The game feels like its rigged.

[gangster9632]

Most of the times when I use a lot of signal flags the MM seems to be so bad that you don't have a chance. Use more flags get worse MM. I know the MM system is a patented formula to keep most players on around 50% wins ( its logical that WG may rig matches but the players cant). But when using lots of signal flags that goes into the wind and all crapkicks in. Sure shots seem much less effective and the MM horrible. Is it just my experience or do you also have that?

[bushwacker001]

Most of the times when I use a lot of signal flags the MM seems to be so bad that you don't have a chance. Use more flags get worse MM. I know the MM system is a patented formula to keep most players on around 50% wins ( its logical that WG may rig matches but the players cant). But when using lots of signal flags that goes into the wind and all crapkicks in. Sure shots seem much less effective and the MM horrible. Is it just my experience or do you also have that?

 

  Tin foil time.  I use 7/8 flags every battle on every ship....I am defying WG rigging attempts as are loads of far better players than me. 

[Nechrom]

Most of the times when I use a lot of signal flags the MM seems to be so bad that you don't have a chance. Use more flags get worse MM. I know the MM system is a patented formula to keep most players on around 50% wins ( its logical that WG may rig matches but the players cant). But when using lots of signal flags that goes into the wind and all crapkicks in. Sure shots seem much less effective and the MM horrible. Is it just my experience or do you also have that?

 

You know the patented formula called: "You and 23 random players in a battle together."

 

On my high tier premium ships I tend to always use lots of signals and it's just business as usual.

It might be that you get nervous and/or stressed when you use signals and do worse because of that, or it's just confirmation bias.

[Needy_Game]

I read some months ago that there is some correlation between your ships winrate and its place tier wise, the higher it is, the more likely you're going to be bottom tier.

 

This was a while a go, so things probably have changed, and I never noticed this relationship, as for the flags, I don't think it has anything to do with MM, it sounds a bit silly tbh

[gangster9632]

It sounds like you trust the MM and have no idea how far it goes. If you have a patented formula to arrange MM you need to have much data on players and performance so if you are a regular user of 7/8 flags they have to keep you on around 50% wins ( you cant be manipulated ) If you use it once in a while then its easy to kick in the bad rng and throw in some crappy MM.

[Tungstonid]

It sounds like you trust the MM and have no idea how far it goes. If you have a patented formula to arrange MM you need to have much data on players and performance so if you are a regular user of 7/8 flags they have to keep you on around 50% wins ( you cant be manipulated ) If you use it once in a while then its easy to kick in the bad rng and throw in some crappy MM.

 

 

I have asked this question several times now in this kind of threads, but again: What reason should WG have to keep players at 50% WR?

There is no real reason or evidence that speaks for WG rigging the MM, other than anecdotal evidence (aka "I once saw..."), cherry-picking/selective perception (aka "Everytime this and this happens to me" while ignoring that the opossite case happens just as often) or a wrongly used cause and effect relation.

But there is a ton of things that speak against WG doing such things:

- lots of players with (much) worse or better WR than 50%

- players with premium but bad WR and players without premium and good WR (in case of the "premium makes your WR higher" assumption)

- additional costs for WG (man power and equipment for programming and maintaining such an additional rigging system)

- no gain for WG because there is no relation between players losing/winning and buying premium account or premium ships and players who are better will rather leave the game when such a program tries to "balance" them

- WG can't influence the biggest RNG in this game which are the players themselves. Example: Giving some 40% WR afk bot a modest WR would be a bit conspicious, don't you think?

 

There might be more reason against it. You can try to argue against it but please give some actual evidence and no half-baked stories on which you base the try of a porous argumentation.

 

[gangster9632]

3 years of lies only to be undone by their own hands with the patent US 8425330 B1 filled by WarGaming in 2012 and published April 23, 2013 - Dynamic battle session matchmaking in a multiplayer game


There you have it folks, in WarGaming's own words:

 

