CV "mirror" MM

[Horin728]

So today I had a horrible time in my Midway, mainly because I kept running into CVs that were divisioned up with DMs and Minotaurs and that made me think - if the MM should be mirrored for CVs, shouldn't there be a detection for divisions? 

 

I mean seriously try to act against 2 full AA ships, there are no openings, no holes in the defense to put your planes in, especially for the Midway, which can't stack her squads up like the Hakuryu.

 

In a normal (non divisioned) game it's not usually a problem, since so few people spec for full AA - they'd be sacrificing combat capability in other games, but thanks to the division and mirror MM system, they can guarantee an oposing CV and have no drawbacks.

 

In TX matches, (excluding north thanks to its bases) there are usually 2 blobs of ships going for caps. It is hard enough to assault 2-3 ships in a cluster, but one of them being a full AA DM/Mino makes it impossible - and since there is one in each cluster, the Midway is quite useless (she can't even contest the air thanks to faster IJN fighters - they pick where they fight and they want to fight above the AA ships).

[Pekoe_Darjeeling]

And yet Midways is second after Hakuryu with 96k avg. dmg per battle for the last two weeks. It is also the worst ship by win rate with 46%.

[Namolis]

I think you make a fair point, but I can think of a couple of problems with mirroring divisions containing a CV specifically:

1) There aren't always that many T10 carriers to begin with, so this will make it extremely hard to get a game and

2) This would lead the CV with div mates to always have to face such a setup. Now; my feelings towards carriers in general being what they are and the fact that CVs seem to be able to end up with higher average damage than any other class - I don't think of it as a major problem, but still... It may in the end of the day make it very hard for CV mains to have fun playing the game with their mates, as bringing two friends will almost guarantee being the only one MM can match that CV-DM-Mino squad against.

[Horin728]

I can agree with the 1st point, the waiting time would be long, but right now? If I encounter this kind of division, it means that this is probably the last game of CVs I'd play for at least an hour to make sure I won't run into them again. The helplessness is awful.

 

The second point comes down to this: Right now, if you don't have a clan as a CV player and you run into this kind of division you are simply screwed (since the looking for division system is practically empty). Basically it's 3 people saying screw you for not having the same resources as us.

[El2aZeR]

And yet Midways is second after Hakuryu with 96k avg. dmg per battle for the last two weeks. It is also the worst ship by win rate with 46%.

 

Winrate is a stat that only tells you which CV is better thanks to mirrored MM. Average damage on the other hand shows mostly just how abysmal the average player skill is. Both of which are pretty much non-telling of the general performance of CVs.

 

As for CV + AA cruiser divs, this is a team game. Ask your team to focus the cruisers down (and they will usually oblige because, well, they're cruisers). Meanwhile focus on spotting and denying air strikes while killing the occasional isolated target until said cruisers are dealt with. It's not an impossible obstacle to overcome.

I can understand why you would want this to be changed, but personally I cannot bring myself to care all too much even as a CV player since the nature of random battles is mostly exactly that: random. You lose some, you win some and sometimes things are simply out of your control no matter how skilled you are or what you do.

 

Even if I could bring myself to care, I'd have no idea how to change this unless you want to remove divs altogether, which I'm sure no one wants.

[Horin728]

No amount of F3 asking for help has ever ended up in the AA cruiser death, since they know really well what they are doing - either they are sitting in smoke in case of the Minotaur or they hide behind islands and lob shells over them, so they can't become the focus of the team.

 

Personally I am quite incapable of that style of play - I find it boring just to sit behind a rock and wait for targets to pop up, while being generally annoying to the CV.

 

The solution would be to only allow divisioned up CVs to meet other divisioned up CVs... IF the CV population wasn't as screwed up as it is.

[Arrive_Alive]

totally agree. last 4 games yesterday i was matched against 3-ship divs, mostly cv+mino+DM/missouri. I asked my teams to get the mino down, but they couldn't do it. instead they ran in the same cap where the enemy div positioned themselves and they got wrecked by radar,cv drops and mino dps. I couldn't even give them any air support (full AA mino+dm is balanced).

 

none of these cvs were unicum gods..watched some poor drops and bad squad management. i wrecked their fighters when i had the chance but still no chance to win.

 

i'm okay with it when i get outplayed by enemy cvs but these guys weren't even far above average and still they can net easy wins due to massive AA support.

 

 

 

[tajj7]

Makes sense to me, the MM should at least try to match CV divisions. 

