.  Hiryu, Shokaku, Taiho, Hakuryu I am looking at you whereas the American ones can't.  Servicing times are also an issue.  either IJN ones need to be increased or USN ones need decreasing.  A Ranger TB squad takes 41 seconds to service for a squad of 6.  A Kaga squad of 6 takes 29 seconds.  There is no reason for this gap to exist

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39 minutes ago, lankylad11_lankylad said:

Battleships need a counter, german ones in particular.  its difficult to citadel them.  you can't torpedo them because hydro.  it takes a long time to burn one down and he can probably hammer you in the mean time.  We'll do a deal.  we will tone down AP Bombs if we can remove hydro from all battleships.  But its true USN strike squadrons react better to defensive fire than IJN ones, but IJN CV's have so many other things going for them right now its needed

And why do they work best agist the BB line that is actually build around the concept of pushing (Good mid to short range armor,exelent secondarys, Profile inacurate Main Guns?)  If you want to prmote shoot and fade 13km plus BBs then ist a good Thing If you want to have BBs that actually not camp the Blue line ist not. If you want a conter for BBs hit all BBs not just a selected line.......

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4 minutes ago, lankylad11_lankylad said:

maybe yes. I resent the fact that IJN CV's can do everything all at once very well.  Hiryu, Shokaku, Taiho, Hakuryu I am looking at you whereas the American ones can't.  Servicing times are also an issue.  either IJN ones need to be increased or USN ones need decreasing.  A Ranger TB squad takes 41 seconds to service for a squad of 6.  A Kaga squad of 6 takes 29 seconds.  There is no reason for this gap to exist


That's the best way I would explain it too.
Maybe.

Thank you for using that term, it's probably one of the most important one someone could use when talking about game balance.

Especially on a class with such potential, WG needs to take a very, very careful approach.
First of all, a USN rework so they aren't simply inferior unless you take the scrub AS loadout, which screams "I want to waste 2 our of 24 slots"
After a while, review how they interact with IJN CVs.
If there's still a disparity, which I think will happen (though I will freely admit it's a very amateur, receiving end opinion), then take a look at IJN CVs.

 

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6 minutes ago, lankylad11_lankylad said:

 

indeed.  there is still the issue that IJN CV's out perform USN ones at every tier.  This needs addressing by buffs to USN CV's.  Otherwise CV's are mostly fine

I disagree that they are fine, they're underpowered in a way since there is LITERALLY no counterplay to a Des Moines or Minotaur stealth AAing down full groups of T10 planes in seconds. It doesn't matter if you're trying to avoid them, Minotaur's AA aura is 17,2km in diameter and you don't spot him for the first or so kilometer.. so by the time you notice you're losing planes the squadron is more or less gone.

 

Also, buffing US CVs will likely make them superior to IJN ones due to the constant stream of buffs to the USN Fighters; the result is that buffing the USN in other ways will have to be offset by the Fighters taking a dive in power. Right now US Fighters completely crap all over IJN fighters; which needs to be adressed. Additionally, it's funny that the USN Premium CVs outclass IJN CVs in every way. XD Though Big E is kinda bad.

 

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5 minutes ago, Spellfire40 said:

And why do they work best agist the BB line that is actually build around the concept of pushing (Good mid to short range armor,exelent secondarys, Profile inacurate Main Guns?)  If you want to prmote shoot and fade 13km plus BBs then ist a good Thing If you want to have BBs that actually not camp the Blue line ist not. If you want a conter for BBs hit all BBs not just a selected line.......

because they seem to be more tanky than other BB's and don't get punished for things other lines get punished for.  But I don't see FdG's and GK's pushing all the time anyway.  the way to hit all BB's is simply to make USN CV's competitive

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Just now, Tirande said:

I disagree that they are fine, they're underpowered in a way since there is LITERALLY no counterplay to a Des Moines or Minotaur stealth AAing down full groups of T10 planes in seconds. It doesn't matter if you're trying to avoid them, Minotaur's AA aura is 17,2km in diameter and you don't spot him for the first or so kilometer.. so by the time you notice you're losing planes the squadron is more or less gone.

