The hypocritical audacity of BBs

[Horin728]

So today I watched Notser stream... He went out in some BBs too. I watched with interest because he had quite the games in them... I have seen him fire of salvos against heavily angled cruisers and sure enough the overmatch kicked in and ensured the cruisers destruction... Two devastating strikes in two salvos.

 

And yet the BBs have the audacity to STILL complain about CVs. Read this very carefully: BBs should die to CVs in one strike too. If only to feel the pain they dish out, if not for historical accuracy.

 

Carrier is the ship that brought the end of BB era, just like the ironclads suprassed the sailing ships. But no... We have the CV nerf train, the AA power creep... Every single ship that can equip defensive AA has it equipped by default... Imagine how different the game would be if the hydro was the default consumable.

 

Now I know I complain about BBs a lot, but there is not a week that smells of... Unwise... decisions by WG in regards the BBs... First we have the BB weekend, than the Hunt for Bismarck, then we have defensive AA on the Hood, then RN BBs with (maybe) radar... 

And yet no info on the AP bombs for CVs or return of the 1/2/2 loadout for the Midway or any help for the USN CVs... Or anything else like the RN carriers... Just look at the Kaga, she has two TB squadrons and apparently that is fine... But on the Midway? Nothing but silence...

 

Really the BB madness must stop... Now the USN BBs are getting their citadeles lowered... So there will be even more AA...

 

Jesus...

 

[havaduck]

Its amazing how it goes every time: cruiser are shi7 -> buff cvs.

Cant wait for: DDs are crap, buff CVs!

Buff the god forsaken cruisers!

 

 

And yet no info on the AP bombs

 

Take a wild guess who has shitty AA, weak deck armor, huge citadels, is a huge target that is also not very manoeuvrable, has no heal and not a lot HP to begin with.

 

Congratz we have a winner: Its the shitty cruisers!  - and WG already made DB suffer less from defensive fire, if you happen to even pack it.

AP bombs on CVs are like radar on BBs, nothing else.

 

 

How about those CVs drop unarmed target buoys instead so the cruisers get something they can actually fight .....

[Tungstonid]

Regarding the devastating strikes: You did what? Watch one or two games of an above average (I assume) player where he managed to deal two devastating strikes? Bravo... Did you also count the times where is opponents should have received high damage but the dispersion made it like two shots too short, three shots too far, two bounces and one overpen? How often did that happen?

 

I'd agree on the other issues though. The AA on some BBs could/should be lower (although I disagree that a BB should die to a CV in one strike if he is taking evasive actions). The equipment of the Hood and especially the supposed equipment of the RN BBs (although this is not fixed according to whoever of the WG statt answered the thread) is debatable at best. Lowering the citadel of USN BBs... well, not necessary IMO.

However, I am not sure if you can compare the Kaga setup with a Midway. CVs already take a leap in power from tier 8 to tier 9 and 10. The Kaga is using squadrons of six torpedoe bombers, that is right, but as far as I know they are of tier 6 while Kaga is tier 7. So if the Kaga attacks ships of the same tier, she will almost guaranteed lose planes. The Midway on the other hand uses tier 10 torpedoe bombers (as in torpedoe bombers of the samer tier as the CV) hence there will be a difference in their performance.

[Horin728]

Stuff about CLs

 

Take a look at my stats, I play cruisers as a main and the main problem I have in them is the amount of BBs in a match - by buffing CVs/lowering the BBs AA we limit their number in a natural way, and we give cruisers their role back.

 

Stuff about BBs and CVs

 

I find it good representation of the problem - unless you get detonated there is no way you can get blown up in one salvo in a BB (especially german). CVs could do that back in time. Right now you can get deleted in any cruiser/dd even while taking evasive actions, why should the BBs be different?

 

I can compare the Kaga on the basis that while she is using weaker planes, her drop pattern and torpedo speed allows her to avoid the close range AA buble, while the Midway has to get close - ish for the TBs and super close for the dive bombers... And hope for a flood/fire, since her alpha is blutchered... Even when taking out the 1/1/3... I find the 2/1/2 the best loadout for her...

