Just Citadelled a Montana with Neptune, But How?

[FoxtrotOscar_]

Okay, I've never citadelled a battleship with my Neptune before, or any 152mm gun for that matter. Especially at +15km range, especially a tier 10 BB. Just played a match with my Neptune and while moving up a flank I took some pot shots at a Montana ~16km away, behind a mountain.

He was turning away so I guess by the time my shells hit him he was angled away from me. First salvo lands for ~2k, second salvo lands for one citadel and third salvo lands for ~4k, for a total of 10k dmg. 4th salvo missed and I stopped shooting after that because I was in shock of what I just saw. I'm not an expert on Montana and it's armor layout so I'd be really glad if someone could explain to me what just happened there. I recorded it so you can watch the video here.

How did a 152mm shell from a Neptune (fired like a mortar) citadel a Montana at that range? I'm confused, could use some explaining.

 

 

EDIT: Replay attached. 

 

20170703_125255_PBSC109-Neptune_44_Path_warrior.wowsreplays

[G01ngToxicCommand0]

15 minutes ago, The_ELiT3 said:

Okay, I've never citadelled a battleship with my Neptune before, or any 152mm gun for that matter. Especially at +15km range, especially a tier 10 BB. Just played a match with my Neptune and while moving up a flank I took some pot shots at a Montana ~16km away, behind a mountain.

He was turning away so I guess by the time my shells hit him he was angled away from me. First salvo lands for ~2k, second salvo lands for one citadel and third salvo lands for ~4k, for a total of 10k dmg. 4th salvo missed and I stopped shooting after that because I was in shock of what I just saw. I'm not an expert on Montana and it's armor layout so I'd be really glad if someone could explain to me what just happened there. I recorded it so you can watch the video here.

How did a 152mm shell from a Neptune (fired like a mortar) citadel a Montana at that range? I'm confused, could use some explaining.

 

It should not be possible given the armour layout and thickness of the Montana and the performance of the 6" SAP. I would report it as a bug to WG.

[StuntMan0369]

That's.... rather curious. Like @atomskytten said, the armour on Montana is pretty solid that 6" AP fire especially at that range shouldn't really trouble her...

 

If you have the replay file of that game, we could get a much more accurate look at exactly where the shell landed, and would very much help figure out where this armour weak-zone is (whether it's intentional or bug).

[FoxtrotOscar_]

3 minutes ago, StuntMan0369 said:

That's.... rather curious. Like @atomskytten said, the armour on Montana is pretty solid that 6" AP fire especially at that range shouldn't really trouble her...

 

If you have the replay file of that game, we could get a much more accurate look at exactly where the shell landed, and would very much help figure out where this armour weak-zone is (whether it's intentional or bug).

 

Yeah, It really got me surprised there, had to double check everything, including my eyes. Battle's replay is attached to this post and I'll also attach it to OP for easier access for others. 

 

On a side note, I just thought maybe I hit something else beside Montana. Maybe a cruiser or something that was close to it and unspotted got hit blindly. But after a closer look at the video and the whole replay I noticed that, at the very moment that I shoot at, and hit Montana a friendly DD is very close to him. So close that he would have spotted anything close to him, if there was any. So I'm 100% sure that I hit and Citadelled Montana. 

20170703_125255_PBSC109-Neptune_44_Path_warrior.wowsreplays

[KaraMon]

So there are 2 options to consider

 

1. Plunging fire trough deck , we shoudl check armor values and penetration values of Neptune shells at this range

2. You hit barbette and shell exploded inside  = citadel hit

 

Second is most possible , that is for example the way how Moskva can citadel german BB even when they are bow on towards it . In case of BB shooting they have to much penetration and hiting barbette result in overpens but when you have enough pen but not too much you get citadels there

[El2aZeR]

35 minutes ago, KaraMon said:

Plunging fire trough deck , we shoudl check armor values and penetration values of Neptune shells at this range

 

I don't think 16km is enough for Neptune shells to overcome autobounce. Even if, the shells shouldn't be able to penetrate Monty's overall deck armor.

 

35 minutes ago, KaraMon said:

You hit barbette and shell exploded inside  = citadel hit

 

Neptune's guns have less than 100mm penetration at 16km range. Even at point blank they only have about 325mm penetration. That's insufficient to penetrate the belt, much less the barbette on Monty either way.

 

So either this is a visual bug or Monty has some weird weak spot somewhere.