 

Also, buffing US CVs will likely make them superior to IJN ones due to the constant stream of buffs to the USN Fighters; the result is that buffing the USN in other ways will have to be offset by the Fighters taking a dive in power. Right now US Fighters completely crap all over IJN fighters; which needs to be adressed. Additionally, it's funny that the USN Premium CVs outclass IJN CVs in every way. XD Though Big E is kinda bad.

 

yeah ok.  I'll accept that.  Ok, how do you close the gap between the performance of USN and IJN regular CV's without buffing USN CV's.  But actually, tongue in cheek, IJN CV's have out performed USN ones for over a year so the USN ones deserve a year of over performing themselves :D.  I was just talking about reducing servicing times for USN CV's and giving Bogue, Ranger, Lexington and Essex different loadouts. I would genuinely buy Ranger or Lexington if they were competitive even though I own Saipan and Enterprise.  Nothing drastic.  I resent the 2-2-2/2-3-2/2-3-3 loadouts of IJN CV's though as they can do everything well at the same time.  USN CV's can't.  They have to choose one thing and suck at everything else

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1 minute ago, lankylad11_lankylad said:

because they seem to be more tanky than other BB's and don't get punished for things other lines get punished for.  But I don't see FdG's and GK's pushing all the time anyway.  the way to hit all BB's is simply to make USN CV's competitive

Again how do you make US CV competitiv by making them a deadly conter of exactly one line of BBs if you exclude Seal clubung T6 when your top tir?

 

And German BBS are tanky only at Close range and even there iyou can get plenty of pens just citadeling is hard. The Point is a Brawling BB Needs to be able to get into brawling distance with is a risk in itself ( thogh i agree that sonar is.......stupid and unneeded if you just pushs in a direction one of your DDs are heading anyway)

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4 minutes ago, lankylad11_lankylad said:

yeah ok.  I'll accept that.  Ok, how do you close the gap between the performance of USN and IJN regular CV's without buffing USN CV's.  But actually, tongue in cheek, IJN CV's have out performed USN ones for over a year so the USN ones deserve a year of over performing themselves :D.  I was just talking about reducing servicing times for USN CV's and giving Bogue, Ranger, Lexington and Essex different loadouts. I would genuinely buy Ranger or Lexington if they were competitive even though I own Saipan and Enterprise.  Nothing drastic.  I resent the 2-2-2/2-3-2/2-3-3 loadouts of IJN CV's though as they can do everything well at the same time.  USN CV's can't.  They have to choose one thing and suck at everything else

Tbh, I do like my 2/0/2 Ranger to piss in people's cheerios. With Demo Expert it's quite funny to drop, get 3 fires, see the guy ram his Damecon and then bombing him for another 2-3 fires so be burns down while your fighters sweep the sky.... (great for farming Clear Sky flags with, Saipan and Kaga also do a great job at it... Big E is less efficient imho) Also, lower tier US CVs have weaker torps than higher tier ones; but IJN ones stay the same from Hosho to Hakuryu. So in a way they already are stronger.... it's just that the load outs need to change, imho they should have 2/1/2 loadouts or simular effects; give them a few fighters in 2 groups and then give them strike planes so they can perform offensive duties as well.

 

The only IJN CV who will suffer alot from this change (outside of Kaga but people QQ about her being OP when she really is exceptionally UP when uptiered) will likely be Ryujo since her planes are utter garbage (yay Kaga has them as well!), her reserves are garbage and even if you strafe Indy planes with your fighters, if they engage your fighters through the strafe your fighters die instantly without the Indy strafing and he loses maybe 1 or 2 planes. Which means Ryujo's planes need a major buff in my eyes to deal with Indy getting a buff.

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10 hours ago, avenger121 said:

 

Because CVs only do dmg and solely rely on it, that is why the main job of CVs in competitive is spotting, because all the competitive clans have simply no clue about CVs at all, unlike you.

 

Instead of arguing why my argument is wrong you went straigth ahead and insulted me, what a surprise, it is almost as if this isnt your usual way of reaction.