As the player's win/loss ratio decreases, the player becomes more likely to be placed in battles having battle levels at the lower end of the allowable range, whereas as the player's win/loss ration increases, the player becomes more likely to be placed in battles having battle levels at the upper end of the allowable range. Thus, when a player has been repeatedly put into too many difficult battles, the balancing is done in favor of easier battle sessions, thereby encouraging the player by providing an easier game environment. Similarly, when the player has been repeatedly put into too many easy battles, the balancing is done in favor of harder battle sessions, thereby keeping the player challenged instead of letting the player become bored with easy games. A first possible algorithm is to divide the permissible battle levels evenly across a range from zero (0) to two (2), and place the vehicle into the battle level corresponding to the win/loss ratio, where any ratio greater than two (2) automatically results in the vehicle being placed in the highest possible battle level. Another possible algorithm is to increase the battle level by one (within the permissible range) for a vehicle each time a player wins a battle with that vehicle, and decrease the battle level by one (within the permissible range) each time a player loses a battle with that vehicle. If the battle level is already at the upper end of the range and the player wins the battle, the battle level may remain constant. Similarly, if the battle level is already at the lower end of the range and the player loses the battle, the battle level may remain constant.

The MM is rigged to force players in the 50% win ratio so wargaming can make more money out of the [edited]. "We dont want players to become bored with winning the game to easy".. SURE! my [edited]! Winning games is fun, getting matched in with [edited]over and over and over because your stats are to good isnt. F U warGAYming!



[Edit 16.05.2013]


I read a lot of feedback on this from various sources, many still believe that this is not proof, that WG included this into the patent just because they could and not because it was (or still is) used.

Let me ask you this: why would WG include this into their patent if it isn't or wasn't used in WoT?

Problem no.2 is that info regarding rigging, or "loaded dice", surfaced ever since the game was in Closed BETA, that was in 2010! How come something believed to be true (even fantasy by WG's claims) gets described in detail in a patent filed two years later?


The rigging is quite real, only people chose not to believe it because otherwise they wouldn't be in control of their own "fate" (gameplay), and people don't like thinking they're not in control.


Some insist that since this would be true, why they have above 55-60% + win ratio. For the same reason I do, good players understand the game and how to work it in their favor, also this system can be subverted by platooning, by playing in tiered companies, by playing in CW with other good players. Teamplay trumps randomness every time.

But! a single good player pitted with morons against a good team cannot win the battle for them.


Keep in mind that the average W/L for the entire EU server is well below 50% :

 

[/unquote]

 

Source:  http://wot-ro.blogspot.nl/2013/05/wots-matchmaker-is-rigged-proof.html

 

 

[bushwacker001]

It sounds like you trust the MM and have no idea how far it goes. If you have a patented formula to arrange MM you need to have much data on players and performance so if you are a regular user of 7/8 flags they have to keep you on around 50% wins ( you cant be manipulated ) If you use it once in a while then its easy to kick in the bad rng and throw in some crappy MM.

 

  Random average percentage in a game with equal numbers in each team IS 50% (give or take a very small amount for rare draws) WG don't need to manipulate anything to get an player average WR of 50%. 

[cracktrackflak]

 

 

I have asked this question several times now in this kind of threads, but again: What reason should WG have to keep players at 50% WR?

 

 

 

Keeping the majority of the playerbase within +/-5% of 50% is probably core to the whole online gaming model. That part is pure business logic and requires no tinfoil at all to accept.

 

You need a game thats attractive and encouraging to millions of noobs, potatos, tomatos et al. Therefore they have to be uplifted so that they feel a thrill of success. Conversely you cannot have experienced/obsessive players gaining huge advantage, as that would deter the first group. If you want to add an illusion of "skill" you can allow a few exceptional winners - this is exactly how professional gambling organisations such as casinos work, and the principles apply to any gaming system.

 

RNG and MM are WG's public methods of "flattening" the game, and there are almost certainly many more - perhaps undisclosed - techniques to increase the effect. When players feel that they detect "patterns" in the game management, then there may well be a basis of truth, however impossible to prove one way or another.

 

 

[Tungstonid]

What excately does your quoted patent have to do with your initial point?

 

You claimed that

A) the more flags you use on a ship the worse the MM gets. There is no mentioning of any kind of upgrades, modules, consumables or bonuses via signals and camos and therelike in this patent. How should it prove your point? All it says is that MM depends to certain degree on your win rate (Note: It doesn't says that players with high win rate will be placed low tier only but the chance to be low tier is higher).

B) WG tries to keep players at 50% WR. Sure, one could interpret that into the text of the patent. But do they actively influence you in your playstyle and how you play? No. They just increase the level of difficulty, yet you are very well able to influence the outcome of the battle with your actions. Even when out against ships 2 tiers higher.

