Tier progression

[Jethro_Grey]

The french line was introduced recently, and i'm already at the Tier IX Saint-Luis.

I unlocked it on Sunday, and was happy at first.

 

I'm not talking about the performance, tho i have to say that the TIX feels less capable than the TVII and the TVIII.

Haven't had that many games, so it's maybe a issue with adjusting to the new ship.

 

Anyways, i am laready at TIX...and i feel like i missed out on something despite me only free xping the modules, not the ships themselfs.

After thinking a bit about it, i feel that the progession through the lower tiers is just too fast.

 

After playing the TVI last sunday(after unlocking the TIX), i did get better results than when i was grinding it. 

I guess that's part of the whole adjusting to the new ships and getting better with 'em.

 

But i had this nagging feeling that it would be - in my opinion - better if WG would increse the XP requirements for the lower tiers.

It felt like - and not for the first time, as i had the same feeling after previous lines too - i was progressing too fast.

The next ship was unlocked before i got used to the current one, and it kept repeating itself up until Tier VIII. 

 

Granted, i could just stick to a shipsuntil i have the feeling that "i squeezed every little bit of fun out of it", but pressing the unlock button is just too tempting. ^^

 

WoWS is pretty compareable to WoT, but the XP gain with camos and signals simply yields more XP and the progression is much faster, even in higher tiers. 

 

What do you think? Is the progression too fast? Should Wg adjust the XP requirements to have players stick a bit longer with lower tiers? 

 

Higher Xp requirements could possibly not only help with that,

[RUSSIANBlAS]

I find the XP needed for T9 onwards a bit too much but that might be due to having experience with most lines now and not wanting to grind anymore.

 

Thing is make grinding too long and it'll put off the casuals which WG needs to keep their game going.

[VC381]

Personally, I play the game for specific ships not for the grind. If the ship I want is high tier in a boring line I want to be able to get to it quickly and painlessly. If it happens to be mid tier I'll keep it and play it long after I'm past it in the line anyway (or in some cases I'll just stop progressing the line). The point is, making the grind longer restricts choice, so I'm not for it.

[1MajorKoenig]

I would personally flatten the XP progression.

 

Too fast at low tiers you simple breath through them and boring like hell oh high tiers of you don't like the ship for example.

 

+1 generally good proposal

[dCK_Ad_Hominem]

I have to agree with you on this one, Jethro. I recently bought the Hatsu so I could unlock the Shiratsuyu and complete my collection on non prem ijn dds. Played 1 game in her when she was stock, then free xped the hull and torps because she was abysmal.

 

14 games later I am about 5k xp away from unlocking the shira. Granted, I had a day of premium account, nice dailies, ecl flag and new years camo etc, but the real problem to me is that there is, even without this, hardly a way to make the credits for the next ship in these few games. On top of that you can only retrain a captain once you have the ship, so grinding the credits while training the cap on shinonome is also out of the question.

 

I usually play without prem account, but I do feel the xp requirements could be higher. Then again it also sort of depends on the ship. There are very few ones that are generally bad and only feel like a grind, but those which do should not suffer from this increase.

[Ferry_25]

Very interesting topic Jethro. Though I don't agree with you still +1. I think the xp reqs are very well on par in fact. In the very beginning I made the mistake of rushing the tiers too quickly. Somehow believing the higher the tier, the easier the game would become because: stronger ships!. Somewhere down the line of thought I must have missed the "so are theirs" part.... I learned this lesson on the Forum as a matter of fact. Since then I'll take all the time in the world to progress. When the Missoury grind started, I even stopped free xp-ing the upgrades. Got mighty Mo now and still grinding out the entire thing from stock bottom. Few reasons: when playing a new ship it fells like driving a new car. Yes I know how to drive but in the beginning it still feels akward. So I better get used to it and get decent while still stock: the better I'll become with the upgrades. Furthermore a lot of lines are upgrades of the previous ship (no not looking @ the USN cruiserline). So the previous ship prepares me in a way to the next. Also the captain xp grind is the "bottleneck" I wouldn't want a 10 pointer on a T9 f.e. So when I feel safe enough the present population isn't that potatoe-ish I'll mount capt XP flags. But I rarely mount ship xp signals. Only the cammo's But that's more from a economic POV in my case. And lastly: I think the grind is part of my fun. Finding myself at TIX in 3 weeks doesn't give me a thrill at all.

[Skyllon]

I feel the moment Wargaming raises xp requirements, we'll see ton of 'WG cashgrab' comments. Not sure if that is the way to go. I'd rather see some kind of prizes awarded for doing training missions (well thought though!) or some kind of system that awards playing for/with team.

 

Gonna brainstorm here, but I'd rather lock Tier progression with Level progression or overall number of battles played in certain class / tier before next one gets unlocked, since plain xp buff can be nullified easily with flags, premium and free xp (hence cashgrab).