[Thracen]

Difference is a CC can take cover, hide or run from a BB. CVs can spot any target on the map outside smoke, strike behind any island and hit the whole map without ever taking a scratch on her hull. The only way to counter planes is with rng AA and high tier plans are so fast they can get huge hits on any BB even with perfect AA builds and counter steering from their targets. 

 

The only way to counter cvs is to huddle in fear around the 1 AA CC you might get in your match and hope you don't spawn out on your own too far away to reach the AA bubble that can all too easily be steaming away from you at over 30 knots, oh and he may not even pop his defensive fire for you either. This tactic forces all types of ships to play in compromised positions, the MOST IMPORTANT and potentially engaging mechanic of this damn game. Seriously to be good at wow all you need to do is shoot straight and position well, heavily weighted on the positioning bit. CVs force your positioning decisions down 1 path, where is my AA cover, fun, complex or entertaining this is not!

 

This is of course based on matched or higher Tier Cvs, low tier CVs still ruin games for other players but not with strikes, the AA is to good for that,simply spotting a dd, cc or even a BB that relies on stealth can end games for these poor souls, and what counter play is there to being perma spotted by a plane you can't even see to sail away from or towards to give your AA a chance to shoot it. Not that it can't kite you across the map helplessly anyway. 

[havaduck]

Take a look at my stats, I play cruisers as a main and the main problem I have in them is the amount of BBs in a match - by buffing CVs/lowering the BBs AA we limit their number in a natural way, and we give cruisers their role back.

 

Take a look at my stats, I play cruiser as a main and an even greater problem than any number of BBs or DDs is if a CV is present that can rape and pillage at leisure. Ofc your can CV out-damage-whoring the enemy and DD spotting/killing helps a lot, but I prefer balanced games over MM lottery.

 

Cruisers had not even a AA role during the total CV-fukaroo that was open-beta as they cant counter them - at all - and nothing has changed in that regard.

 

Want to know why cruisers usually dont get targeted immediately by a good CV? Because he knows that DDs win games, and wounded/bad positioned BBs are important too; oh and ofc the enemy CV as thats actual opposition.

Congrats Cruiser are "protected by not being destruction worthy" enough until they pose a thread to caps, DDs or its cleanup time anyway. Also everyone knows that of the 2-3 cruisers present, most of them are dead within minutes anyway. Why waste a strike on them anyway when there is more important stuff to kill?

 

So take a guess what happens when when you up the rape-quota for CV? hmmm?

We already have the CV apologists that dont see a problem when 1/4-1/3 of the team comes together (inkl. useless cruiser) and the CV still gets damage in; only to strike elsewhere later thanks to reserves an sitting behind even the campiest of BBs.

 

 

So before you up the rape-quota against BBs, you first gotta make cruiser actually counter CVs hard, because lets not forget: The CV chooses to attack where a cruiser is - and that cruiser is sooner or later randomly removed for doing nothing wrong at all.  On the other side a cruiser cant magically beam himself next to a CV. (And even that wouldnt guarantee a cruiser win )

 

 

If I get to pick between ending once and for all the CV rampage or the catering to the BBabies, I chose the first one any time - again totally from the perspective of a cruiser main for the game as it is now. ....... and I am so god dam fed up with WG catering to horde of brain-dead wallet-warriors and noobs that I basically switched to (shitty silver) cruisers exclusively to not add to the plague - that should tell you something.

 

 

btw: Remember that A1 spawn on Land of fire? How is ie a Colorado supposed to "reach his fleet", before a CVs plane come for rape and pillage? Are you willing to guarantee with MM that there are at least 1 cruiser WITH defensive fire per 2 ships present?

[TheIdesOfMarch93]

As a player since OBT and playing all ship classes (but primarily BBs and my Lady Lex CV nowadays) I'd say first ship I strike at the start of a match if I'm playing as a CV is a cruiser (assuming he doesn't have [edited]defensive AA fire or high AA to begin with). Wipe their scouting cruisers out first so your team's DDs can cap in peace and only need to deal with DDs contesting their capping (which CVs can help counter by permanently spotting them in the first place). 