[Prospect_b]

quote about the patent

 

So everyone playing a T8 cruiser should feel extremely flattered?...

[fallenkezef]

My Belfast runs 8 flags but mm has not changed

[Tungstonid]

 

Keeping the majority of the playerbase within +/-5% of 50% is probably core to the whole online gaming model. That part is pure business logic and requires no tinfoil at all to accept.

 

You need a game thats attractive and encouraging to millions of noobs, potatos, tomatos et al. Therefore they have to be uplifted so that they feel a thrill of success. Conversely you cannot have experienced/obsessive players gaining huge advantage, as that would deter the first group. If you want to add an illusion of "skill" you can allow a few exceptional winners - this is exactly how professional gambling organisations such as casinos work, and the principles apply to any gaming system.

 

RNG and MM are WG's public methods of "flattening" the game, and there are almost certainly many more - perhaps undisclosed - techniques to increase the effect. When players feel that they detect "patterns" in the game management, then there may well be a basis of truth, however impossible to prove one way or another.

 

 

 

Again, this is a wrong cause and effect relation. You say that the majority of players are at about 50% WR because WG decides to do so. I'd say that it is more likely that this establishes itself because we have a lot of random players, some bad, most of them around average and some good. Usually the WR of all players forms a Gausian distribution. In the spoiler is a picture from 2014, containing the player numbers per WR% for WoT.

 

 

Source

 

Most of the "noobs, potatoes and tomatoes" don't need any uplift in form of a better WR to keep playing. Just look around. Some of them are happy sailing around and looking at the landscape, others are just happy when their guns go BOOM. Even the worst player with some 40% WR, who lacks in every aspect of the game, will keep playing as long as it is fun for him. Most of them probably don't even know that you can have a look at your overall WR.

And a "obsessive playerbase that deters new players" is balanced by WG's RNG. The more RNG you have, the less effect the skill of the individual has. Why do you think some players cry about WoT and WoWS not being good games for competitive (e-sport) tournaments? At least compared to some FPS which almost exclusively are based on reflexes and skill.

 

And players "feeling a pattern" do by no means imply a basis of truth, because, as I said before, this is no more than anecdotal evidence and selective perception. Our brain is made to find patterns whereever possible as a result of evolutionary processes. So even if you take a totally random line of a thousand numbers from 0 to 9 and show it to any random person, this person will find a pattern somewhere.

[OldGrandad]

Most of the times when I use a lot of signal flags the MM seems to be so bad that you don't have a chance. Use more flags get worse MM. I know the MM system is a patented formula to keep most players on around 50% wins ( its logical that WG may rig matches but the players cant). But when using lots of signal flags that goes into the wind and all crapkicks in. Sure shots seem much less effective and the MM horrible. Is it just my experience or do you also have that?

 

You are as wide of the mark with this (and the quoted patent of old). Whatever you choose to pick that involves team games, you will invariably find a quote regarding 50% when it comes to average of talent/skill. Same in every sport that you can partake in, some are extremely skilful, some are good, some are average and of course, some are mind blowingly awful. As for flags, that means nothing, as it is your input and not the flags that has an influence. WG rigging the matches? Is your team being bribed to lose or are they (as a team) just not up to the job on the day? Keep wearing your colours, on the rigging of course......

[avenger121]

............ some are extremely skilful, some are good, some are average and of course, some are mind blowingly awful ............

 

...... and some are using aimbots to overcome their lack of skill.

[Muttley44]

Hi all just an observation.

 

If it is fully random then the chances of being on a good team or bad team is 50%. Also if there are even matched teams or not hopefully is 50%, perhaps in the latter example you influence is greater and could have an affect.

 

It is interesting that my win rate does not appear to be based on my skill or performance, although I am sure that my effort has helped win the games. When I was new and pretty useless my win rate was not much different. 

 

Although I do have it on great authority that there is a whole team of programmers tasked to p*ss only me off. (sarcasm alert)

 

The Dog

[Kruzenstern]

I have been using the flags from my Hood package yesterday and today. If I only took yesterday, I would believe in conspiracies too, I performed well to stellar and the team always lost, and when I had a bad match the fkn team won. All flags more or less wasted. Today otoh I got the best scores in the most flag-heavy battles, pretty much optimal flag use. If you ask me, it is totally random. It is just that randomness has a tendency to streaks, which can be frustrating.

