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KaRmOnKeY

AP BOMBS overpowered(and cvs generally)

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pardon my french(and sry for angry topic)

 

but WTF are you thinking of with AB bombs, they are way to overpowered they normally do 30000 to 50000 damage in one go,, really,,

plz nerf the he.l out of that now..

and on another note the resent buffing of CV,, so we se them more and more, they are way to overpowered, if i meet a unicom player in Montana Moskva or what ever i can angle sail away do some basic defensive things, and stand a chance.. but a good cv player can do what he wants, when he wants.. 

and the class that really suffers for this are DDs, they get spotted all the time, our torps gets spotted way out,, the only thing we can do is sail away hide.. its becomming the old days again with overpowered CVs..

first off i dont even see there role in this game, its like mixing FPS game with Red Alert.. but i guess they will allways be here.. but please reduce there damage, they dominate too much..

yea i know "but you allso have one cv one your team,, bah 50 % chance he is the worse player and get murdered from the get go, or do the ill put all my planes around the blue line and ambush there cv.. taking 5 mins while the whole other team dies, and then finally fail at killing the other cv...

i know lots of ships have really good AA but guess what most dont..

 

hmmmppfff sry for angry topic but its REALLY starting to bug, and make me play less and less

 

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Sorry about that guys, I'm the cause for this thread. Hit his (completely out of position and no DFAA) Zao for 20k with AP DBs, then finished him off with TBs. Have screenshots, but I'm not sure if this would fall under naming and shaming.

Interestingly tho, my TBs did more work that game than my AP DBs (80k alpha + 40k flooding compared to "just" 80k alpha). In a T8-10 game. With an Enterprise. By all means you have no right to complain when your team decides to split in the worst way possible (really, you decided to go for all three caps on Islands of Ice. How did you expect that to work out?!), thus freely giving up your massive AA advantage and presenting yourselves to me on a silver platter.

 

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54 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

Sorry about that guys, I'm the cause for this thread. Hit his (completely out of position and no DFAA) Zao for 20k with AP DBs, then finished him off with TBs. Have screenshots, but I'm not sure if this would fall under naming and shaming.

Interestingly tho, my TBs did more work that game than my AP DBs (80k alpha + 40k flooding compared to "just" 80k alpha). In a T8-10 game. With an Enterprise. By all means you have no right to complain when your team decides to split in the worst way possible (really, you decided to go for all three caps on Islands of Ice. How did you expect that to work out?!), thus freely giving up your massive AA advantage and presenting yourselves to me on a silver platter.

 

 

When a single ship has the power to control movement of the whole enemy team, totally not OP.

 

AP bombs taking half the health of a cruiser with DFAA, great game design tovarish, not OP at all.

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3 minutes ago, avenger121 said:

When a single ship has the power to control movement of the whole enemy team, totally not OP.

 

I guess DDs are overpowered as well then?

 

3 minutes ago, avenger121 said:

AP bombs taking half the health of a cruiser with DFAA

 

57 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

Hit his (completely out of position and no DFAA) Zao for 20k with AP DBs

 

Read pls?

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4 minutes ago, avenger121 said:

 

When a single ship has the power to control movement of the whole enemy team, totally not OP.

 

AP bombs taking half the health of a cruiser with DFAA, great game design tovarish, not OP at all.

But when BBs oneshote cruiser it is fine and good play....ah those whiners

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57 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

Sorry about that guys, I'm the cause for this thread. Hit his (completely out of position and no DFAA) Zao for 20k with AP DBs, then finished him off with TBs. Have screenshots, but I'm not sure if this would fall under naming and shaming.

Interestingly tho, my TBs did more work that game than my AP DBs (80k alpha + 40k flooding compared to "just" 80k alpha). In a T8-10 game. With an Enterprise. By all means you have no right to complain when your team decides to split in the worst way possible (really, you decided to go for all three caps on Islands of Ice. How did you expect that to work out?!), thus freely giving up your massive AA advantage and presenting yourselves to me on a silver platter.

 

Considering you have 10% higher win rate in your CVs than any other ship type (and basically every CV apologist that posted on this forum), it's pretty safe to assume that CVs are really imbalanced.

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2 minutes ago, Lord_WC said:

Considering you have 10% higher win rate in your CVs than any other ship type (and basically every CV apologist that posted on this forum), it's pretty safe to assume that CVs are really imbalanced.

 

Because it is obviously my and every other CV player's fault that the average player cannot grasp the concept of the most basic teamplay.

Really, that's on the same level as calling torps overpowered because the average player does not WASD.

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It took way longer than I expected seeing this topic appear.

