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British battleships incoming

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Just now, Capra76 said:

 

No you didn't, you gave me your opinion on the points that suited you.

That is what we call an argument, and I still answered all your points, not the points that suited me.


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Just one quick observation - In WoT and Armoured Warfare the highest Tiers have frontal Armour that often cannot be penetrated by lower Tiers but most everyone seems to accept it yet here we seem to struggle with the idea.

HE does at least give you some Damage potential - god knows I have taken lots of Fire damage from DD's and Cruisers in my time so why are we focused on the need for a T7 to be able to do lots of damage to a T10?

 

Think of it in similar terms to a cruiser vs a BB - if the cruiser is handled brilliantly and the BB poorly the cruiser can win - but most of the time the BB lands a couple of good hits and it's bye bye cruiser so surely the same applies?

With a lot of skill and a fair amount of luck (or a poor enemy captain) the T7 could win but the most common result is the T7 heads for the bottom - wanting the T7 to be able to reliably penetrate the T10's armour kind of makes grinding said T10 pointless? especially when given luck and time you can burn him down to the keel anyway?

 


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7 minutes ago, KurtVonSteiger said:

Just one quick observation - In WoT and Armoured Warfare the highest Tiers have frontal Armour that often cannot be penetrated by lower Tiers but most everyone seems to accept it yet here we seem to struggle with the idea.

HE does at least give you some Damage potential - god knows I have taken lots of Fire damage from DD's and Cruisers in my time so why are we focused on the need for a T7 to be able to do lots of damage to a T10?

 

Think of it in similar terms to a cruiser vs a BB - if the cruiser is handled brilliantly and the BB poorly the cruiser can win - but most of the time the BB lands a couple of good hits and it's bye bye cruiser so surely the same applies?

With a lot of skill and a fair amount of luck (or a poor enemy captain) the T7 could win but the most common result is the T7 heads for the bottom - wanting the T7 to be able to reliably penetrate the T10's armour kind of makes grinding said T10 pointless? especially when given luck and time you can burn him down to the keel anyway?

 

Really it is a balance, you want to make the Tier 10s worth grinding, and you certainly don't want to make it so every tier 7, or include one tier 7, that is capable of damaging it with ease, at the same time you don't want to introduce a Tier 8 that can barely handle the ships of the same type and tier and be completely useless to every tier above. Although KGV can handle the Tier 8's, not barely, it can still deliver a good thrashing when it is able to fight on it's own conditions, the 14" guns have good penetration once they have closed to within 8km, it is still completely outmatched by ships like the Iowa.


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It's not worth arguing with this guy as he ignores when you give in game evidence that even 203mm guns can get citadels on T8+ BBs, and also ignores the overmatch the KGV receives by having only 25mm of bow armor instead of the proper 32mm, I would trade guns for Bow armor any day (on a BB, cruisers have mobility going for them), with his argument the Bismarck should be tier 7 to as it's guns aren't 16" like other tier 8's and struggle against Yamatos.


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8 minutes ago, Chaos_Umbra said:

It's not worth arguing with this guy as he ignores when you give in game evidence that even 203mm guns can get citadels on T8+ BBs, and also ignores the overmatch the KGV receives by having only 25mm of bow armor instead of the proper 32mm, I would trade guns for Bow armor any day (on a BB, cruisers have mobility going for them), with his argument the Bismarck should be tier 7 to as it's guns aren't 16" like other tier 8's and struggle against Yamatos.

First off, I never ignored the fact a Tier 8 Cruiser can Citadel a Tier 8 Battleship, all or nothing armour is one thing that can contribute to this, even I've done it with the Fiji's 152mm guns at point blank range to Tier 7 Gneisenau, nor have I ignored the overmatch from the 25mm bow armour, though the 32mm armour gives the ship justice, and I certainly don't think the Bismarck should be tier 7 because its guns aren't 16", and I certainly don't see how it struggles with Yamato, a ship 2 tiers up from it, is relevant (whether it actually struggles with Yamato or not) when I'd expect a ship to struggle vs a ship tiers above it.