[FoxtrotOscar_]

38 minutes ago, KaraMon said:

 

2. You hit barbette and shell exploded inside  = citadel hit

 

Second is most possible , that is for example the way how Moskva can citadel german BB even when they are bow on towards it . In case of BB shooting they have to much penetration and hiting barbette result in overpens but when you have enough pen but not too much you get citadels there

 

In the case of barbette, taking the Neptune's shell velocity and mortar-like landing (i.e the angle at which the shell hit's the barbette), wouldn't the shell auto-bounce off the barbette? 

Another point to consider is Neptune shell's penetration power, does it have enough power to go through Montana's barbette?

 

EDIT: Never mind, the post above (posted at the same time as mine)answered both my questions.

[deadly_if_swallowed]

I had some similar curiosities with my light cruisers as well.

My lucky guess on this case: The shell made a perfectly smooth landing into one of Montana's gun barrels, travelled through the open breech during the loading process, kicked aside the 406mm shell, entered the shell elevator upside down and detonated through the shock of the elevator hitting the ground floor :>

[Exocet6951]

I'll answer that riddle with the same one that puzzled two Bismarcks whom I shot in the same place last game at the same range and angle with monumentally different results: the servers suck and just do things at random sometimes.

6" AP at max range hitting that place? Meh, citpen I guess.
USN 8" AP hitting a Bismarck stern? Meh, all shatter 2 salvoes in a row.
USN 8" AP hitting the very same spot in the very same conditions on a Bismarck? All penetrate and deal 10k damage 3 salvoes in a row.
Plunging Warspite shell hitting a Myoko midship at the waterline? Meh, overpen.
Dunkek hitting a broadside Kuma at very close range in the bow ? Triple citpen. 

 

 

There were the very same problems in CBT, and now they're rearing their ugly heads again.
 

[FoxtrotOscar_]

Okay guys, I did a bit of "investigation" and found some interesting results. The details may be a bit of overkill but I guess they are necessary. 

For a better and more exact understanding of what happens to second salvo, watch this video before going through the texts and screenshots bellow. This video is very important in defining the fates of the shells that may or may not have caused the citadel.

 

So let's get to it:

Neptune fired 4 salvos toward Montana. The first three salvos hit some shells and the fourth missed completely. First, third and fourth salvos do not matter though because the citadel happens in the second salvo. Now let's take a look at a few pictures to see what happened with second salvo.

 

This is the moment when the second salvo fired by Neptune reaches and hits Montana. Note that all twelve shells fired by Neptune are present. (3x4 152mm)

 

 

This screenshot shows the result of first salvo fired by Neptune. Two normal pens, seven shatters and obviously 3 misses.

 

This is the result of second salvo fired by Neptune. If you take results of first salvo into account too, it means the second salvo managed 1 citadel, 1 shatter, 1 bounce and obviously 9 misses.

 

A closer look at second salvo. Nine shells have missed Montana (Red) and three shells have hit Montana (Green). From this angle it seems that of the shells that hit, one hits Montana's deck armor just behind the third turret (Green 1). Note that it may seem like Green1 ends at the roof of third turret but if you look closely in the video (at 1:00 mark) and the screenshot bellow (to some degree) it is clear this is not the case and Green1 actually flies past third turret and hits the deck behind it. another hits Montana's belt bellow the waterline (Green 2), and the other hits the edge of Montana's deck between second and third turrets (Green 3).

 

Another angle which confirms what was observed above. A hit on deck just behind third turret (1). Note that if you take a closer look at lower back of turret where there is a lot of smoke you can see a little bit of white shell trail, that I guess confirms Green1 actually passed right by third turret and hits the deck behind it. It is also clear in the video (at 1:00 mark) that Green1 hits deck area behind third turret), a hit on belt bellow the waterline (2), and a hit on the edge of deck between third and second turrets (3).

 

 

And here is the result of second salvo after hits with UI turned on. It confirms two important things. Firstly, 1 citadel, 1 shatter, 1 bounce and 9 misses is in fact true for the second salvo. Secondly, is that the damage number pops up close to hits number 1 and number 2. If where the shell hits and where the damage pops up are tied together, then we can conclude that the citadel is either caused by hit number 1 or hit number 2 (see images above) and if where hit happens and where damage pops up have nothing to do with each other, we will have a harder time determining which hit results in citadel.

 

Okay, now that we established the facts lets get into conclusion. We got three hits, and three results to assign to hits.

