Few Thoughts on Cruiser Vs. Battleship balance at High tiers.

[Kazomir]

Hello,

 

To skip to the chase, I've been recently trying cruisers again after a long journey up the USN BB Line (went up to Ncarolina, and also have an Alabama)

 

While playing, it once again became apparent why cruisers are just not good enough compared to battleships, at least at higher tiers. (and in random, competitive modes not included in this half-rant) Please note, I am not addressing RN cruisers as they are almost a different class entirely.

 

I will list several reasons why I think higher tier cruisers are not as useful as a battleship.

 

1. As tiers go up, the mobility between BB and CA class gets more and more similar - Battleships become faster and more able to relocate and affect multiple battles accross the map (they also reach insane ranges) CA's on the other hand become slower.  The characteristic ability of cruisers of lower tiers is that they are mobile and can contribute across multiple flanks in the span of one game. If a Colorado chooses one flank though, that's it. Iowa? Nah man no problem just leg it to the other flank no problem.

 

2. Citadel Damage. - Every cruiser player knows that multiple BBs in his game means he will have to spend most of his time looking at the sky for incoming shells as his target-meter will instantly show 4+ people aiming at them as soon as they pop out of stealth.  

 

Thing is, Fear of citadel damage impacts cruisers so much that at times they have no choice of even turning away from an enemy battleship group, as as soon as they attempt a turn, they are deleted.  No other class in this game can be destroyed with such an ease at the blink of an eye. Example, a lot of things must go right for a CV to delete a BB with a single strike, or for a DD to Devastate a BB with a single torp salvo. Deleting or cripping a cruiser? It is up to luck most of the time.   (DD knife-fights are different cathegory.)

 

3. Damage Types and Damage Retention - A cruiser, most of the time, will rely on HE and Fire damage to rack up the damage. BBs on the other hand almost exclusively use AP. I have a few problems with this.

 

• As a cruiser, Fire and HE damage is easily healed, and sometimes repaired. In effect, a solid % of your damage is negated through a simple press of a button or two. This does not make you FEEL useful. In comparison, BB HE pens and citadel penetrations are not easily healable.
• Fire damage is not rewarded with credits/XP, which is BS. I may be wrong here but this is the information I have. Meanwhile BB's get XP for tanking.
• Due to reason number 2., Cruisers are most of the time not even able to bring most of their guns to bare on a target. Any DPM and RoF advantage is mostly negated.

 

4. Survivability.  - Survivability in this game consists of 5 factors. Health, Armor, Mobility, Range and Stealth. Comparing DD, CA and BB, it is apparent that Cruisers are one of the most fragile classes simply by virtue of not being able to rely on any of those 5 factors (Some russian cruisers can rely on their range and good arcs). Jack of all trades in this sense is not an advantage, but a disadvantage. I feel at least 1 of those factors should be buffed with cruisers as currently in random games, the cruiser class is the most hard to survive with.

 

I feel, as such, playing cruiser in randoms is currently not rewarding, neither in sense of in-game credits and economy, nor rewarding for the person that uses the cruiser (As he does not feel useful)

 

I Welcome anybody who wishes to add or disprove anything I have to say.

[Sidian42]

In my opinion, cruisers are in a good shape at the moment. They have just more individual weak ships than the other classes, e.g. USN BBs have the Colorado as a "weakling", IJN BBs have the Izumo... are there even "weaklings" in the KM BB line? On the other hand, USN CAs have Pensacola and New Orleans, KM CAs have Nürnberg, Yorck and Hipper, RN CA line basically starts at t6 because the t1-t5 ships are so bad...

 

But these weak ships shouldn't be taken as an example for the whole ship class in general. The stronger cruisers are doing pretty well. So instead of changing whole mechanics, WG should buff weak cruisers more (like they did with the New Orleans and Baltimore already, and the Baltimore buff helped quite a bit, although the New Orleans is still not doing very well).

[Kazomir]

In my opinion, cruisers are in a good shape at the moment. They have just more individual weak ships than the other classes, e.g. USN BBs have the Colorado as a "weakling", IJN BBs have the Izumo... are there even "weaklings" in the KM BB line? On the other hand, USN CAs have Pensacola and New Orleans, KM CAs have Nürnberg, Yorck and Hipper, RN CA line basically starts at t6 because the t1-t5 ships are so bad...