 

You are the one quoting damage numbers, so this bit of hypocrisy falls flat (just like someone who never touches CVs commenting on how CVs work pretending that someone who doesn't take part in a nonexistent competitive scene shouldn't be able to talk about ships he actually uses).

 

Also if you want to avoid "insults" stop saying things that are so incredibly stupid because when you do people will point out how incredibly stupid they are.

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3 hours ago, lankylad11_lankylad said:

Battleships need a counter, german ones in particular.  its difficult to citadel them.  you can't torpedo them because hydro.  it takes a long time to burn one down and he can probably hammer you in the mean time.  We'll do a deal.  we will tone down AP Bombs if we can remove hydro from all battleships.  But its true USN strike squadrons react better to defensive fire than IJN ones, but IJN CV's have so many other things going for them right now its needed

hammer? With what. 

 

when the german BBs can hit you with their main batteries, you can already ram them to death.

 

their main guns are incredibly inaccurate and unreliable. That are tankt at close range but most battles are long range artillery encounters - at least on the eu-server. German BBs are almost useless in those engagements. 

 

its ok to introduce the AP bombs but being able to one-shot an equally tiered BB is too much. in addition, they can wreck cruisers as well. I think, that's not really a good thing, because they already are shell magnets.

 

btw. I don't think its fair to delete cruisers with one volley at max range as well.

 

further adjustments are needed.

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18 minutes ago, KaLeuWillenbrock said:

 

when the german BBs can hit you with their main batteries, you can already ram them to death.

 

their main guns are incredibly inaccurate and unreliable. That are tankt at close range but most battles are long range artillery encounters - at least on the eu-server. German BBs are almost useless in those engagements. 

 

 

Is that why the inaccurate German BBs are always on par with others in terms of damage, despite having fewer and smaller guns?

The only reason the German BBs' stats have gone down is that they're fighting more and more BBs.
One year in, and they're still hopelessly broken because of a hilarious armored deck + secondary+ good AA+ maneuverability combo


It's still the single most damaging branch and element to be introduced in the game.

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14 hours ago, avenger121 said:

A: CVs are OP, they are the top dmg dealer, possess the highest mobility, highest survivability and best spotting. Nerf their dmg output to make them balanced.

 

B: Hurr durr, CVs are not OP, dmg is only so high because the random player is trash that cant properly play, skill shouldnt matter for balance!11!!

 

So you're denying the fact that not only the average player is trash, but that CVs benefit from that. Why they do so more than other classes I have explained previously (hint: rarity of AA cruisers + auto attack).

I stated that the lowest possible denominator, which currently average skill is pretty much at, shouldn't be the basis for balance. Nor your misguided views about it. You nerf CVs? DDs become, according to your view, overpowered. Nerf DDs? BBs become overpowered (well, more so than they are now). Nerf those? Cruisers become overpowered. Nerf these again and you're back at CVs. Nerfing a class because they have more potential influence than others is nothing less than absolutely retarded, because their potential influence is in direct relation to the other classes as is typical in an asymmetric system. You will never reach something even remotely close to resembling balance. What you will do however is murder the game.

It's also still funny that you think survivability is a meaningful stat for CVs when you realize how winrate is not. Losing planes may not cost your team points, but it can be far worse by giving the enemy team large windows of opportunity to exploit.

Also, guess what CVs cannot do? Cap, tank, deal consistent damage, waste resources and so on. CVs are extremely limited in other areas to compensate for their high mobility, spotting and burst damage. But hey, better ignore that so you can continue to justify being a solo sailing scrub.

 

14 hours ago, avenger121 said:

A: Look at competitive, CVs dont rely on dmg there, still they are essential to every line-up, there is even a "only 1 CV per team" rule in every single tournament.

 

B: Nononono, spotting doesnt work in randoms, because the average player is trash [suddenly skill does matter for balance].