 

Heck, most of the time when I'm in my BBs and I'm in a match the first ship of worth to shoot at is more likely than not a cruiser. Never underestimate the points advantage being a cruiser-shipcount up against the other team is towards the final winning margin. It's far harder to claw back to equal points than it is to open up a points advantage. 

[TheIdesOfMarch93]

Also, CVs already still possess the capability to one-shot ships the same way you whine about how BBs can oneshot cruisers. Except they depend far less on RNG to bless them for it. You can't control where your shell lands even if you aim perfectly when you're in a BB, but for CVs and their primary shipkilling weapon, the torpedobomber, you can accurately place DD-quality torpedoes inside of 2km against an enemy ship and get most of your intended hits home. Doesn't matter if your strike group gets shredded after they drop: the damage is already done. 

 

Cruisers whine about BBs being overpowered right now but honestly, you guys have [edited]HE power to burn battleships to the ground (and in CV matches it's even worse because HE wipes out AA mounts making BBs far more susceptible to air strikes) and you guys can actually outrun and hide from BBs far more easily than we can run and hide from your shells. I daresay as a cruiser captain you have far more reliable games whereby you whittle enemy BBs to the waterline and sink them than experienced BBs outright nuking you in one or two broadsides (and even when it does happen it's because you put yourself in the position to be nuked). 

[Philipp_ab_exterminatore]

That last part about US BBs citadels being lower so more AA is just insane lmfao wtf does a citadel have to do with AA

[El2aZeR]

There are a million reasons why BBs should be nerfed. The opening post presents none of them.

*slow clap*

[Vanhal]

Hahaha, that's rich. Forum is filled to the brim with BB hate and yet if BB player dares to complain, that's "hypocritical audacity".

 

OP is the very definition of hypocritical audacity. Also, that thought trainwreck: "I'm annoyed by someone complaining. It's time to create whine thread on the forum".

 

 

[Horin728]

Stuff about how CVs and "lack of aa protection"

 

I disagree firstly we have a whole line ships that are practically dedicated for countering the CVs. I am of course talking about the USN cruisers. Their AA is enough to give a pause to any CV, starting from cleveland up (and since WG gutted T4 A T5 CVs by removing manual drops there is no need for super AA at low tiers anymore). I have grinded that line back in CBT just to safe from CVs and I was. Nowdays I don't really bother with full AA builds, since there are so few CVs.

That a CV can strike you and you can't fight back? Save for TX (and probably Kaga), where plane reserves get quite high, every plane you shoot down is felt severly by the CV. If you loose your whole squad in something like Independence or Ranger, you are on the best way to be out of planes by the 10th minute of the match. And CV with no planes is basically a floating sausage. Same goes for when you make a positioning mistake. If you get spotted, you will die. It is super simple, CVs have paper thin armour and a spotting distance bigger than BBs, so you can't just "stop firing your guns and let the concealment take over."

 

Regarding spotting - since we are (probably) getting a BB line with radar, that can spot through islands (planes actually have to cross the island to see what is on the other side), there are allready cruisers with radar and DDs can usually outspot any other class I don't really see your point, outside of competetive matches, where the early spot provided by (IJN) CV is semi critical.

 

Stuff about: Cruisers having no AA, targeting DDs,

 

Once again I disagree I used to run full AA specs in the USN cruisers and was fine even in CBT/OBT I used to escort BBs and they were happy. The planes were falling out of the sky.

 

As to DDs as a target: Since my expirience comes from the USN CVs, DDs are not the XP pinatas like they are for the IJN CVs. There is no cross dropping in the US, nor super small DB circle to rely upon. Every time you attack a DD in an USN carrier it's either puer RNG fest (with dive bombers) or a huge mistake on the DDs part, if you can land your TB strike. Just take a look at this https://streamable.com/107r

 

To the Colorado - she actually has decent-ish AA and while slow, her turning circle allows her to dodge strikes quite well. And how about the time all the ships form a super blob of untouchable before the CV can get there? Imagine that instead of a Colorado a Bismarck spawns there. She does 30 knots.

 

Striking cruisers, one shotting ships

 

Yes striking cruisers can and has to be done, but since he deff AA consumable is the default one, in high tiers you can pretty much guarantee that someone will have it. And probably more people, since not everyone actually goes to the upgrades and changes it to hydro.

