Japanese cruiser torpedoes - Dire need of rebalance.

[Kazomir]

Hello. 

 

I am creating this topic to speak of japanese torpedoes' balance and usability.

 

In the war, the japanese were famed to have some of the biggest, fastest, longest in terms of range and most stealthy torpedoes in all of the world.

 

So good were they in fact that they sunk even japanese ships because they were unworthy of bearing their awesomeness.

 

This was reflected in beta by giving the japs the best torps available. 

 

Now though, oh lord.. power creep and some healthy nerfs have demolished that status. 

 

Mostly im not speaking about DDs though, but cruisers. 

 

Jap cruisers' gimmick was that they carried some mean torps nevermind the awkward arcs. Yet, with introduction of some new lines of cruisers, both french and british torps are longer ranged and more usable because of the arcs. Heck even duca has 12 km torps.

 

I propose for the jap cruisers to receive a different set of torps in comparison to their DDs. (Who have the stealth to use their torps)

Change the setting of the torps to a slower one, then buff the range and decrease the visibility. Higher tier japanese cruisers should have about 15 km range slow torps for area denial. This way you have a role of area denial ( because running away and causing fires really does not help your team greatly in terms of damn utility, and I hate jao cruisers were reduced to this) and a better way to counter puffs of smoke that fire special AP at you. (Im looking at you british cruiser) If this seems too OP we can nerf the reload.

 

That way you have a new role and not that much fear of being deleted once you release fish in the water..

[Nechrom]

I don't have much issues with IJN cruiser torpedoes, but I do think that the IJN cruisers themselves are soon looking to need some sort of buff due to power creep.

That could definitely come as a buff to their torpedoes.

 

First on the list should obviously be mid-high tier KM cruisers like the Hipper, but after that I think the IJN should get their turn.

[invicta2012]

Two things, really: Torp ranges were higher in the earlier days of the game and the ability to launch lots of long range torps isn't conducive to a fun game experience. You just end up with torp walls, pot shots and everyone hiding behind rocks.

 

RN cruisers have good torps but are fragile and need smoke to survive; the Duca has long range torps but she's balanced because they are slow, fixed triples, and go as far as her guns do (and that's a real pain, you have to be 3-4k from the secondaries of things like Bismarck and Tirpitz before you can fire your main battery....). 

 

In any case, Japanese LL torpedoes had one major problem - if the ship was hit, the torpedoes tended to detonate, just like a magazine explosion. So the trade off for a 15k range would be a hugely increased risk of Detonation. Overall I think no-one wants more torp pot shots and random one-shot deaths, so it's OK as it is. 

 

As for the IJN line - Furutaka is much better than it was, now it has a sensible gun configuration and if Aoba is annoying... most Tier VI cruisers are, tbh. Get to Tier VII and the fun begins.

 

[Deckeru_Maiku]

9 minutes ago, invicta2012 said:

As for the IJN line - Furutaka is much better than it was, now it has a sensible gun configuration and if Aoba is annoying... most Tier VI cruisers are, tbh. Get to Tier VII and the fun begins ends.

 

Sorry, had to correct that statement. For me, T VII is where the game starts being way less fun than in lower tiers, And the "new" Furry Taco is awesome!

[Kazomir]

20 minutes ago, invicta2012 said:

Two things, really: Torp ranges were higher in the earlier days of the game and the ability to launch lots of long range torps isn't conducive to a fun game experience. You just end up with torp walls, pot shots and everyone hiding behind rocks.

 

RN cruisers have good torps but are fragile and need smoke to survive; the Duca has long range torps but she's balanced because they are slow, fixed triples, and go as far as her guns do (and that's a real pain, you have to be 3-4k from the secondaries of things like Bismarck and Tirpitz before you can fire your main battery....). 

 

In any case, Japanese LL torpedoes had one major problem - if the ship was hit, the torpedoes tended to detonate, just like a magazine explosion. So the trade off for a 15k range would be a hugely increased risk of Detonation. Overall I think no-one wants more torp pot shots and random one-shot deaths, so it's OK as it is. 