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8 minutes ago, Chaos_Umbra said:

It's not worth arguing with this guy as he ignores when you give in game evidence that even 203mm guns can get citadels on T8+ BBs, and also ignores the overmatch the KGV receives by having only 25mm of bow armor instead of the proper 32mm, I would trade guns for Bow armor any day (on a BB, cruisers have mobility going for them), with his argument the Bismarck should be tier 7 to as it's guns aren't 16" like other tier 8's and struggle against Yamatos.

He doesn't ignore it, he just doesn't know what overmatch is, how penetration works in general or what fuze time does.


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Posted (edited)

10 hours ago, Earl_of_Northesk said:

He doesn't ignore it, he just doesn't know what overmatch is, how penetration works in general or what fuze time does.

I do know over match, penetration and fuse times works thanks *Edited

Edited by Nohe21
*This post has been edited by the moderation team due to not being constructive.

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3 minutes ago, Chipmunk_of_Vengeance said:

First off, I never ignored the fact a Tier 8 Cruiser can Citadel a Tier 8 Battleship, all or nothing armour is one thing that can contribute to this, even I've done it with the Fiji's 152mm guns at point blank range to Tier 7 Gneisenau, ...

 

So the short fuse on the Fiji is not a disadvantage?


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8 minutes ago, Gojuadorai said:

 

 

FLAMU vid link on conq. cause im to stupid to insert embedet vid

 

need to share this cause its super hilarious

 

 

There, embedded.

 

 

Little do they know ... that WG won't buff the Conque.. MEGAZAO!!!

They're going to nerf the normal Zao instead, because it's a cruiser. You seen the damage that Zao did to his Conque.. MEGAZAO? Totally OP, needs nurf!

 

 

Also, I'm old. I read the video title as MEGAZORD the first time I saw it.


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Just now, herrjott said:

 

So the short fuse on the Fiji is not a disadvantage?

At Short range against a heavily armoured target no, it is not a disadvantage.


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10 hours ago, Chipmunk_of_Vengeance said:

I do know over match, penetration and fuse times works thanks *Edited

You obviously don't. Otherwise you would make statements like "fuze time does affect long range gun performance" when it doesn't. It's got almost nothing to do with that. It has zero effect on shatters, which are determined only by angle of impact and penetration. Yet, you claimed the fuze time does have an effect on that when it absolutely doesn't. Fuze time only has an effect on the time the shell travels until it explodes after penetrating armour. 


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5 hours ago, Chipmunk_of_Vengeance said:

Well unless Battleship armour is much thinner than what it is in game currently it is the case, low fuse time = more AP shatters vs thick armour at long range, within 8km it becomes an advantage.

This is exactly what I put, not that short fuse affects long range firing Mr. Salty German, it is about ballistics and projectile flying arc.


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2 minutes ago, Chipmunk_of_Vengeance said:

This is exactly what I put, not that short fuse affects long range firing Mr. Salty German, it is about ballistics and projectile flying arc.

What you quoted there is BULLCRAP. Fuze time does NOT affect the likelihood of shatters. Not at all. The game calculates if armour is penetrated, only when that's a "yes" fuze time comes into play to determine how far the shell will travel.

 

It really is amazing how you can use something which I just proved wrong to determine you were right from the get go. No, you were wrong.


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1 minute ago, Earl_of_Northesk said:

What you quoted there is BULLCRAP. Fuze time does NOT affect the likelihood of shatters. Not at all. The game calculates if armour is penetrated, only when that's a "yes" fuze time comes into play to determine how far the shell will travel.

 

It really is amazing how you can use something which I just proved wrong to determine you were right from the get go. No, you were wrong.

I wasn't wrong, the low fuse will affect whether the shell actually penetrates and how far into the ship that shell is going to go before the explosive goes off, a shatter means a zero damage hit, not a ricochet or non penetration.