 

But these weak ships shouldn't be taken as an example for the whole ship class in general. The stronger cruisers are doing pretty well. So instead of changing whole mechanics, WG should buff weak cruisers more (like they did with the New Orleans and Baltimore already, and the Baltimore buff helped quite a bit, although the New Orleans is still not doing very well).

 

Colorado and Izumo are beasts among their respective tiers, dunno why would you say they are weak. They can definitely carry agame.

 

Meanwhile even "Good" cruisers like the buffed Mogami can not do that, compared to Alabama, NCal, Amagi, Bismarck? Why even take her? No AA, Same damage potential as a BB but crappy survivability in comparison... If you need a scout or a damage dealer take Benson or a BB Instead.

[BillydSquid]

What tiers do you mean? T8? Yeah, they suffer badly from being up tiered and they're not anymore powerful that their T7 counterparts, and they end up running into T10 and T9 regularly which results in them getting stomped on hard. 

 

T9, are pretty decent, T10 CAs/ CLs can put out a scary amount of damage given the opportunity but you also have to abuse the mechanics and know how to manipulate game meta to a disgusting degree by hiding behind islands, smoke, stealth play etc. Basically don't act as a CA/ CL support ship because you'll be nuked, either wolf pack it and spam HE at BBs until they cry and run away or use the RN and melt DDs and hammer BBs with AP whenever they give a broadside. 

 

High tier CA/CL are in a good position at the moment, but they suffer horribly from lucky citadel hits fired from a potato BB 16+km away which will fire at you rather than the BB in front of him as you're a soft target or a stray shell penetrates through the bow and wrecks your HP. 

 

Smaller citadels, or spaced into 3 for the magazines and engine compartments, that's it. And T8 could do with a repair party consumable. Other than that the ships themselves are in a good position. 

 

The real issue is that BB numbers are stupid given WG has given them numerous direct and indirect buffs, their counters are non existent given the nerfs they've received or the poor level of tutorial and bad economy that CVs suffer from. To bring BBs  into check you need to make CVs viable again as a counter.  

 

 

[Kazomir]

What tiers do you mean? T8? Yeah, they suffer badly from being up tiered and they're not anymore powerful that their T7 counterparts, and they end up running into T10 and T9 regularly which results in them getting stomped on hard. 

 

T9, are pretty decent, T10 CAs/ CLs can put out a scary amount of damage given the opportunity but you also have to abuse the mechanics and know how to manipulate game meta to a disgusting degree by hiding behind islands, smoke, stealth play etc. Basically don't act as a CA/ CL support ship because you'll be nuked, either wolf pack it and spam HE at BBs until they cry and run away or use the RN and melt DDs and hammer BBs with AP whenever they give a broadside. 

 

High tier CA/CL are in a good position at the moment, but they suffer horribly from lucky citadel hits fired from a potato BB 16+km away which will fire at you rather than the BB in front of him as you're a soft target or a stray shell penetrates through the bow and wrecks your HP. 

 

Smaller citadels, or spaced into 3 for the magazines and engine compartments, that's it. And T8 could do with a repair party consumable. Other than that the ships themselves are in a good position. 

 

The real issue is that BB numbers are stupid given WG has given them numerous direct and indirect buffs, their counters are non existent given the nerfs they've received or the poor level of tutorial and bad economy that CVs suffer from. To bring BBs  into check you need to make CVs viable again as a counter.  

 

 

 

In addition to this good post, I'd say BB Citadelling a CA is too easy in those tiers. I've just had a game where tirpitz citadelled me on 2 different occasions where I expected him to shoot at me and turned to avoid his salvos. Keep in mind I have both rudder shift mods. No luck.

[Sidian42]

Colorado and Izumo are beasts among their respective tiers, dunno why would you say they are weak. They can definitely carry agame.

 

AFAIK they have the lowest winrate and lowest damage of all BBs in their tiers. I carried a game in a Hipper once, but that doesn't mean the Hipper is a good ship or even a beast.

Although, i played the Izumo way before the buffs, when the difference between Iowa and Izumo was quite big.

 

Meanwhile even "Good" cruisers like the buffed Mogami can not do that, compared to Alabama, NCal, Amagi, Bismarck? Why even take her? No AA, Same damage potential as a BB but crappy survivability in comparison... If you need a scout or a damage dealer take Benson or a BB Instead.