 

What I do understand about some posts here is how way imbalanced games are when one cv is great/unicum versus another one barely able to find his own feet. Had a lot of games recently with independence on my team & shokaku on the other, very unpleasant.

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9 minutes ago, Lord_WC said:

Considering you have 10% higher win rate in your CVs than any other ship type (and basically every CV apologist that posted on this forum), it's pretty safe to assume that CVs are really imbalanced.

 

Nononono, dont you dare saying such things. Is only coincidence tovarish, has no meaning.

 

 

13 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

 

I guess DDs are overpowered as well then?

 

Torp salvoes are really wide and huge, basically a huge wall, and they are so tight, you simply cant fit throught the gaps. Also taking a torpedo on the bow usually means the same amount of dmg as if a high tier CV facerolls you for 70k dmg.

 

6 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

 

Because it is obviously my and every other CV player's fault that the average player cannot grasp the concept of the most basic teamplay.

Really, that's on the same level as calling torps overpowered because the average player does not WASD.

 

Nonononono, statistics have no meaning, pls balance according to CV apologists, is gud for gaem tovarish. CVs very weak, pls buff. )))))))

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2 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

Because it is obviously my and every other CV player's fault that the average player cannot grasp the concept of the most basic teamplay.

Yes, group together in a blob. True, but one exception - if people do this cv will go for DDs, which are already f'd enough. Even if ppl don't blob, most sensible cv players still go for dds.

 

And DD can of course join a blob/stay close to strong AA ship, but in domination this generates auto-loss since non-dds prefer to stay +- 15 km away from caps, and especially (see previous post) if the other cv is of said sensible kind and yours isn't. This is in essence my main grievance with cvs (imbalance and yet another anti-DD tool) but that's not really your or any other CVs fault tbh.

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12 minutes ago, PzychoPanzer said:

Yes, group together in a blob

 

A group of 2-4 capital ships is now a blob. Okay.

There is this weird misconception that you need an entire team to deny a CV any sort of damage. That may be true in low tiers (which WG fixed so well by doing nothing about it but removing alt attacks instead *smh*) but is a ridiculous assumption beyond that.

Heck, in high tiers single ships can deny vast amounts of air space. I'm largely fine with that, really. It's why they're in the game after all. Is it a CVs fault tho that these ships happen to be rather rare due to BB overpopulation?

 

A DD only needs to stay away from a cap if his entire team decides to stay away from a cap. That may not be his fault but hey, it's a team game. Just because you yourself did everything right doesn't necessarily mean you deserve to win.

CVs were always the primary anti-DD tool. It's with their disappearance that things such as radar and RPF appeared, which would obviously cause hilarious problems if CV numbers ever recovered.

 

13 minutes ago, avenger121 said:

Torp salvoes are really wide and huge, basically a huge wall

 

Which of course doesn't influence the movement of the entire enemy team at all tovarish! Stronk boat captains all know that torpedoes are capitalist pig weapons with no damage potential, never worth to be avoided! Here, have some more vodka!

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While AP bombs might be worth a discussion, i seriously don´t see a point about "cry,cry, CVs OP,cry, cry". And i am the last person you can call a CV fanboy, considering my poot tier 4 CV performance and at least my US ships mostly fitted completly AAA.

No.

Thing is: playerbase is completly spoiled. Spoiled by the RNG that saves our poor ships on a frequent basis before annihilation by skill.

A skilled DD captain laid down a rather good aimed torpedo salvo for your straight ahead sailing BB? RNG will allow for exactly that one gap you need to turn into those torps, so the damage is avoided or minor. A skilled BB captain aimed a perfect salvo for your broadside tanking BB/cruiser? Don´t worry, RNG will balance it out, spreading the shells all across the map, preventing the well playing and skilled gunner from his well deserved reward, saving your broadside 4 out of 5 times, just because numbers decide.

CVs are the one and only class left in this game, where skill > rng. They are powerfull, and AP bombs might be a little be too much, but the standard CV is for sure not OP. It´s the skill of the CV player and the lack of it on it´s target, what makes CV appear OP...

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Just now, El2aZeR said:

Which of course doesn't influence the movement of the enemy team at all tovarish! Here, have some more vodka!

 

Yeah turning bow on for 20-30s makes you hump the blue line together with the idiots, which is the best way to play as you are constantly suggesting.

 

 

CVs are long overdue for some huge nerfs, dmg output needs to be halfed at least, if that is even enough to make them balanced.

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12 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

A group of 2-4 capital ships is now a blob. Okay.

 

Well, that is what I meant. No native English speaker here, I thought "blob" was just somewhat synonym of "concentrated group". Didn't mean entire team for sure... Not really noble to take on someone's limited knowledge of a foreign language.