 

And again you're denying that the average player is trash. You're funny, I give you that. You're also completely ignoring the fact that other ship classes and nations are restricted and that competitive matches show that not only are the counters to CVs viable, they're extremely effective to the point that tournaments are considering to introduce CVs with planes that are technically speaking two tiers higher. Though that's understandable considering it doesn't fit your pitiful narrative.

 

14 hours ago, avenger121 said:

However, the bad play/missing teamwork of the random player is part of the game environment of the randoms mode, it is not the same as balancing around indiviual player skill.

 

Which is precisely why basic teamwork is unachievable in other competitive multiplayer team games even when matched with randoms.

Oh wait.

Up to a certain skill level that may hold true, but do you really want to balance around the lowest of low? You may as well remove all classes except BBs then. Also benefits your idea of balance since then every class has the same amount of potential influence.

The problem is that too many of the playerbase is trash, not that there will always be trash players. The latter cannot be changed, the former very much can as proven by literally every other similar game out there.

 

13 hours ago, avenger121 said:

Let me quote Flamu on this:

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/147093110

1:15:45 onwards

 

Yes, it is easy to deal damage in a CV in the current meta. I have also explained why, but I guess that fell on deaf ears because it, again, doesn't fit your narrative. Just keep on ignoring facts for the sake of whining. Does wonders for your credibility.

 

As for your apparently "awesome" PTS game (which already invalidates itself for being a PTS game, really), it's pitiful. Despite apparently focusing a Montana all game, you have no kills to show for it. You got 6 plane kills, which is exceptionally bad even if you played against an AS Midway. You have spotted as much damage as you dealt, that basically means your team carried you to victory. Heck, you even tanked 200k damage, inflating your score, making your final total of 148k damage along with 1,3k exp nothing short of trash. 

In short, you have shown that, unsurprisingly, you lack fundamental knowledge of CVs. Congratulations! You have fabulously demonstrated that you have no idea what you're talking about.

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the secondaries are going to be fixed soon. 

 

hopefully. German BBs are strong but a good chunk of their damage comes from the fires they can set with their secondaries.

the guns are unreliable at long to medium ranges. Why are they on par with the other ships? Because they go into close combat to utilize their secondaries and turtle back armor. At longer ganges, they are mostly useless, because their damage is unreliable. Even at close ranges you can get everything from multiple citadels, to overpens and misses. 

 

the German BBs should have the standard hydro or a version with less range and duration. This would set them a bit apart from the german cruisers.

 

nonetheless. The AP bombs deal a questionable amount of damage and even an autodrop can be fatal. this might be a bit too much.

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Any ship/class is OP if one player knows very well how to play said ship and he is against average WOWS players -> tomatoes.

 

And tomatoes with thousands of battles should think before posting nonsense....

And German BB secondary build is detrimental to its main battery -> which will always be the main source of dmg, except if someone goes yolo in a German BB...

 

GK 86K - FDG 61K - Bismarck 59K dmg in average dmg on EU server, good luck getting these numbers with secondaries, and this is just average dmg, you are at least expected to do better than that to carry your weight a bit.

 

 

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11 hours ago, Dampfboot said:

 

Just look at the targeting of Enterprise AP bombers with and without defensive AA fire. Got the issue?

 

You mean those DBs whose tightest possible drop circle with manual attacks and without any Defensive AA effects is still battleship sized?

 

Don't give them the entire lenght of your ship to drop on. As soon as you no longer give them the perfect head-on approach their damage potential drops substantially. RNG may still bite you in the arse off course, but overall it's the same dodhing procedure as with any other DB attack, turn out to force them to drop across your ship's width rather than length. It's either that of the CV has to spend precious seconds realigning his DBs to compensate for your evasive manouvers which means those DBs spend more time in your AA (and even with the tier IX HP module those Enterprise aircraft at effectively still only tier VIII'ish).

 

Or we could talk about how you apparently think that staying together to stack AA auras isn't an effective defense ...

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so, OP do you not think German BBs needed a bit of a counter as they cant be citadelled at close range i.e punished for doing stupid things like broadsiding. the enterprise is now there to stop German BBs that step out of line and make mistakes, like going out of cruiser AA protection.

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