[cherry2blost]

Most of the times when I use a lot of signal flags the MM seems to be so bad that you don't have a chance. Use more flags get worse MM. I know the MM system is a patented formula to keep most players on around 50% wins ( its logical that WG may rig matches but the players cant). But when using lots of signal flags that goes into the wind and all crapkicks in. Sure shots seem much less effective and the MM horrible. Is it just my experience or do you also have that?

 

Well judging by this fantastic explanation of the mechanics of WinRate, you seem to have answered your own question.... want a higher W/R ? ...... Don't mount any signals....... Simples !

[MrWastee]

[snip]

 

i mean to have read like half a year ago, that mm has certain mechanics, like f.e. if a certain number of matches toptier u'll be lowtier on next ones, no matter what. comes somehow down to the same for me, so nothing new there?

i'm fine with it, it keeps things spicy and gives not too good players also the chance to proceed without playing as like being a unicum...

in ranked it's another thing imo. that system just is, to put it polite, waaaay to random.

[Shirakami_Kon]

I have asked this question several times now in this kind of threads, but again: What reason should WG have to keep players at 50% WR?

 

What if it's not WG that keeps random average players at 50% or lower but other but other random players in the games you have? 

[Tungstonid]

 

What if it's not WG that keeps random average players at 50% or lower but other but other random players in the games you have? 

 

That's the point.

There is a difference between having an average WR because compared to other random players I am average and the great conspiracy that WG actively influences the WR of all (or certain) players.

The former is very likely and happens in every game where player skills play a role while the latter is nothing than an excuse players give themselves with no real evidence to base it on because they can't possibly be bad or "just" average or have bad luck.

[Ferry_25]

Rigged or not. We've been through this a lot of time. Consensus: we can never prove it either way. What I do know is, if you're mounting a lot of signals and the game turns out sh*t, it's more likely to stick in your "bad memory." I seldom mount flags or premium consumables. My reason isn't the "rigged hypothesis" but since the appearance of the ROFL stomp meta I found out the signals/ consumables aren't helping at all. That, as a matter of speaking, 100 xp bonus or surviving 10 seconds longer doesn't help me at all. Either I'm on the delivering side of the steamroll and I don't need the signals/ cons or at the receiving side. In the latter case I'd rather be pummeled out of my misery sooner than later and try my luck the next game. As soon as I'm convinced the "nail biting" meta has returned, I won't hesitate to mount all of them again. But for now my stash of all is ever growing bigger. But for now I feel like I'm doing ok-ish without them.

[AgarwaenME]

Most of the times when I use a lot of signal flags the MM seems to be so bad that you don't have a chance. Use more flags get worse MM. I know the MM system is a patented formula to keep most players on around 50% wins ( its logical that WG may rig matches but the players cant). But when using lots of signal flags that goes into the wind and all crapkicks in. Sure shots seem much less effective and the MM horrible. Is it just my experience or do you also have that?

 

What you think you "know" is wrong.

 

What you "feel" has little to nothing to do with what actually happens but is just a mix of different biases.

[AgarwaenME]

nonsense about patents

 

 

So answer this. If WG wanted to do this secretly, why would they patent it, thus making it public knowledge? You basicly demand to be able to accuse WG of lying about their MM by pointing to them being honest about something else. That's just completely stupid.

 

Nevermind how that patent has nothing whatsoever to do with your initial and even more ridiculous claim about losing games when you use rare signals or cammos, which means it's just a stupid red herring.

 

In fact if WG were using the MM to force your WR to be lower (as you seem to think) then adding another factor "if he's using signals" would result in a complete mess and might easily counter the initial claim.

 

Finally, you're well in the potato WR range, so if that patent was correct YOU WOULD BE WINNING MORE AND WG WOULD NOT MAKE YOU LOSE. So crying that WG makes you lose as you claim they try to not make you lose? That's how ridiculous an inflated ego can make some people.

 

You're literally arguing against your own claims.

 

/Ask yourself, what are patents actually for. Here's a tip "to make money from other people using it because we spent time and resources on something that we think we might recoup on licensing it". OK... not so much a hint as educating someone who seems ever so ignorant about simple economics.

 

[gangster9632]

So your a WG employé posing as a normal player. My stats are hidden, so a normal player cant see them. So get of your high and mighty horse and answer as a WG employé.