 

The Hits:

Hit Number 1: On the deck armor just behind Montana's third turret.

Hit Number 2: On the belt armor bellow the waterline.

Hit Number 3: On the edge of deck armor between Montana's second and third turrets.

 

The Results: 

Result Number 1: Citadel

Result Number 2: Shatter

Result Number 3: Bounce

 

And that's it. I won't try and assign The Hits to The Results since I don't think I have enough knowledge of game's ballistic and shell mechanics. But what are your thoughts? Do you think the 3 Hit\3 Result conclusion is right? If it's right, then which Result belongs to which Hit?

[Ferry_25]

Hmm. Citadels are in my experience synonymous to the RN cruiser line. Granted I don't always hit those ships. But when I do it's a guaranteed citadel. I'm even quite amazed if it's not a 1 shot. I genuinely can't remember receiving a citadel from those boats ever. My best guess is you exactly sacrificed the right virgin, 25 goats, 12 sheeps, 8 cows, 10 horses and 3 camels to RNG-us OP. Well done for that matter!

[El2aZeR]

1 hour ago, The_ELiT3 said:

But what are your thoughts? Do you think the 3 Hit\3 Result conclusion is right? If it's right, then which Result belongs to which Hit?

 

Honestly, none of these hits seem to be able to cause citadels. Did the Monty turn towards the Neptune, thus causing her side to rise out of the water? This may allow the hit below the waterline to bypass the main armor belt, penetrate the torp bulge then penetrate the lower citadel torp bulkhead, which is the best I can come up with.

That's still 135mm armor total and should've stopped a Neptune shell at this range, though.

[RUSSIANBlAS]

This is the sort of thing someone should send to WG staff, they might get you an answer of it's a bug or something that is intentional if very lucky.

 

You might wait a few weeks for a reply however 

[FoxtrotOscar_]

7 hours ago, El2aZeR said:

 

 Did the Monty turn towards the Neptune, thus causing her side to rise out of the water? 

 

I don't think he did. If you look at the last screen shot with UI turned on you can see that Montana is slightly angled away from Neptune.

 

By the way, after taking a closer look at Montana's armor layout and thickness I'm more inclined to believe this is just a weird bug. I'm not sure a 152mm shell from Neptune landing from that angle on Montana's deck and belt would ever have enough penetration to go through them, let alone reach the citadel and damage it. 

I sent a ticket to WG too but as said above, I guess we are going to have to wait a while for a solid answer. 

[RUSSIANBlAS]

4 hours ago, The_ELiT3 said:

 

I don't think he did. If you look at the last screen shot with UI turned on you can see that Montana is slightly angled away from Neptune.

 

By the way, after taking a closer look at Montana's armor layout and thickness I'm more inclined to believe this is just a weird bug. I'm not sure a 152mm shell from Neptune landing from that angle on Montana's deck and belt would ever have enough penetration to go through them, let alone reach the citadel and damage it. 

I sent a ticket to WG too but as said above, I guess we are going to have to wait a while for a solid answer. 

Don't take no for an answer,I recall some WoT player asking a game mechanics question and eventually getting a decent reply after resending it multiple times with amendments.

 

 

[0ddys]

Very weird indeed.

A penetration of the torpedobulge would only result in a penetration, because of the short fuse timer of RN CL AP. What is even more curiuos, is the damage of the one damaging shell (4.256). This value meens the shell not only scored a citadelle, but must also caused a penetration, since 4.256 damage is 3.200 (cit) + 3.200 x 0,33 (pen).

Normally the damage number pop up at the place they where scored at. Since they poped up at the end of the ship shell 3 is the most likely one that caused the damage but how the shell did this is (very, very) strange and shouldn't be possible. To score such a hit the shell must be detonated the moment it actually hit the 19mm citadelleroof, where the shell couldn't get to without bypassing an amorlayer untouched (aka it somehow bypassed the main armordeck). For angled 32mm+19mm the shell would have enough penetrationpower.

This said for me it looks like a bug and should be reported.

[Namolis]

As far as I can tell, the only way a shell with <100mm of penetration could make it into the citadel of a Montana is if it somehow passed up, under the main armor belt and above the citadel torpedo belt. The armor viewer in game won't let me see how thick that section is, but it was unarmored in rl, so it should be quite thin. Afaik, the game lets a shell bounce around up to 6 times inside a ship - enough for strange things to happen - though I still find it hard to reconcile that with a short shell fuse time.