 

As to the one shotting, there are only 2 (3 with Kaga) CVs actually capable of one shotting a BB and those are taiho and Hakuryu. None of the USN CVs can do that. Yes they may wither down a BB over time (by staggering their drops, to force out a repair) but that takes time and more importantly prevents squadron stacking - which means if the player is at least semi competent he will focus fire your planes down. Not much of a case for IJN CVs, where the overwhelming amount of squadrons prevents focus firing (save for dedicated AA ships, which shoot down the planes fast enough).

 

That last part about US BBs citadels being lower so more AA is just insane lmfao wtf does a citadel have to do with AA

 

Let me explain this to you. Since the USN ships have better AA protection than most (talking about NC, Iowa and Monty) and since the citadel buff means that we probably will see more of them, ergo the average amount of AA will increase (yet again).

 

There are a million reasons why BBs should be nerfed. The opening post presents none of them.

*slow clap*

 

Well yes, since I have tried many times ot be reasonable and present arguments and suggestions I have decided to try the BB way. Whine and whine, since it seems to be super effective

Hahaha, that's rich. Forum is filled to the brim with BB hate and yet if BB player dares to complain, that's "hypocritical audacity".

 

OP is the very definition of hypocritical audacity. Also, that thought trainwreck: "I'm annoyed by someone complaining. It's time to create whine thread on the forum".

 

Basically a troll reply trying to get an emotional reaction from me. 

Still: Yes I am extremely annoyed with the state of the game, where there are 300 BBs in queue, which have immunity to citadels, hydro, radar, defensive AA, capability to delete other classes in one salvo (even DDs are not safe anymore). Basically your reply boils down to this:

 

Now all my points are written from the perspective of an USN CV, which may be skewing my view, so bear that in mind.

[Zerstoeroer]

 

Take a look at my stats, I play cruisers as a main and the main problem I have in them is the amount of BBs in a match - by buffing CVs/lowering the BBs AA we limit their number in a natural way, and we give cruisers their role back.

 

 

I took a look at your stats and found that your performance in high tier cruisers is not that good. I can understand your frustration in T5-8 cruisers (where your performance seems decent), but T9/10 is generally fine. I actually slightly prefer to play against BBs in my Roon and Hindenburg, because well played cruisers are insanely hard to hit well.

 

My problem are the potato BBs (and Shimas, of course) that are on my teams more often than not, but that's true no matter which class I play.

[fallenkezef]

Oh look OP whining about hos precious CVs again. Didn't see that coming

[159Hunter]

Oh look OP whining about hos precious CVs again. Didn't see that coming

 

Got anything usefull to say? Or just your usual rubbish?

 

OP, while I understand what you are saying, complaining on the forums isn't going to help. WG have stated in recent messages that they are looking into a CV and BB rework/balance. So give them some time to come up with something. And for now, why not join the dark side and play BB? I found this greatly amusing as there is nothing more enjoyable than punishing another BB showing you his broadside.

[fallenkezef]

 

Got anything usefull to say? Or just your usual rubbish?

 

OP, while I understand what you are saying, complaining on the forums isn't going to help. WG have stated in recent messages that they are looking into a CV and BB rework/balance. So give them some time to come up with something. And for now, why not join the dark side and play BB? I found this greatly amusing as there is nothing more enjoyable than punishing another BB showing you his broadside.

 

Just the usual rubbish, same as OP's usual rubbish.

[159Hunter]

 

Just the usual rubbish, same as OP's usual rubbish.

 

OP at least tried to explain what he said in relation to the gameplay. You just outright attacked his person. If you fail to see the difference there...

[fallenkezef]

 

OP at least tried to explain what he said in relation to the gameplay. You just outright attacked his person. If you fail to see the difference there...

 

Oh cool, abuse of the full stop, i can do that too.....

[VC381]

Sorry but if a cruiser is on the receiving end of a devastating strike, guess who's fault it is? That's right, the cruiser captain. And before you jump down my throat I'm a cruiser main, not amazing by any means but check my stats if you like. If I eat a devastating strike, I blame myself and myself only. The whole "cruisers suffer too much against BBs" thing is getting tiresome.