 

Mogami cannot carry games? I carry a lot of games in my RN cruisers and i think the buffed Mogami is even better than an Edinburgh.

 

It is more difficult to be successful in a cruiser than in a battleship, but that is totally fine by me. In fact, that is one of the reasons why playing cruiser is so rewarding for me.

[RUSSIANBlAS]

Cruisers need a lot of ability and awareness to play well generally.

 

If you're compromised then you're likely going to be farmed by a BB if you're in a Cruiser. But a BB in a similar situation will likely survive and get another chance.

 

I think healing HE damage is overplayed. If there are two or more of you then they're not going to repair all that spam.

 

In fact that last bit reminds me on why I think HE spam is viable on BBs like the Scharn. If you're paired with cruisers then your target is going to burn whether they like it or not.

[Gnirf]

Main problem is that is nearly always is 5 BBs /side. True that some games like that is OK but not all.

[Capra76]

I have a question, what are cruisers actually for in this game?

 

What do they do?  What do they bring to the table that other classes can't do as well or better?

 

Aside from the consumables I honestly don't know.

[Mr_Mistery]

A cruiser, most of the time, will rely on HE and Fire damage to rack up the damage

 

not really if you use your brain and learn the AP shell incidence angle,you can kill any ship like BBs but i agreed as BB player this 5 BB per side is too much,2 BB,1CV and max 2 DD enough rest cruiser but skilled players not no skilled HE spammers(sorry for this but i have enough when i play my cruiser and what see, tmy team and enemy team cruisers see other cruisers and they think "omg this ship has 500mm armor all part cant pen only HE left" this really piss me of) and other do not treat it the cruiser and BB they are different . build for different reasons like cruiser build to figth cruisers not BBs and BBs build to figth BBs thats why the BBs gun penetration is so high and this make most overpen not always one kill salvos!

and the WG make this HE spam problem,big BB population,RNGesus citadels and now they dont want take responsibility or solve it

[BruceForce]

I think T9-T10 is where cruisers have the least problems. It is below where they struggle because lolpen from every angle (no armor to speak of) and no heal.

 

Give cruisers heal also at lower tiers!

[allufewig]

 

Aside from the consumables I honestly don't know.

 

In theory theyre the most flexible class, with weaponry, mobility and tools for basically every job. In practice, nothing. 

[Ryuuteimaru]

Cruisers are useless thee end.

[BillydSquid]

I have a question, what are cruisers actually for in this game?

 

What do they do?  What do they bring to the table that other classes can't do as well or better?

 

Aside from the consumables I honestly don't know.

 

Nothing.

 

Roon, I don't use it anymore, German BBs do everything better, it's a poor man's Moskva and Zao.

I'll play Zao because the long range sniping meta in the Yamato puts me into a coma. (My Yamato is specc'd for secondary, not the most efficient build, but frankly I don't care, sitting and snipping bow on is mind numbingly boring)

Minotaur is the only T10 which stands apart from the rest due to it's concealment, maneuverability, AP shells, smoke/ radar and rapid traverse and obscene rate of fire which actually makes it a match for DDs and allows it to survive the high tier sniping meta better than other CAs, it's basically a big gunboat DD. 

 

 

[ClappingLollies]

Cruisers are Ok now, but (and this is a big but) when you contantly have 4+ BB's aiming at you from different angles, there is not much you can do other than hide and try to use islands for cover. Most high tier maps are so open that you can't push in and help the DD's. Also the fact that some BB's have better consealment than some CA's is retarded. 

Yep, a Yamato can sneak up on a Moskva....

[Karasu_Browarszky]

Two things that most disappoint me about battleships and cruisers are these:

 

1. Battleships are too prone to fire damage.

2. Cruisers are too fragile.

 

I know the game is not a simulation, but what would be historically correct in terms of the above?

[Capra76]

Battleships are too prone to fire damage.

 

I'd say this is wrong, BB only suffer from fire damage because they don't take damage from other sources, if BB were regularly getting one-shorted by other ships they wouldn't give a damn about fire damage, it's the fact that BB are nearly immune to regular damage that makes fire feel like such a problem.

[Ubertron_X]

Cruisers should receive some healing skills at least down to tier 7 across the board. There's nothing like taking a lucky hit or double fire early in the game and having to linger on the brink of death and being a priority target for the reminder of that game.