 

As for the IJN line - Furutaka is much better than it was, now it has a sensible gun configuration and if Aoba is annoying... most Tier VI cruisers are, tbh. Get to Tier VII and the fun begins.

 

 

I was more talking about higher tiers there. Mid tier IJN cruisers are fine, up to tier 7 and 8 where they are too fragile for heavy cruisers. 9 and 10 are fine. 

 

The infamaus torp soup was caused by numerous shimas (sometimes more than 3) spamming 20km torps which was not fun indeed. Though if we nerf IJN Cruiser reload but give them more range so they do not instantly die when they turn for a launch will give them back their torpedo flavour, which they have lost. 

 

Lets not speak of ways to counter torps, since beta lot more ships carry sonars and dual fighter planes or vigilance for torps to be a huge nuisance. 

[Affeks]

Same, I was hoping the IJN cruiser flavor would be torps, not mindless HE spamming. 

 

Right now IJN cruiser torps are nothing more than a gimmick. Their insanely terrible arcs coupled with mediocre range limits their use to surprise attacks from behind islands or if someone lends you a smoke to turn and torp from.. in truth though using the torps against any target in the open is utter suicide. personally 15km torps is a bit of an overkill, but giving the higher tier cruisers access to 12km torps would help solve some of the issues with IJN torps.

[indycar]

15 minutes ago, Kazomir said:

The infamaus torp soup was caused by numerous shimas (sometimes more than 3) spamming 20km torps which was not fun indeed. Though if we nerf IJN Cruiser reload but give them more range so they do not instantly die when they turn for a launch will give them back their torpedo flavour, which they have lost.

and all the cruisers who had 20km torps... senjo, ibuki cant remember if any other

[invicta2012]

 For me, T VII is where the game starts being way less fun than in lower tiers

 

I'm not sure about that. Tier VII - for cruisers, anyway - has some great ships. Myoko, Belfast, Yorck all seem good fun, and I think they've even buffed Pensacola so it doesn't explode *quite* as much as it did. VI is agonising, with all those fragile Washington treaty ships being thrown into the Bismarck grinder...

[Ubertron_X]

You know that KM has to use 6km torps up to tier X? If I would amend torps for cruisers I would start looking there...

[Exocet6951]

24 minutes ago, Ubertron_X said:

You know that KM has to use 6km torps up to tier X? If I would amend torps for cruisers I would start looking there...

KM cruisers also have much better angles and the troll armor necessary to use the 6km torps without imploding at the first salvo.

[waxx25]

I agree with OP on this. It would be a nice addition to gameplay.

[Fat_Maniac]

8 hours ago, invicta2012 said:

 For me, T VII is where the game starts being way less fun than in lower tiers

 

I'm not sure about that. Tier VII - for cruisers, anyway - has some great ships. Myoko, Belfast, Yorck all seem good fun, and I think they've even buffed Pensacola so it doesn't explode *quite* as much as it did. VI is agonising, with all those fragile Washington treaty ships being thrown into the Bismarck grinder...

Oh god. I thought T5 was hard, looks like I'm gonna take even more pain in T6. So is T7 kind of a 'sweet spot' to aim for? In cruisers that is.

[dCK_Ad_Hominem]

People still get it wrong. The Myoko is t VIII, not T VII 

[Exocet6951]

14 minutes ago, dCK_Ad_Hominem said:

People still get it wrong. The Myoko is t VIII, not T VII 

AFT tier 7 155 Mogami, you are sorely missed.

RIP in pepperino

[mikelight1805]

I think a slight rebalance regarding Torp range and concealment would be ok if it wasn't too radical. Maybe an extra couple of KM range, coupled with a small concealment buff. I think the change should be moderate.

[dasCKD]

8 hours ago, Exocet6951 said:

KM cruisers also have much better angles and the troll armor necessary to use the 6km torps without imploding at the first salvo.

I agree, the German cruisers should be given their destroyer's torpedoes. :P

[JapLance]

Hmmm, French cruiser torps are 9Kms, and British 8-10 Kms. Japanese torps from Furutaka to Ibuki have 10Kms range. Only Zao's 8Kms torpedoes are shorter-ranged. Considering that they have removed its stealth fire capabilities, I think they should give it back the 10Km range.