[SteDorff]

Should I now start a thread with title The hypocritical audacity of a CV player? Majority chooses BB who are you to say they may not do so ? If you can play a racing game you also choose the car that suits you the most BB s are the most appealing to most why play a dwarfship or a coward with planes in the back if you can have a butch big ship and guns?

 

CV s already DOMINATE an RUIN battles if you are not a noob CV that is

 

CV s focos on one BB sending 3 bomber squads and 3 torpedo squads then go to the next etc. how is that fair?

dropping torpedos 1 km from your ship you can't evade no matter how hard you try 

AA on BBs even Bismarck etc does not prevent you from getting deleted at the utmost it destroys 1-5 planes you will have a lot of squads full left

fighter planes on a BB are a joke half the time they just fly in circels even when 6 squads approach

when a fighter squad on a BB activates it only holds up 1 CV squad out of the 6 squads

CV s are egoistical your friendly CV nowadays only helps himself does not help with fighter planes (few exeptions)

having fighters on BB means you can't have spotter and since no one else spots. A BB that has planes is better of with spotter planes

having a TOP AA build on a BB does not prevent from getting deleted by a CV I tried you will shoot down 10 planes and your ships sinks but the CV has plenty left to still carry on and all the games without a CV youd wish you had taken other equipment

CV s take the fun out of brawling is very frustrating and they know it it is not one on one but BB and the one that has the good CV on his side wins

 

More important as German BB like Bismarck you go to cap to assist but a lot of times you get no assistance dd s don't spot or cap cruisers don't hunt dd s so you have to do it all yourselve then you are also the main focus of the CV 

 

Think of this: a lot of players complain about BB s not going to cap and staying behind or snipe from a distance why do you think this happens? Well above is your answer and if CVs get buffed you will not see me at cap anymore as well I will also try to medium or long distance snipe with an American or Japanese BB this in spite of me wanting to play with brawling ships so you already altered my gameplay when you can still comvienienntly cowardly can play from the back of the map in your CV.

[BrettMRC]

Should I now start a thread with title The hypocritical audacity of a CV player? Majority chooses BB who are you to say they may not do so ? If you can play a racing game you also choose the car that suits you the most BB s are the most appealing to most why play a dwarfship or a coward with planes in the back if you can have a butch big ship and guns?

 

CV s already DOMINATE an RUIN battles if you are not a noob CV that is

 

CV s focos on one BB sending 3 bomber squads and 3 torpedo squads then go to the next etc. how is that fair?

dropping torpedos 1 km from your ship you can't evade no matter how hard you try 

AA on BBs even Bismarck etc does not prevent you from getting deleted at the utmost it destroys 1-5 planes you will have a lot of squads full left

fighter planes on a BB are a joke half the time they just fly in circels even when 6 squads approach

when a fighter squad on a BB activates it only holds up 1 CV squad out of the 6 squads

CV s are egoistical your friendly CV nowadays only helps himself does not help with fighter planes (few exeptions)

having fighters on BB means you can't have spotter and since no one else spots. A BB that has planes is better of with spotter planes

having a TOP AA build on a BB does not prevent from getting deleted by a CV I tried you will shoot down 10 planes and your ships sinks but the CV has plenty left to still carry on and all the games without a CV youd wish you had taken other equipment

CV s take the fun out of brawling is very frustrating and they know it it is not one on one but BB and the one that has the good CV on his side wins

 

More important as German BB like Bismarck you go to cap to assist but a lot of times you get no assistance dd s don't spot or cap cruisers don't hunt dd s so you have to do it all yourselve then you are also the main focus of the CV 

 

Think of this: a lot of players complain about BB s not going to cap and staying behind or snipe from a distance why do you think this happens? Well above is your answer and if CVs get buffed you will not see me at cap anymore as well I will also try to medium or long distance snipe with an American or Japanese BB this in spite of me wanting to play with brawling ships so you already altered my gameplay when you can still comvienienntly cowardly can play from the back of the map in your CV.

 

Do you need a hug?