[Horin728]

totally agree. last 4 games yesterday i was matched against 3-ship divs, mostly cv+mino+DM/missouri. I asked my teams to get the mino down, but they couldn't do it. instead they ran in the same cap where the enemy div positioned themselves and they got wrecked by radar,cv drops and mino dps. I couldn't even give them any air support (full AA mino+dm is balanced).

 

none of these cvs were unicum gods..watched some poor drops and bad squad management. i wrecked their fighters when i had the chance but still no chance to win.

 

i'm okay with it when i get outplayed by enemy cvs but these guys weren't even far above average and still they can net easy wins due to massive AA support.

 

 

 

 

Precisely... I even enjoy being outplayed by an enemy CV, because I can learn from it. But learning that you simply can't do anything because 3 people decided to gang up on you... Well what is there to learn...

 

Makes sense to me, the MM should at least try to match CV divisions. 

 

My thought exactly, though I see the problem with CV population being as low as it is... Which is another problem entirely...

[Synth_FG]

See such a division in opposing team, 

1) use chat to ask my team to prioritise those 2 cruisers, 

2) use eyeballs and map to ensure my planes stay away from them in early phases of battle 

 

such a division is not totally game ending, 

 

a couple of aa speced Grozovoi's on the other hand will really ruin your day 

[AgarwaenME]

And yet Midways is second after Hakuryu with 96k avg. dmg per battle for the last two weeks. It is also the worst ship by win rate with 46%.

 

So clearly just raw average damage is a crap metric to use.

[SV_Kompresor]

Well it's not mirrored enough that's for sure.....Just had 2 saipans vs 2 rangers

[Horin728]

See such a division in opposing team, 

1) use chat to ask my team to prioritise those 2 cruisers, 

2) use eyeballs and map to ensure my planes stay away from them in early phases of battle 

 

such a division is not totally game ending, 

 

a couple of aa speced Grozovoi's on the other hand will really ruin your day 

 

1) is really unreliable in random battles. You can't rely on your team to do the important stuuf, you have to it by yourself (the excellent example is in Ichases preview of the Kidd)

 

2) is harder than you might think, since the TX meta is quite clustered and when there is only one or two cluster of ships with only DDs being alone (and good luck with your USN DB RNG) there are no ships that are not covered. Add that the germans have AA bundled with secondaries (for which 99% oh them go) and you have yourself a pain.

[G01ngToxicCommand0]

So today I had a horrible time in my Midway, mainly because I kept running into CVs that were divisioned up with DMs and Minotaurs and that made me think - if the MM should be mirrored for CVs, shouldn't there be a detection for divisions? 

 

I mean seriously try to act against 2 full AA ships, there are no openings, no holes in the defense to put your planes in, especially for the Midway, which can't stack her squads up like the Hakuryu.

 

In a normal (non divisioned) game it's not usually a problem, since so few people spec for full AA - they'd be sacrificing combat capability in other games, but thanks to the division and mirror MM system, they can guarantee an oposing CV and have no drawbacks.

 

In TX matches, (excluding north thanks to its bases) there are usually 2 blobs of ships going for caps. It is hard enough to assault 2-3 ships in a cluster, but one of them being a full AA DM/Mino makes it impossible - and since there is one in each cluster, the Midway is quite useless (she can't even contest the air thanks to faster IJN fighters - they pick where they fight and they want to fight above the AA ships).

 

My opinion on this matter is that Wargaming should make the same decision they made in WOT with regards to artillery: remove the CV class the ability to enter into division due to their higher potential to influence game outcome. A single CV without division mates will not have the same influence if the player is either super good or super bad and the team will not be punished so hard if the CV player is worse than the enemy team's is giving the team a better chance to defend itself from strike aircraft attack.

[Thracen]

Honestly, most games with top tier CVs come down to the skill of the CVs. Doesn't matter what ship I sail I am a spectator in CV games. AA ships are rare, 1 shouldn't spoil your match even if he is well positioned. To be honest if you end up with an extra BB for his AA cc you have an advantage in my book.

 

I like the flavour CVs add but for me they ruin games. How am I meant to DD when I can get perma spotted along with my torps. CVs ruin dds games and nobody says anything about it. Salt doesn't cover it, when I die to a CVs planes spotting me by accident on the way to a strike and I die? When you can be unwittingly killed by an enemy player the game is not balanced! Radar can be evaded or I can hide behind an island, planes you cannot run or hide from and if you, turtle in smoke he can torp you anyways or keep you bottled up until his team cleans you up, all the while spotting your torps out of the smoke.