[Vanhal]

Raising XP requirements for low tiers would be a good move, but it would require some adjustments:

1. Lowering them on high tiers. It's stale and unfun to grind that 8 and 9 tier on and on and on, especially if those ships are not fun.

2. Finally giving some love to low tiers.

3. Unborking 1-6 tier MM. Getting it back to +/-2, but adjusting ships and maps not to have such blatant power difference surges between tiers.

[1MajorKoenig]

Raising XP requirements for low tiers would be a good move, but it would require some adjustments:

1. Lowering them on high tiers. It's stale and unfun to grind that 8 and 9 tier on and on and on, especially if those ships are not fun.

2. Finally giving some love to low tiers.

3. Unborking 1-6 tier MM. Getting it back to +/-2, but adjusting ships and maps not to have such blatant power difference surges between tiers.

 

+1

[ColonelPete]

I usually do not use Free XP for modules and therefore the speed feels fine to me.

[blanc091]

IX to X is too much imho. I got over the fact that it costs an arm and a leg, but being forced to play them tier IXs too many games is a let-down.

[olmedreca]

Grind needs to be also tolerable to free-to-play <50% winrate newbies who haven't stocked up xp flags or camos. You can't really use a veteran player essentially sealclubbing their way through lower ranks as a proper measurement.

[BillydSquid]

Yeah, this is something I've noticed. 

 

I've got the Minotaur, Zao, Hindenburg and onto the Dimitri Donsky. Also have the Kurfusrt and Yamato for BBs. The difference between the play style of T9 - T10 isn't that different, by that point you should already know how to play your ship, and frankly you're just grinding through the xp to get a better MM and be top tier.

 

So it's just irritating to have to grind excessively to get to T10, significantly more so when the real learning curve is around T7-9 when you encounter the higher tiers more regularly. Yet players are able to grind their way through to T8 quite quickly and yet pick up none of the skills required to actually play effectively and predictably get their arse handed to them in T9/10 MM. 

 

When I first started this happened to me, I blasted through lower tiers very quickly then slammed into T8/9 where as a new CA player using the Hipper I got pulled into T10 MM and got absolutely demolished by T10 CAs and BBs. This was quite a while ago, back in the days of CV nerfs and torpedo soup, but I dropped down to T/78 and played several hundred games before pushing into T9/10 again, where I perform well enough now quite easily.

 

Still like dropping down to T7 & T8 to play the Shiny horse, Gneisenau and the rest of my T8 BBs and CAs

[EdiJo]

T8-T10 have too much grinding. T1-T5 way too little. I tend to fail to focus on a single line, I'm not paying much - and despite a few thousand games played still have only a few T9's and none of T10.

 

Advancing should not be based on "XP" which is awarded even if you totally fail and/or your team loses. Or on money if one buys high tier premium. It should be based on skill mostly. We need test PvE missions which would give "a licence" to drive given tier of a given ship line in PvP games. 

 

MM? +/-1 everywhere of course. Nothing justifies putting a player vs +2 tiers stronger enemies.

[anonym_MfZ6T7iwWpUC]

I think the issue with progression at higher tiers is two fold. The XP required is very high, but the biggest issue with progression for 8 to 10, is the cost in credits to buy the ships. For me, that is the biggest hurdle to getting into those high tiers. Once you get to 8, you will end up in 8 to 10 games anyway, so the fact it then takes so long to go those last two tiers is frustrating. Getting your first T8 ship feels great, but then the realisation of just how long it will then take to go the last two is well depressing.

 

At low tiers, I don't think its too bad. OK, you can get to T5 pretty quickly. But I think most players will then take longer to then get to T7. Especially new players. Like most, they may switch and swap class', nations etc.

[Exocet6951]

Wow wow there....

 

XP requirements might not look like much for a decent player running premium, flags and using free XP on the modules, but a newbie or a underperforming player without a premium account?

Telling him he would need even more battles to go from a tier5 to a tier6 would not be good for the game.

 

Hell, even for a decent player not running premium/flags/camo, going from tier 5 to 6 is a small (unfun given the MM) grind.

 

 

 

In short, don't try to balance the grind by taking flag+camo+premium+free xp modules as a baseline.

[anonym_MfZ6T7iwWpUC]

T8-T10 have too much grinding. T1-T5 way too little. I tend to fail to focus on a single line, I'm not paying much - 

 

 

 

This. I also lack focus. I have always jumped around a lot. As such, it took me ages to get my first T8 (Amagi).

[Favuz]

without premium account and flags, the grind is fair.

 

With my average/below average skills, no premium account, no camo, no flags, usually it took me (on average)

 

25 -30 games to grind tier IV (actually took 42 for svietlana when i was a real tomato with 42% WR)

30-35 games to grind tier V

60-70 games to grind tier VI (48 with my Christmas mission Leander with +50%xp camo)

80-90 games to grind tier VII

 

after that, i have 88 games with chapayev and  need at least 50k xp more for Donskoi (i have to check).

