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Kyoukatsu

Balance Discussion for Competitive ( CW's / Tournament / Esports )

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[CGER_]
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Hey,
so this thread is about what WG ( the WoWS Team ) should or have to do to make the game more balanced and get more variety into the games.
At the moment competitive is played  at T8 Ships, but for quite some time it seems that there isn't any or nearly no variation at the shipsetup of the teams and the kind of strategies are mostly about sit in smokes & counter that.

 

I played quite some CW's, the MDIV League and now the League of the Sea. So i'm not a total noob but also not the most experienced player out there ;)
So i hope that we ( yeah we the community ) may give WG some ideas & impressions what the competitive part of the game needs to be successful in the future.

1. For me many shipsetups look like this:

2x Benson ( cause of the Navysmoke & good concealment ) - DD's need a better diversity in smoke balance. All have the same cooldown and only the durations varies, also the AA matters but yeah... ( I guess all Leagues- & Tournament-Rules caps the Bensonclass incl. Lo Yang to a max. of 2 Ships ) 

1x Chapayev ( 11.7km Radarrange 20sec ) cause f*** smoke - this ship is to important to be left open on the sea so it needs smoke and cause of the radar it can't be left behind somewhere. Also the 20sec are enough for BB's to shoot once and CA's & DD's 3-5 times. The New Orleans only got ~9.5km so it has to get closer and a higher chance of dying.

1-2x Kutuzov ( Long range, Smoke, nice dmg with IFHE and awesome AA ) likely the best and most valuable T8 CA.


1x Shokaku ( more Squads than Lexinton = better spotting ) we will see what the Enterprise will do, (p2w inc? ._. )

For the BB's it seems quite balanced at the moment, even if the IJN still don't have a premium T8 BB.

So out of the 9v9 Setup we have 5 ( with 2x Kutusov's even 6 Ships ) logged + 3 BB's we are at 8 ships ....so there is one more ship ( out of 12 other ships ) which you can choose but most of them won't do the job like the ones we already have.

2. The spawns
So far the Maps look quite fine and interesting but with the random spawn you have to deal with you can't really change the setup of your ships. Your strategy has to fit and be playable no matter if you have good or bad spawnpositions.


P.S.: I'm no native english speaker but i guess & hope that the problem I'm pointing at is unterstandable 
P.P.S.: Why isn't the Trainingroom & Replay still not included in the current state of the game? They work quite fine, add those features... you can still improve them later on....

Edited by Kyoukatsu

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[KLLCV]
Beta Tester
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Now even though i agree with your initial assessment that there should be diversity in high competitive play, there are a few obstacles that will limit what we (as in high competitive community) would love to see. 

 

1. Ship composition.

This topic took up the majority of your original post, and for good reason. Seeing hardly any diversity in 2 teams (or having a limited number of choice in competitive ships) is not the ideal position many of us would love to see in a competitive scene. A high diversity of capable ships should in theory lead to a high diversity in strategy and therefore increase the "fun" factor in watching/playing said games. 

As stated before, there are hick-ups in this "wish" of ours. This point has less to do with WG not willing to do it, but with seeing the game in a different light. 

Competitive players make up maybe 5-10% of the overall population (of any game). It is therefore unwise to balance a game around these select few "pro" players, as it would hamper the gameplay/"fun" factor of the other 90%, and the reasoning for this decision is simple, money. In its very core, WG is a company trying to make a living, it can not do this if it caters to only 10% of its player base, this means that any company will always base their results on the average player/person/statistic etc. The 90% people will always outweigh the 10% in terms of monetary weight, which means balancing is not done based on competitive play, but on the average statistic of how a ship/map/module/etc performs. The current meta in competitive play is a result of the average statistic, where a ship (Kutuzov is a good example) that has generated mediocre stats because of being a premium (which means a person with 0 battles can pay to play the ship and drag down its average) gets buffed because of its "seemingly" mediocre stats. This rule applies to a lot of premium ships, Tirpitz, Saipan etc etc.

Competitive will always have a select few favoured ships because of the inbalancing that is based on the average statistic instead of the competitive. 

 

With regards to smoke, the smoke heavy meta was favoured by a select few clans. The introduction of IFHE solidified the Kutuzov in the meta as a damage dealer/deterrent in favour of the Atago (which it replaced). Atago had a distinct advantage of doing good dmg over long ranges whilst still having the ability to disengage in battle. The introduction of IFHE (which buffed the Kutuzov from a firestarter to direct dmg dealer), combined with the change of roles of the CV from a dmg dealer (2-2-2) to a spotter (3-1-2) made the Atago unable to get into stealth (which was its survival gimmick) as a bomber could easily keep it spotted by staying in its concealment range, but outside its AA range. These 2 changes led to the use of the Kutuzov as a dmg dealer/defender (for attack, some still prefer an Atago) as it had the AA to deter CV's, and the survivability of a smoke (even though this trick does have its drawbacks). For smoke heavy clans, IFHE was a gift from god (WG) as it played straight into their hands, whereas clans that preferred to outflank/outmanoeuvre opponents were hampered in this tactic as a already fixed ship pick of smoke heavy teams got buffed considerably. All this led to a meta shift into smoke play. 

 

2. Map spawns. 

Changing map spawns is a tricky business and the reasoning for the random spawns is quite simple, the chance of picking the exact same lineup for both teams is near not big (this doesn't mean it wont happen). The reason why teams rarely pick the same setups, is because the maps arn't mirrored. A mirrored map will result in a majority of cases for the same tactics and therefore the same setups. Mirrored maps however are boring to play (mirrored, meaning u always play the same way from whichever side you are on) and for the few remaining realists here, it is far from realistic. Randomising is a surefire way for WG to wash his hands of inbalance of maps side's with regards to spawns (certain spawns are closer to certain caps/good positions, and is therefore unfair when a team gets to pick certain spawn positions to acquire early leads). 