 

12 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

A DD only needs to stay away from a cap if his entire team decides to stay away from a cap. That may not be his fault but hey, it's a team game. Just because you yourself did everything right doesn't necessarily mean you deserve to win.

And that is the main problem with carriers. They can play their solo game, and can indeed be countered by the other team as a whole. But if I as a dd can't convince them, I am screwed. That's a problem a lot of ppl (e.g. in this thread) have, cvs have too much influence.

 

Quite unfair that I as a dd have to win the lottery (have a little group of brave capital ships willing to go to/near a cap) with my team to counter a cv while they themselves are NOT (or at least way less) dependent on their team. So your "it's a team game", sure, but not for everyone.

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18 minutes ago, avenger121 said:

Yeah turning bow on for 20-30s makes you hump the blue line together with the idiots

 

And suddenly you get nuked by half the enemy team because you presented your broadside by evading torps. Alternatively you can get nuked by torps and die by keeping yourself angled to the enemy.

Without CVs you either rely on your DDs, radar cruisers (which smart DDs will tend to avoid) or you turn and run away to your other teammates, though that also may not save you. I see no scenario in which you are able to outcarry a DD of high level play in any other ship class barring external factors.

Now, with CVs you either rely on your own CV or AA ships to deny enemy strikes. Or you run away to your other teammates, which though may also not save you. See the parallels?

 

Since you are so adamant on having every class have the same amount of potential influence, isn't it hypocritical of you to say that you want CVs nerfed, yet DDs buffed?

 

13 minutes ago, PzychoPanzer said:

And that is the main problem with carriers. They can play their solo game, and can indeed be countered by the other team as a whole.

 

The thing is that CVs never play a solo game. You still need your own team to either exploit the openings you give them or to have them give you openings. You still need them to take caps, spam down the AA of other ships, etc. etc. etc.

There are vast limitations CVs have to deal with, just because some people refuse to acknowledge them doesn't make them go away.

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6 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

 

The thing is that CVs never play a solo game. You still need your own team to either exploit the openings you give them or to have them give you openings. You still need them to take caps, spam down the AA of other ships, etc. etc. etc.

There are vast limitations CVs have to deal with, just because some people refuse to acknowledge them doesn't make them go away.

If just speaking about winning versus losing the game, sure you are right, and I do acknowledge cv is just as dependent there. Damage wise however you will still do fine, even if your complete team sails towards the border.

 

For a DD that, again, is less true. Maybe if there are like 4/5 dds, so the enemy cv can't spot them all. However, given e.g. there are two, against you, I'm quite sure you would keep us permaspotted, giving the same result as just returning to port. And also luckily most of your CV colleagues are as braindead as high tier bbs... (I had an independence on my team today, who had 20% wr in that thing...)

 

35 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

CVs were always the primary anti-DD tool.

This, by the way, shouldn't be. Radarboats are primary anti-DD, gunboats are primary anti-DD, hydro is primary anti-DD, etc. Enough already.

Here I was thinking it was battleships that were made obsolete by carriers.

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11 minutes ago, PzychoPanzer said:

Damage wise however you will still do fine, even if your complete team sails towards the border.

 

That's largely true for cruisers and especially BBs as well, not just CVs.

Been advocating for quite a while that income for damage should be nerfed and income for team based actions (spotting, tanking, smoking, etc.) should be increased or rewarded in the first place. That ofc includes changing the income earned by CVs.

 

11 minutes ago, PzychoPanzer said:

This, by the way, shouldn't be. Radarboats are primary anti-DD, gunboats are primary anti-DD, hydro is primary anti-DD, etc. Enough already.

 

The concept of CVs countering DDs predates both radar and hydro. It's their introduction that screwed up balance, not the other way around. Now, you can either attempt to shift the focus of CVs on something else, which can be done to an extent but never so much that CVs would never be the primary anti-DD tool, or you could just nerf/remove the things that never had a place in the game to begin with. Personally I'm in favor of the latter, as it is an actual solution instead of a shoddy patch job.

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23 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

 

And suddenly you get nuked by half the enemy team because you presented your broadside by evading torps. Alternatively you can get nuked by torps and die by keeping yourself angled to the enemy.

Without CVs you either rely on your DDs, radar cruisers (which smart DDs will tend to avoid) or you turn and run away to your other teammates, though that also may not save you. I see no scenario in which you are able to outcarry a DD of high level play in any other ship class barring external factors.

Now, with CVs you either rely on your own CV or AA ships to deny enemy strikes. Or you run away to your other teammates, which though may also not save you. See the parallels?