 

THERE IS NO BALANCE, CAN ANYONE HERE ME? IS ANYONE THERE LISTENING?

[El2aZeR]

CVs ruin dds games and nobody says anything about it.

 

Because it is meant to be this way.

Besides, if you're in a position in which a CV can permaspot and/or kill you, YOU'RE doing something wrong, not a CV. A DD is not meant to be a solo warrior ship, in fact none of the classes in the game are.

[BadGene616]

Worse than a tX CV with 2 x tX ships is a Saipan with 2x full aa fitted t8 BBS.

 

Due to ship matching in mm it's rare this combination suffers by seeing t10.

[El2aZeR]

Personally I am quite incapable of that style of play - I find it boring just to sit behind a rock and wait for targets to pop up, while being generally annoying to the CV.

 

So you're rejecting a highly viable way of counterplay and would rather see others suffer for your personal gain? That's some BBaby level stuff right here.

 

remove the CV class the ability to enter into division due to their higher potential to influence game outcome.

 

That higher potential is in direct correlation to the average player skill, far more so than with any other class. Quite frankly this isn't a problem with CVs but with how abysmal the average player is right now (like with many problems in this game, really). Obviously if you enter any match with a highly skilled 3 div team you'll make the opposing CV's life harder while there is a high chance the enemy team will consist of nothing but potatoes.

 

This wouldn't nearly be as big of a problem as some people are making it out to be if the average player had some semblance of skill. Attempting to rectify that before removing a tool to teamplay in a TEAM game that is already sorely lacking of it should be obvious.

[Thracen]

 

Because it is meant to be this way.

Besides, if you're in a position in which a CV can permaspot and/or kill you, YOU'RE doing something wrong, not a CV. A DD is not meant to be a solo warrior ship, in fact none of the classes in the game are.

 

Oh dude seriously? dds are meant to screen, be out in front of the fleet, this means you are going to get plane spotted. Planes are faster than you, so short of running back to BBs and CCs there is nothing to be done. Did I even mention solo warrior antics? 

 

1:To be effective US and IJN dds have to torp, and they can't even among their own fleet if there are planes overhead.

2: 1 CV can do the job of 2 DDs in both damage and spotting, oh and they are the best AA force in the game too.

3: Tell me what a dd is meant to do when they are herded amongst their own bbs, they can't even smoke up and shoot, they will be out of range of the 12kms most can manage, and we all know how good IJN guns are.

4: How many AA ccs are in each CV match? are they specced with AA in mind? will they even pop their defensive fire for you?

 

How about you be constructive and tell me the role of a dd in CV games? They can't spot, torp or aggressively smoke. How else is a dd meant to earn exp or credits?

 

Back on topic my main point was that CVs good or bad, disproportionately effect the outcome of games, why should a single player on a team have mutiple times the potential impact on the match than the others?

[El2aZeR]

dds are meant to screen, be out in front of the fleet, this means you are going to get plane spotted.

 

What if I told you that it is possible to be out in front and still be close enough to run back into friendly AA cover when you spot planes on the horizon? And once a CV has finished up his strike you've got around 2-3 minutes of free reign (that's if he is on your flank in the first place).

Meanwhile you don't even need to spot most of the time because your own CV does it for you, freeing you up to do other things. If a CV is flying on your flank, do your team a favor and smoke them up, use your torps as area denial and provide additional AA cover.

 

As for IJN DDs, they've been long obsolete. And they're gonna stay that way if WG doesn't buff them meaningfully anytime soon.

[Thracen]

Ok thats if you have a big AA bubble to run too, relying on a random teammate not to ditch you, because ships move and good AA ccs do more than 30 knots and are known for running hard away from BBs, rightly so. Planes spotted on the horizon, try 8km? oh and it's not like that is much warning considering the speed of TX planes. Oh and being spotted for more than a second or two can be death, Gearings eat BB pens like no tomorrow and det flags are a must.

 

What other things? You've already said dds can't use smoke themselves or go out and torp reliably? I think you need to come out and say DDs are a defunct class when CVs are in the game which is entirely a point I'm trying to make!

 

As for 2-3 minutes clear time, that's if they don't stagger their drops or leave fighters, which you know are very common things?

 

With a good enemy cv, dds cannot cap, torp or smoke aggressively, relegating them to effectively being secondaries and "defensive torps" and smoke generators for capital ships. This would be fine for me, it really would, if you got rewarded for missing torps, smoking team mates and shooting at very, very little. But as we know, exp and credits are for caps and damage.