 

Overall, i believe that there is no solution to the problems u aforementioned without doing substantial damage to either the game itself, or the income of WG as a company. This doesn't mean that i don't agree with you, i sure do. 

 

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[SCRUB]
[SCRUB]
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Competitive play should have an equal footing to begin with: All teams when forming their line-ups should get access to the same captains and ships (for the competitive play at least). Ofc having those  p2w   premium ships and   p2w-trained  experienced captains available in the training room is also mandatory for said training/exercises. 

 

Everything else is just "who buys the most advantages and sucks the least as a whole team + divine RNG Intervention". Ofc this does not only describe any competitive mode but the game as a whole.

 

 

 

P.P.S.: Why isn't the Trainingroom & Replay still not included in the current state of the game? They work quite fine, add those features... you can still improve them later on....

 

Easy there, we can read Hieroglyphs on Papyri  and mesopotamian clay-tablets in Cuneiform Inscription dating from thousands of years back.

 

.......... I cant say we are even able to read what has been written  2 minutes ago in the WG-Chat.

 

That might give you an idea about the root of the problem at hand ...

 

 

(btw: New record. In terms of gfx-technical, game design, balancing etc WG is "only lacking" behind decades. This is now a matter of thousands of years, even more than 10 k if we also include scratched symbols from the last Ice-Age or generally neolithic-stuff. We have not necessary an idea about their meaning or the intelligence behind it, but the same is true for any asinine patch and the corresponding patch-notes).

Edited by havaduck

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[TTTX]
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With regards to smoke, the smoke heavy meta was favoured by a select few clans. The introduction of IFHE solidified the Kutuzov in the meta as a damage dealer/deterrent in favour of the Atago (which it replaced). Atago had a distinct advantage of doing good dmg over long ranges whilst still having the ability to disengage in battle. The introduction of IFHE (which buffed the Kutuzov from a firestarter to direct dmg dealer), combined with the change of roles of the CV from a dmg dealer (2-2-2) to a spotter (3-1-2) made the Atago unable to get into stealth (which was its survival gimmick) as a bomber could easily keep it spotted by staying in its concealment range, but outside its AA range. These 2 changes led to the use of the Kutuzov as a dmg dealer/defender (for attack, some still prefer an Atago) as it had the AA to deter CV's, and the survivability of a smoke (even though this trick does have its drawbacks). For smoke heavy clans, IFHE was a gift from god (WG) as it played straight into their hands, whereas clans that preferred to outflank/outmanoeuvre opponents were hampered in this tactic as a already fixed ship pick of smoke heavy teams got buffed considerably. All this led to a meta shift into smoke play. 

 

The removal of Fubuki and long range torpedoes from tier 8 should be added as a reason for the increased smoke meta. It is harder to stay in smoke with a wave of torpedoes coming every 70s. No DD has the range currently to do this now without the high risk of losing their ship

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[CGER_]
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2. Map spawns. 

Changing map spawns is a tricky business and the reasoning for the random spawns is quite simple, the chance of picking the exact same lineup for both teams is near not big (this doesn't mean it wont happen). The reason why teams rarely pick the same setups, is because the maps arn't mirrored. A mirrored map will result in a majority of cases for the same tactics and therefore the same setups. Mirrored maps however are boring to play (mirrored, meaning u always play the same way from whichever side you are on) and for the few remaining realists here, it is far from realistic. Randomising is a surefire way for WG to wash his hands of inbalance of maps side's with regards to spawns (certain spawns are closer to certain caps/good positions, and is therefore unfair when a team gets to pick certain spawn positions to acquire early leads). 

 

Well some maps are nearly mirrored, like Neighbours, Trap, Haven, Shatter etc. but a solution for that maybe that if you have the spawn area marked players can position their ship whitin that area ( maybe with some adjustments ships are not allowed to spawn close to each other and / or divide the spawn area in smaller parts where every part has an amout of slots you can "fill up" with ships )

 

 

Overall, i believe that there is no solution to the problems u aforementioned without doing substantial damage to either the game itself, or the income of WG as a company. This doesn't mean that i don't agree with you, i sure do. 

 

But if you have a look into other genres alot of companies try to make their games more popular with the option of "good" & balanced competitive gameplay not just randomgames. Also WoWS ( even WoT ) are nearly without any competitors.

 

The removal of Fubuki and long range torpedoes from tier 8 should be added as a reason for the increased smoke meta. It is harder to stay in smoke with a wave of torpedoes coming every 70s. No DD has the range currently to do this now without the high risk of losing their ship

 

That's true the Kagero in her current shape can't make that job which the old fubuki was really good at. Less torps and range and plus that there is the bad AA and those guns.

 

So for me besides the spawn the major issue would be the smoke and the option to counter that.

All DD's got the same cooldown in their smoke even if they don't last the same time.

Idea for that would be that if DD's got less smoke time, reduce their cooldowns as well, especially the german DD's have a huge problem there.

Also the dispersion penalty for not having a target locked is huge ( told by Sub_Octavian in an Q&A in April " Not locking on a target doubles the dispersion ellipse. Locking allows shells to go over obstacles and track your target. Bonus from camouflage/modules is far less than penalty for not locking." ) so without radar shooting at smokecampers ( what we just have at the current meta ) is like lottery, and they don't get any penalty, I mean they can't spot you....a teammate is doing it for them.

 

Any other ideas how to overcome the mentioned problems?

Edited by Kyoukatsu

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