 

Since you are so adamant on having every class have the same amount of potential influence, isn't it hypocritical of you to say that you want CVs nerfed, yet DDs buffed?

 

Ever since you came to the belief that DDs are my fav class you are arguing that CVs are not OP and cant be nerfed because then DDs would become OP. The nerf DDs too, I dont fuckín care, unlike CV apologists I dont need a single class to be brokenly OP to have fun in WoWs.

 

 

AP bombs only do overpenetrations against cruisers, hurr durr. I remember when certain ppl constantly repeated this sentence when reasonable ppl pointed out how broken AP bombs are, and guess what, it was wrong. Just like CVs will suddenly attack the braindead afk baBBies at the blue line, and not the ships that actually fight for the caps. AP bombs will magically solve all meta problems. ))))  CVs are weak and unplayable, pls buff. ))))

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1 minute ago, avenger121 said:

Ever since you came to the belief that DDs are my fav class you are arguing that CVs are not OP and cant be nerfed because then DDs would become OP. The nerf DDs too, I dont fuckín care, unlike CV apologists I dont need a single class to be brokenly OP to have fun in WoWs.

 

And eventually you will murder the game in a constant stream of buffs and nerfs by clinging on your inherently flawed belief to have the same amount of potential influence. Actual balance, which btw can be achieved on the basis that this is a TEAM game, on the other hand will forever be hilariously out of reach for you.

I'm actually just using DDs as an example as they are clearly inherently more influential than BBs or cruisers. You're giving yourself too much credit.

 

4 minutes ago, avenger121 said:

I remember when certain ppl constantly repeated this sentence when reasonable ppl pointed out how broken AP bombs are, and guess what, it was wrong.

 

Guess who one of those people was? AP bombs solve none of the inherent problems with both CVs and AA. But to call them overpowered like OP on the basis that his team should have stood even a slim chance on winning the match when they presented themselves to me and my team on a silver platter is hilarious at best.

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2 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

 

And eventually you will murder the game in a constant stream of buffs and nerfs by clinging on your inherently flawed belief to have the same amount of potential influence. Actual balance, which btw can be achieved on the basis that this is a TEAM game, on the other hand will forever be hilariously out of reach for you.

I'm actually just using DDs as an example as they are clearly inherently more influential than BBs or cruisers. You're giving yourself too much credit.

 

Ahh the good ol´ "perfect balance cant be achieved, therefore CVs being double as powerful is great balance, just play as team" argument. Never ceases to amaze me.

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1 minute ago, avenger121 said:

Ahh the good ol´ "perfect balance cant be achieved, therefore CVs being double as powerful is great balance, just play as team" argument.

 

6 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

Actual balance, which btw can be achieved on the basis that this is a TEAM game, on the other hand will forever be hilariously out of reach for you.

 

Read pls?

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Just now, El2aZeR said:

Read pls?

 

You should do that.

 

Teamplay or not, doesnt change the fact that CVs are overly powerful. Guess why CVs are limited to 1 even in competitive where you have coordinated teams, unlike in ranoms.

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Because multiple CVs disrupt a well balanced system, as proven by the time when such a limit did not exist?

And numbers of other classes and even nations are also restricted since some are simply more influential than others. I don't see you having a problem with that, though.

On the other hand a single CV has perfectly viable and widely available counters, making them balanced. Whether or not people actually use them is not a problem with CVs anymore. If anything the competitive WoWs scene proves that CVs are hilariously weak when faced with same tier coordinated opposition, frequently sacrificing massive amounts of planes for even just a sliver of spotting information and thus potential influence on a match (and that's fine, as it is one of their counters). So much in fact that afaik there are talks to introduce T9 CVs into competitive T8 instead.

 

Is that a hole in your foot? Pretty sure you just shot yourself.

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20 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

If anything the competitive WoWs scene proves that CVs are hilariously weak when faced with same tier coordinated opposition

Sure there is coordination in the teams in competitive scene that de facto relegates cv to spotter, but you forget to mention the specific ships that are taken in competitive.

 

Such as AA specced north cals, the obligatory Kutuzovs (+ chapayev) and the dds (akizuki & benson) who are most likely also AA specced, not to mention the ubersmoke meta. Amagi seems the least AA able ship that gets taken out, but most of them are more than decent in that regard.

 

(edit: almost forgot: being paired with a skilled carrier on the opposite team is also quite different from standard random of course...)

 

Most ships in random are not fully AA specced, let alone have 19 point captains on them.

 

Though I would be quite curious to see what happens when it would be played with t9 carriers. (which, let's be frank, is just a euphemism to say double taiho of course)

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