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Just now, Chipmunk_of_Vengeance said:

I wasn't wrong, the low fuse will affect whether the shell actually penetrates and how far into the ship that shell is going to go before the explosive goes off, a shatter means a zero damage hit, not a ricochet or non penetration.

No, the fuze time does NOT determine whether a shell penetrates armour. It doesn't matter if it's 0.033 or 0.015 when it comes to that. Its not part of penetration calculation, which you would know if you had an actual clue how anything works here. A shatter isn't a just a zero damage hit, a shatter is a shell that doesn't ricochet but also doesn't penetrate the armour. Those are the goddamn basics man.


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6 minutes ago, Earl_of_Northesk said:

No, the fuze time does NOT determine whether a shell penetrates armour. It doesn't matter if it's 0.033 or 0.015 when it comes to that. Its not part of penetration calculation, which you would know if you had an actual clue how anything works here. A shatter isn't a just a zero damage hit, a shatter is a shell that doesn't ricochet but also doesn't penetrate the armour. Those are the goddamn basics man.

The short fuse can increase the chance of it happening, and how far the shell will actually go inside the ship if it does penetrate, it is more to do as well as to where the shell hits on the ship and at what angle.


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27 minutes ago, Aotearas said:

 

There, embedded.

 

Little do they know ... that WG won't buff the Conque.. MEGAZAO!!!

They're going to nerf the normal Zao instead, because it's a cruiser. You seen the damage that Zao did to his Conque.. MEGAZAO? Totally OP, needs nurf!

 

Also, I'm old. I read the video title as MEGAZORD the first time I saw it.

 

I don't know if this should make me laugh or cry or shake my head in disbelief. :Smile_unsure:


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12 minutes ago, Chipmunk_of_Vengeance said:

The short fuse can increase the chance of it happening, and how far the shell will actually go inside the ship if it does penetrate, it is more to do as well as to where the shell hits on the ship.

It can't. Please explain me how any fuze time can affect armour penetration when it's not part of the formula calculation armour penetration. You are wrong here and it really is rather funny how you yet again try to rescue what little has been left of your reputation here.

 

Let me explain penetration to you:

First of all, the game checks, upon hit, if the armour that's been hit is thick enough to set the fuze. That's unrelated to fuze time, before you are jumping on that. That's related to how much the resistance the fuze has to meet to be armed. If that's a yes, the game checks if it's an overmatch. If yes, the game determines how far that shell travels based on fuze time and where it explodes. If overmatch is a no, the game checks for the angle of impact and if the shell is a ricochet. If the angle is to steep, the shell ricochets off. If not, the game determines the armour thickness based on angle of impact: the steeper the angle, the more armour needs to travel through (that's why angling works, in case you didn't know...). The game then calculates the armour penetration of the shell upon impact based on: Krupp, velocity and weight. If the calculated penetration is lower than the armour met, the shell shatters. If it is high enough, the shell penetrates. Penetration calculation done. Has there been anything in regards to fuze time yet? Nope. The fuze time comes into play when the penetrating shell leaves the armour and determines the travel distance. If there's enough shiproom, you will get a full penetration or a citadel. If not, it overpens. 

 

So, how on EARTH has fuze time anything to do with the likelihood of a shell penetrating/shattering? Lower fuze time is only there to decrease the amount of overpens, that's why the British CL's got it so they can deal damage to DD's


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Fuse time determines only what kind of pen it is :

 

Penetration_check_WOWS.jpg

 


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15 minutes ago, Earl_of_Northesk said:

It can't. Please explain me how any fuze time can affect armour penetration when it's not part of the formula calculation armour penetration. You are wrong here and it really is rather funny how you yet again try to rescue what little has been left of your reputation here.

-snip-

I know how penetration works, from what I've seen in battles with the British cruisers, the short fuse will affect the angles the shell can land for penetration, with the same caliber gun I can make a penetration with a longer fuse that I cannot make with the short fuses against the same level of armour and at the same point.