That, or a bug. As 0ddys points out, the damage value seems to indicate a "dobule cit", something I do score every now and then: the shell gets counted twice with two of either overpen, pen or cit. pen. (Last time it happened was Sunday, where a single shell from my Yama hit a hapless Des Moines (who would have otherwise killed me) through the nose and did >18k damage to kill him. It could be as straightforward as the fuse running out the exact same moment as it impacted the citadel armor, causing some of the same funky business as the once famous "citadel roof bug" where they solved it by adding a layer of "faux" armor just outside the actual citadel so the citadel wouldn't actually be touched by a shell bouncing around (and also runied the through-water pens for about a week, making it almost impossible to citadel broadsiding cruisers in a battleship).

[RUSSIANBlAS]

I've seen a Leander get a Citadel under the turrets of a Tirpitz. Again probably just a freak shot...

[FoxtrotOscar_]

If we go by the in game armor viewer, a shell from Neptune should have no way in hell to penetrate a Montana's deck or belt from ~16km, let alone reach the citadel, pen it and do damage to it too. There must be a bug somewhere in game's damage registry, ballistics\penetration calculation and Montana's armor model causing this.

[gekkehenkie50]

I have a new theory on this rogue citadel: Sorry for stealing your photo btw The_Elit3

 

I also believe the citadel was scored on Shell #1; I believe its shell path was as follows:

The shells penetrates the deck armour of Montana, which is 38mm thick. Then it bounces off the inside of the armoured belt which is 409mm.

Taking a peek at the armour scheme of Montana, I noticed that the barbette armour is 541mm thick. Except BEHIND the armoured belt!

As seen here, the barbette armour is 51mm at this level. My theory is that the shell penetrated the armoured deck, bounced off the armoured belt, hitting the barbette at a nice flat angle, penetrating it, thus resulting in a citadel hit. In this scenario, the shell does not need to penetrate the citadel deck AND the floor of the armoured belt. Although I am not sure if the armoured belt has an armoured floor between it and the citadel deck.

That is what I believed happened

[0ddys]

There is still the mainamordeck which the ingame armorviewer don't show (the old citadelleroof) with 152mm. Besides that the shell would have bounced from the deck even at 16km as the angle of fall is still to low which would result in an autobounce even with buffed bounceangles.

[gekkehenkie50]

19 hours ago, 0ddys said:

There is still the mainamordeck which the ingame armorviewer don't show (the old citadelleroof) with 152mm. Besides that the shell would have bounced from the deck even at 16km as the angle of fall is still to low which would result in an autobounce even with buffed bounceangles.

Afaik. The auto-bounce only occures with a 100% chance at 60 degrees. Now, I did not take a geometric triangle and measure the shells impact angle (not even sure the game's textures are that precise), but as far as I can see, the shell impact was less than 60 degrees, which means that there was a chance, albeit a tiny one, for the shell to penetrate the deck.

Source: Ichase's penetration video

As for the main armour deck. That I cannot explain, my view was based solely off what I could see in the armour view. Maybe when they lowered the citadel they took the main armour deck down with it?

[FoxtrotOscar_]

Support says they have forwarded the issue to QA and specialists and are awaiting their answer. Let's hope they actually share the reason once they figure it out and not just secret-fix it if it is actually a bug. 

[Darth_Glorious]

The whole upper belt of Montana has only 38 mm armour...

[0ddys]

Thats why in my opinion a penetration of the upper belt makes more sense since there we can be pretty sure that it wouldn't have bounced. Sadly I can't find any Information about the angle of fall of Neptune/Minotaurs guns. Which meens it could possibly be a very lucky Penetration of the deck, but even then the shell somehow bypassed atleast one layer or armor to get to the citadelle.

Okay just checked the Information for the Edinburgh guns. She would have had an angle of fall of a bit more then 30° at 16km but her deckpenetration even at 20km would only be 51mm. At 16km I think it would be less then 40mm (Des Moines has 51mm at 16,8km). The Neptune shell has more deckepentration (slower and heavier), but I don't think enough to punch through 38mm deckarmor @ 30,1°, since this would require about 76mm penetration. A penetration of the upper belt on the other hand would be possible since Neptune has around 100mm pen at these distance. But then she wouldn't have enough pen to get trough the 19mm citadelleroof, even if the shell somehow bypassed the mainarmordeck.

This still is an very intressting case and I'm tuned for WG answer.