 

But that's all.

[AkosJaccik]

Since the game is slowly becoming World of Gimmick anyway, here is yet another idea:
The IJN not only used advanced propulsion (with the above mentioned "tiny" drawback), but also had in the early days they probably had the best control systems too. Aerial torpedoes were especially interesting for me not only because the wooden stabilizer surfaces but also because of the usage of gyrocompass. But as for cruisers:

How about negating the torpedo angles by implementing gyro angles?

I'll admit, while I thrown this in as an idea, I am somewhat reluctant, as I do not yet see the solution to the potential problem of spamming torps from behind islands. But who knows, considering torp reload time and an angry allied team, this might be less of a problem than it first seems. Anyway, Aoba could really use this, the rest I'm not certain about, but probably could be fine-tuned.

[Exocet6951]

6 minutes ago, AkosJaccik said:

Since the game is slowly becoming World of Gimmick anyway, here is yet another idea:
The IJN not only used advanced propulsion (with the above mentioned "tiny" drawback), but also had in the early days they probably had the best control systems too. Aerial torpedoes were especially interesting for me not only because the wooden stabilizer surfaces but also because of the usage of gyrocompass. But as for cruisers:

How about negating the torpedo angles by implementing gyro angles?

I'll admit, while I thrown this in as an idea, I am somewhat reluctant, as I do not yet see the solution to the potential problem of spamming torps from behind islands. But who knows, considering torp reload time and an angry allied team, this might be less of a problem than it first seems. Anyway, Aoba could really use this, the rest I'm not certain about, but probably could be fine-tuned.

 

There was an answer from Sub_Octavian about that already.

It turns out they're going on principle that the gyro is used to determine the launch pattern while the physical angles of torpedo launcher determines launch angle, and that on every torpedo of every nation, since the gyro wasn't a exclusivity to Japanese torpedoes.
 

[AkosJaccik]

8 minutes ago, Exocet6951 said:

 

There was an answer from Sub_Octavian about that already.

It turns out they're going on principle that the gyro is used to determine the launch pattern while the physical angles of torpedo launcher determines launch angle, and that on every torpedo of every nation, since the gyro wasn't a exclusivity to Japanese torpedoes.
 

Ah, I see, thank you. Well then, there goes that.

Although "since the gyro wasn't a exclusivity to Japanese torpedoes" - neither was radar to allied ships, and yet... :)

[indycar]

brits had it, americans had it, germans had it, japan didnt

[JapLance]

1 minute ago, indycar said:

brits had it, americans had it, germans had it, japan didnt 

 

Don't mix Radar with Fire Control Systems. Japan had surveillance radars. Italy had. Even France had.

[Exocet6951]

58 minutes ago, AkosJaccik said:

Ah, I see, thank you. Well then, there goes that.

Although "since the gyro wasn't a exclusivity to Japanese torpedoes" - neither was radar to allied ships, and yet... :)

 

I think the only allied ships that didn't have both surveillance radars and FCS radars were the pre-refit French ones, who were lacking the FCS radar and made due with a pseudo radar which was worse by several generations of British radars, and could barely even be considered a radar when compared to US equipment.

Though to be fair, I don't know much about Dutch ships. I know they were reputed for good FCS, but I don't know the specifics.



That being said, I think their motivation for not having non-linear torpedo paths is also financial decision.
A curving torpedo would mean more calculations for the server. The poor things already chug and do incomprehensible things during primetime. Imagine them having to do that much more.
WG would have to invest in more infrastructure.
Fat chance of that happening.

[indycar]

im not mixing. japan developed radar recieving device and making approx position of allied ships with radar that way

 

http://www.combinedfleet.com/radar.htm

[TITANIC_131]

Anyhow, I do still think that IJN CA's are in a desperate need of a torpedo buff because of power creep. It doesn't have to be in the form of gyro angles, just plain longer range would cut it (total range of perhaps 12/15km). I think this because IJN CA torps have become kinda useless. I mean honestly, who even hits with theirs torps often to begin with anyway because of garbage fireing angles. Extended range should help with that.

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