 

 

Moreso, a new player should play at least to tier IV-V before finding which line suit him better, so more xp for lower tiers is not a good idea (IMHO)

 

 

 

[anonym_MfZ6T7iwWpUC]

I think the issue with progression at higher tiers is two fold. The XP required is very high, but the biggest issue with progression for 8 to 10, is the cost in credits to buy the ships. For me, that is the biggest hurdle to getting into those high tiers.

 

​Just to add a little more to my point above. If I was to buy back my Amagi, it would cost me 10,900,000 credits, in base configuration alone. To buy the Yamato, just two tiers higher, its almost double that. The XP cost is an issue, but the credit cost is more of an issue for me.

[Cosseria]

The quick progression on low tiers is meant to encourage new players and besides most of those T 1 - 4 ships are underdogs which I wouldn't bear to grind for 50000 XP.

The problem with potatoes reaching T 9 without having a darn clue about the game lies elsewhere: lack of a real, readily accessible knowledge base about game mechanics and reluctance to put in place some kind of hard barrier for stubborn noobs.

[Gnirf]

I agree a lot with Favuz, 

It should be rather easy to get up to T5 or 6 it takes quite a time for a newbie who by the way perhaps spends a lot of time in coop, no flags,camos no freeXP. 

 

One thing also that I agree with is that higher tier grind is huge, if I did not have prem camos , ESCL flags using first win etc it would take forever. many players (the mass) do not have time to spend several hours each day, the game has become rather large with many tech trees , I started soon after the game went public in the two existing trees, starting now is a huge process. For many of us that has played a lot , grinding a new line is not too hard, you fix it even without FreeXP much, but for newcomers that want to play a lot of ships, both credits and XP are very tough above T6/7.

 

Sure it is lots of threads that bashes newcomers but with so many trees the grind can not be absurdly, you have so many interesting trees/lines today. 

[Ferry_25]

All good arguments. IMO the "underperforming player should get help" argument doesn't fly. I think we'll be having even more of the "newbie jumps into Tirptz" phenomenon... The only way to overcome underperforming is to keep practicing. Also if you're playing wows I assume one knows it's not a retina detatchting lightning bolt fast game. It'll take time. Enough other games which are different. As far as the FTP and P2W players: granted. It is easier with prem acc. But with all the missions/ events it's doable to win relevant flags and cammo's. Those you can use on your "pain ship" to boost progress.

[VC381]

We can put incentives in but if bad players don't get it and keep stubbornly playing even with bad performance instead of choosing to practice at a lower tier, I don't think it's our right to put in some hard denial. The economy becomes punishing enough around T8 I think to discourage a below average, non premium player. And if they pay that keeps the game afloat for all of us.

 

And actually the economy does help slow down progression. If you're playing badly then from around T6 you won't be able to afford a new ship when you have the XP for it, even if you sell the current one.

 

I stand by what I said, that it's nice to be able to jump around a tech tree and play specific ships you like instead of grinding. If people who can't handle the game don't have the self control to practice and progress at their own pace who are we to make them?

[hgbn_dk]

 

​Just to add a little more to my point above. If I was to buy back my Amagi, it would cost me 10,900,000 credits, in base configuration alone. To buy the Yamato, just two tiers higher, its almost double that. The XP cost is an issue, but the credit cost is more of an issue for me.

 

Sounds expensive at first.... But when you get it you don't have to upgrade modules.. No hull upgrade etc.

[hgbn_dk]

The french line was introduced recently, and i'm already at the Tier IX Saint-Luis.

I unlocked it on Sunday, and was happy at first.

 

I'm not talking about the performance, tho i have to say that the TIX feels less capable than the TVII and the TVIII.

Haven't had that many games, so it's maybe a issue with adjusting to the new ship.

 

Anyways, i am laready at TIX...and i feel like i missed out on something despite me only free xping the modules, not the ships themselfs.

After thinking a bit about it, i feel that the progession through the lower tiers is just too fast.

 

After playing the TVI last sunday(after unlocking the TIX), i did get better results than when i was grinding it. 

I guess that's part of the whole adjusting to the new ships and getting better with 'em.

 

But i had this nagging feeling that it would be - in my opinion - better if WG would increse the XP requirements for the lower tiers.

It felt like - and not for the first time, as i had the same feeling after previous lines too - i was progressing too fast.

The next ship was unlocked before i got used to the current one, and it kept repeating itself up until Tier VIII. 

 

Granted, i could just stick to a shipsuntil i have the feeling that "i squeezed every little bit of fun out of it", but pressing the unlock button is just too tempting. ^^

 

WoWS is pretty compareable to WoT, but the XP gain with camos and signals simply yields more XP and the progression is much faster, even in higher tiers. 

 

What do you think? Is the progression too fast? Should Wg adjust the XP requirements to have players stick a bit longer with lower tiers? 

 

Higher Xp requirements could possibly not only help with that,

 

The la gasoline have been buffed since you grind it. I also find it a lot better than then I grind it to. I like it