 

Cruisers should be able to equip both hydro/AA boost or radar/AA boost to make them real jack of all trades.

 

Also reduce both BB vs CA citadel chance AND overpen chance (= more regular hits) and we are talking...

[EmilyFara]

[...]

1. Battleships are too prone to fire damage.

[...]

It is the same for all ships. The damage is a DOT that deals a percentage per tick. The difference is that BBs have so much hp so the DOT is higher per tick. But 4 fires on a DD would kill that one quite fast as well.

The difference is that a DD won't live long enough to get 4 fires applied to it. Same with cruisers.

[Seeigel]

Its really hard to balance.

You cant buff cruisers to much, they can already deal some real high damage (and not only form fires) and under the right conditions they can survive real long.

 

Of course, that random citadel while turning away is really frustrating with cruisers.

 

Fire is a big problem of BBs not because it deals so much damage, but because you can hit them so easily. Torpedos or citadels are a much bigger pain for my BB but it is much more difficult to score a hit on me than with some fast firing HE guns. Running in a well aimed torpedo wall is more or less game over.

[Ubertron_X]

Of course, that random citadel while turning away is really frustrating with cruisers.

 

The main problems with CA's fragility (at least for all captains with a minimum of skill) is not the random citadel while turning, it is the random citadels while (more or less correctly) angled. All evade skills in the world will not help you if RNG decides that you are about to eat a couple of citadels through your angled bow or stern.

 

CAs simply can not mitigate damage by skillful maneuvering, at least not a level they would need to in order to reduce their brittleness and bring them in line with other classes.

 

BBs can angle and use armor to be relatively save.

DDs can use stealth and be relatively save.

CAs can maneuvre all they way they want to, they will never ever be relatively save.

[Taliesn]

Two things that most disappoint me about battleships and cruisers are these:

 

1. Battleships are too prone to fire damage.

2. Cruisers are too fragile.

 

I know the game is not a simulation, but what would be historically correct in terms of the above?

 

I care very little about fires when on a BB. 

You can disengage, heal that damage and go back into the fight as good as new.

 

There is a point to be made about giving cruisers an extra slot for radar/AA/plane that would add to their versatility, but that's about it. They are not supposed to be able to outfight a BB (and in this game and under certain conditions they can) Let alone 4-5.

In real life I would expect a cruiser to lauch her torpedoes and run away if she meets a BB.

[lycea]

 

The main problems with CA's fragility (at least for all captains with a minimum of skill) is not the random citadel while turning, it is the random citadels while (more or less correctly) angled. All evade skills in the world will not help you if RNG decides that you are about to eat a couple of citadels through your angled bow or stern.

 

CAs simply can not mitigate damage by skillful maneuvering, at least not a level they would need to in order to reduce their brittleness and bring them in line with other classes.

 

BBs can angle and use armor to be relatively save.

DDs can use stealth and be relatively save.

CAs can maneuvre all they way they want to, they will never ever be relatively save.

 

^This 

 

plus the fact that cruisers shouldn't be frontline, though it happens all the time since battleships don't take the initiative.And in such situations you get focussed heavily since you are the closest target  

 

 

[SinkTheOthersNotMe]

OK, then just 1 BB hardcap per team and then I am willing to accept cruisers can't do much against a BB except by using torps...

 

BB too prone to fire: Yes, the BB that don't camp and try to help push have a big issue with fires, even with all the skills/modules needed -> and a BB trying to disengage by turning away under 15km = dead BB if there is a decent player on the opposing team, if trying to disengage by reversing then good luck too....

of course BB camping at 16km + have much less fire issues...

 

Cruisers: Too fragile given the current 5+ BB per team meta and if you want to perform well in a cruiser at high tier, then you have to be very cautious and spend quite some time at max range -> which of course means you are not efficient and just a support ship...

 

Sadly if a cruiser pushes with the DD -> most of the time the cruiser can indeed help sink red DD but ends up sunk too.

 

All this to say the current meta is weird but I adjusted to it by playing mainly cruisers these days

[Capra76]

They are not supposed to be able to outfight a BB

 

Why?

 

This is a game, why should one player be at a massive advantage over another purely due to the ship he's using, shouldn't the game be about skill?

 

Rock-paper-scissors seems to have fallen by the wayside everywhere else in the game so what's the justification for BB retaining their massive advantage over CA?