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British CLs has 5 ms fuse. if we extrapolate with the initial shell velocity of 700 m/s, it can travel 700 * 0.005 = 3,5 m in the ship.

i understand what you think but an armour plate modeled in this game is only a surface with zero thickness and an attribute = armour thickness. it is not a real plate like in real life.


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10 minutes ago, Chipmunk_of_Vengeance said:

I know how penetration works, from what I've seen in battles with the British cruisers, the short fuse will affect the angles the shell can land for penetration, with the same caliber gun I can make a penetration with a longer fuse that I cannot make with the short fuses against the same level of armour and at the same point.

 

No, that has nothing to do with the fuze timer.

 

The reason why RN CL AP shells can penetrate ships at a much sharper angle is because they have better penetration angles. The same way the US AP shells also get better penetration angles (though not as good as the RN CLs) and they have normal fuze timers.

 

Seriously man, get your facts straight!

 

Penetration checks involve caliber size (overmatch yes or no), penetration angles (bounce at angle or no) and penetration performance (penetrate the armour or shatter). The fuze timer has NOTHING, exactly ZERO to do with armour penetration. It is solely responsible to determine at which point AFTER the penetration the shell is going to explode (i.e.: will it detonate inside the ship or not).


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9 hours ago, Chipmunk_of_Vengeance said:

I know how penetration works, from what I've seen in battles with the British cruisers, the short fuse will affect the angles the shell can land for penetration, with the same caliber gun I can make a penetration with a longer fuse that I cannot make with the short fuses against the same level of armour and at the same point.

Amazing example of selection bias. All I can say is: your observations are not true. Because British AP autoricochets at 75 degrees instead of 60 degrees like normal cruiser AP does, it's actually more likely you will penetrate the armour. Also, yet again, even within your amazingly limited knowledge of the game, that's just a false equivalency. When, as I have shown (and look up armour penetration on the wiki if you want to have proof), fuze time is not a variable in armour penetration, how can a low fuze time negatively impact the penetration of your shells?

 

9 hours ago, Darth_Glorious said:

British CLs has 5 ms fuse. if we extrapolate with the initial shell velocity of 700 m/s, it can travel 700 * 0.005 = 3,5 m in the ship.

i understand what you think but an armour plate modeled in this game is only a surface with zero thickness and an attribute = armour thickness. it is not a real plate like in real life.

Even then no armour plate in the game would be thick enough to have any noticeable effect on penetration.

 

9 hours ago, Aotearas said:

 

No, that has nothing to do with the fuze timer.

 

The reason why RN CL AP shells can penetrate ships at a much sharper angle is because they have better penetration angles. The same way the US AP shells also get better penetration angles (though not as good as the RN CLs) and they have normal fuze timers.

 

Seriously man, get your facts straight!

 

Penetration checks involve caliber size (overmatch yes or no), penetration angles (bounce at angle or no) and penetration performance (penetrate the armour or shatter). The fuze timer has NOTHING, exactly ZERO to do with armour penetration. It is solely responsible to determine at which point AFTER the penetration the shell is going to explode (i.e.: will it detonate inside the ship or not).

Just what I told him. I actually explained the mechanic in even more detail, but he will just ignore us both. Because his 600 games in low tier ships are far more meaningful than actual knowledge of game mechanics.


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I like it when supertesters are obviously unaware of who they are arguing with, it's C_O_V which has made quite the name for himself already around here mind you. Just admit that he's right, that we we're just trying a practical joke on him about this thing called 'reality' and that the people with the white van and the straightjacket will be here shortly.

 

:Smile_trollface:  

 

24 minutes ago, Darth_Glorious said:

Fuse time determines only what kind of pen it is :

 

Penetration_check_WOWS.jpg

 

 

A picture should be all that is needed, if one only had an eye to see it and a working non intoxicated brain cell to process it. 


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