 

 

[G01ngToxicCommand0]

That higher potential is in direct correlation to the average player skill, far more so than with any other class. Quite frankly this isn't a problem with CVs but with how abysmal the average player is right now (like with many problems in this game, really). Obviously if you enter any match with a highly skilled 3 div team you'll make the opposing CV's life harder while there is a high chance the enemy team will consist of nothing but potatoes.

 

 

 

This wouldn't nearly be as big of a problem as some people are making it out to be if the average player had some semblance of skill. Attempting to rectify that before removing a tool to teamplay in a TEAM game that is already sorely lacking of it should be obvious.

 

Which is why the CV class needs to be balanced with the average players' skill level in mind and that requires requires the removal of the CVs ability to enter into divisions or severely nerfing their ability to single out and destroy DDs or any other class of ship for that matter, because the average player is playing lone wolf.

Team play is the exception not the rule and it will never change with the way WoWS is currently working and the audience it is targeted against which is low skill casual players that have no interest in nothing else than shooting guns and torpedos at whatever ship they can see in front of them.

Capping and defending objectives, while the primary game mechanics for winning, designed and stated as such, while also allowing a single class to completely deny the class that are designed to cap objectives through a mechanic that has no counterplay in a game enviroment with this kind of audience, is a bad decision.

CV as a class can only function as intended in a game enviroment where every team and every player are ideal games and ideal players, which obviously only happens on a blue moon i.e. so rarely that it is clear that the CV class is not suited to games played by the average gamer.

 

[G01ngToxicCommand0]

Honestly, most games with top tier CVs come down to the skill of the CVs. Doesn't matter what ship I sail I am a spectator in CV games. AA ships are rare, 1 shouldn't spoil your match even if he is well positioned. To be honest if you end up with an extra BB for his AA cc you have an advantage in my book.

 

I like the flavour CVs add but for me they ruin games. How am I meant to DD when I can get perma spotted along with my torps. CVs ruin dds games and nobody says anything about it. Salt doesn't cover it, when I die to a CVs planes spotting me by accident on the way to a strike and I die? When you can be unwittingly killed by an enemy player the game is not balanced! Radar can be evaded or I can hide behind an island, planes you cannot run or hide from and if you, turtle in smoke he can torp you anyways or keep you bottled up until his team cleans you up, all the while spotting your torps out of the smoke.

 

THERE IS NO BALANCE, CAN ANYONE HERE ME? IS ANYONE THERE LISTENING?

 

Not to mention that the way maps are designed as corridor maps a DD player will inevitable be spotted by CV squadrons at some point in the game. Wargaming wants the battles to be won by capping objectives but at the same time has a class of ships that can completely deny and counter the class which is designed to cap objectives the ability to cap without any counterplay possible.

The only times that CVs doesn't ruin a DDs game is when the CV player is a sub 45% winrate player is either AFK, late loader, botting or doing whatever harebrained actions that helps the enemy team more than his own. I stopped counting the amount of times Ihave or observed teammates or enemies either been spotted and sunk or rendered useless by a CV for the rest of the game while sailing in a DD or done so myself while playing CV. 

[Pekoe_Darjeeling]

I can understand why you would want this to be changed

 

Eh sorry? I just pointed out Midway is still second ship by dmg. dealt due to what OP said and that's all. I don't even play carriers apart form few low tiers I started years ago.

[El2aZeR]

Which is why the CV class needs to be balanced with the average players' skill level in mind

 

Seems to be what WG has in mind with buffing BBs over and over. Look where that's leading us to.

The game does NOT have to be balanced to cater to scrubs, because that's going to kill the game in the long run. Nothing has to be decided with the most stupid players in mind. Literally no successful competitive multiplayer game has ever done that.

Seriously, the whole notion that things have to be balanced this way is just laced with so much stupidity that you could fill the entire known universe with it.

 

As for 2-3 minutes clear time, that's if they don't stagger their drops or leave fighters, which you know are very common things?

 

It really isn't, because the average CV player is as dumb as the majority of the players in the game.

 

This would be fine for me, it really would, if you got rewarded for missing torps, smoking team mates and shooting at very, very little.

 

See, THIS is what's wrong, not CVs. That team-based actions are not rewarded in a TEAM game is hilarious.

And honestly, the value of a DD actually increases when there are CVs in a game because things like vision and area denial become much more important.