[ShinGetsu]

Oh look OP whining about hos precious CVs again. Didn't see that coming

 

Can you please stop talking about game balance ? You played 600 battles, you are a very under average player (freepexed both Edinburgh and Neptune ? Really ?), and you obviously have no idea about what you're talking about. You're starting to get very annoying. Learn to play, learn the game, then come back with your "bright" ideas. Maybe you'll have a bit of credibility by then.

 

Also for the player above, blaming CV for the lack of pushing BB is hilarious. BB are camping whether there's a CV or not in the game. Actually they even camp MORE when there's no CV because there is nothing to stop them from sitting bow-on the whole match.

And complaining about getting deleted by a CV when playing Bismarck ? Either you're against Taiho/Hakuryuu/Essex/Midway and sailing alone (and you deserve the delete), or you did something very wrong. Full AA Bismarck can deal very easily against a Shokaku, and you can even hurts badly the plane of a full strike Lex. Or at least mitigate the damage.

[Horin728]

CV domination and the muber of squadrons

 

Once again I have to stress out that I write this form the POV of a Midway, where you don't have 3 TB squads nor 3 DB squads. In the matches where the Mid meets the Haku, it is the Midways job to stop Hakus 1st or 2nd strike package. That is why she has better fighters. If your CV is worth anything, he knows that and will do that. The Midway wins by staggering her attacks and racking up dot damage/kills, the Haku alpha strikes her targets. Therefore if the Midway can stop the 1st or 2nd strike, she will win thanks to her higher hangar capacity. If you are being subject to a concentrated dorp by the Haku and your CV isn't doing anything about it, look at his situation - he might be engaged with the enemy fighters (which is unfortunate) or he might just plain suck. Same with other members of your team, if they charge in like madmen there is not much you can do.

 

 

Just the usual rubbish, same as OP's usual rubbish.

 

Very contstructive, much wow.

 

 

Sorry but if a cruiser is on the receiving end of a devastating strike, guess who's fault it is? That's right, the cruiser captain. And before you jump down my throat I'm a cruiser main, not amazing by any means but check my stats if you like. If I eat a devastating strike, I blame myself and myself only. The whole "cruisers suffer too much against BBs" thing is getting tiresome.

 

On this one I am torn. Yes showing a perfect broadside is of course a mistake, however I can't count the number of times I got randomly citadeled when I was heavily angled, just because the overmatch mechanic said F you in the moment in particular.

[fallenkezef]

 

Can you please stop talking about game balance ? You played 600 battles, you are a very under average player (freepexed both Edinburgh and Neptune ? Really ?), and you obviously have no idea about what you're talking about. You're starting to get very annoying. Learn to play, learn the game, then come back with your "bright" ideas. Maybe you'll have a bit of credibility by then.

 

Also for the player above, blaming CV for the lack of pushing BB is hilarious. BB are camping whether there's a CV or not in the game. Actually they even camp MORE when there's no CV because there is nothing to stop them from sitting bow-on the whole match.

And complaining about getting deleted by a CV when playing Bismarck ? Either you're against Taiho/Hakuryuu/Essex/Midway and sailing alone (and you deserve the delete), or you did something very wrong. Full AA Bismarck can deal very easily against a Shokaku, and you can even hurts badly the plane of a full strike Lex. Or at least mitigate the damage.

 

Nah, I'll express my opinion thanks. Your arrogant belief that i shouldn't just encourages me.

[Kaput_Mundi]

I'll give my brief assessment on this subject.

1. BBs are crazy popular because they are the most "powerful", armored and forgiving ship class. Plus, they are BBs, and BBs are always epic.

 

2. BBs have a lot of tools to withstand almost anything, provide they don't yolo like idiots.

 

3. Every single ship class in the game can and will be a pain in the back for another. Every class have the tools to survive and dish out potent damage if played correctly.

4. CVs maybe be not nice to play against, but they add a tactical element to the game, which in ultimate analysis requires teamwork to counter: which 99% of random games lacks. That's the reason why a good CV captain can wreck havoc among a disunite enemy team, while not being able to do almost anything to a solid enemy squadron working together.

5. I am a cruiser main, i also play a lot of BBs. Recently i tapped into DDs and CVs.
No ship class is overpowered, and if it seems it's captain's fault, not ship's.
You always have the tools to get rid of your enemy.