Jump to content
You need to play a total of 50 battles to post in this section.
FukushuNL

On BBs and Citadels...

20 comments in this topic

Recommended Posts

[BODEM]
Players
773 posts
6,948 battles

what would happen if Citadel damage done by battleships on cruisers would be lowered to 5k damage? What would happen between the rock paper scissor balance between the 3 classes? Would BBs get less dmg per round? would DDs feel more threatened by their natural enemy? Would cruiser capatains feel more bold to untertake stuff? Would this major change be more welcomed or hated by the community than the CV nerf on T4/5, the end of stealthshooting, etc? Would armageddon break loose? I think it would give cruiser captains more reason to move forward and try stuff. It's not like the few citadels it takes to kill a cruiser now are the only ones a BB will manage to hit on a CA/CL. They'd just need to hit the ship twice as much as the instakills they do now. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[WOTN]
Quality Poster
2,376 posts
17,664 battles

Depends on the battleship. The lower AP damage would be a massive relative buff to ships like the Scharnhorst with a lower relative AP alpha damage that would now have a massive advantage against ships like the Nagato or the Colorado with their slow firing but hard hitting guns. It would also be a relative buff to ships like the Hindenburg, Moskva, Henrietta, and Zao who will all have the citadel alpha potential above that of any battleship in this new system. In regards to damage per match, it's not likely to change much. Battleships get the majority of their damage per match mileage out of regular penetrations on other battleships.

  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[-GBF-]
Players
769 posts
3,620 battles

what would happen if Citadel damage done by battleships on cruisers would be lowered to 5k damage? What would happen between the rock paper scissor balance between the 3 classes? Would BBs get less dmg per round? would DDs feel more threatened by their natural enemy? Would cruiser capatains feel more bold to untertake stuff? Would this major change be more welcomed or hated by the community than the CV nerf on T4/5, the end of stealthshooting, etc? Would armageddon break loose? I think it would give cruiser captains more reason to move forward and try stuff. It's not like the few citadels it takes to kill a cruiser now are the only ones a BB will manage to hit on a CA/CL. They'd just need to hit the ship twice as much as the instakills they do now. 

 

You would get lots of mad BB driver's. You may also have to buff BB the accuracy of BB guns to compensate.

 

In short I don't really think such a change would work well.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[NWP]
Beta Tester
1,782 posts
16,853 battles

As a BB player: If we look into a reduced number of citadel hits *and* simultaneously into a reduced number of overpens we can talk.

 

In the end it is all about being able to deal and receive consistent damage, as spiked damage helps no one. Neither the BB which too often is at the full mercy of the RNG (will I land 3 citadels on that broadside CA or just 3 overpens?) nor the CA which is facing the same dilemma (will I receive 3 citadels from the BB if I start to turn now or just 3 overpens?).

  • Cool 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[DMAS]
Beta Tester
311 posts
2,638 battles

Personally I think the problem lays in BB armor/ cruiser pen.

IMO it's stupid as [edited]to be taught as a cruiser captain, to never show your broadside. While BB captain are able to show full broadside to cruiser/DD (gunboat) captain with little consequences.

Edited by rigawe

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[NWP]
Players
1,099 posts
9,937 battles

Personally I think the problem lays in BB armor/ cruiser pen.

IMO it's stupid as [edited]to be teach as a cruiser captain, to never show your broadside. While BB captain are able to show full broadside to cruiser/DD (gunboat) captain with little consequences.

What?! :teethhappy:

 

You do know that BBs have armour, yeah?

 

Or is this trolling and I've just bitten?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[DMAS]
Beta Tester
311 posts
2,638 battles

What?! :teethhappy:

 

You do know that BBs have armour, yeah?

 

Or is this trolling and I've just bitten?

 

I know they have, but as I said they have almost no drawback to show a full broadside to a cruiser.

Meanning they are able to bring all of their guns.

 

On the other hand you have cruiser, which absolutely cannot show broadside to any BB meaning less dpm. And even then can devastated by a BB.

 

So yeah not trolling, just introduce some sort of risk for BB in this situation.

Edited by rigawe

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[SCRUB]
Players
8,460 posts
13,036 battles

Personally I think the problem lays in BB armor/ cruiser pen.

IMO it's stupid as [edited]to be teach as a cruiser captain, to never show your broadside. While BB captain are able to show full broadside to cruiser/DD (gunboat) captain with little consequences.

 

Incorrect. The consequences are just not as instantanous.

 

I wouldn't advise any BB to show broadside to a cruiser (or a good number of DDs) if they like their HP. That's 10k damage every 10-15 seconds vs cruisers or 2-4k every 3-5 seconds vs gunboat DDs. Extrapolated to the typical 30 seconds BB reload, we're talking 20-45k a cruiser or gunboat DD can dish out in one BB reload cycle if they have a nice broadside to unload their dpm into.

 

And hightier cruisers can actually citadel BBs (only the German BBs and the Amagi at very close ranges are more or less immune to citadels) which would only increase their AP dpm considerably. Give a Hindenburg or Moskva a broadside @ ~10k in a Montana or Yamato and you can consider not dying a good trade.

  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Players
503 posts
1,954 battles

almost no drawback to show a full broadside to a cruiser.

This is just false, high tiers US CAs can melt a BB showing broadside, all cruisers can hit heavy volleys. I think Hindenburg can get up to 10k+ volleys with a pretty fast reload

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[DMAS]
Beta Tester
311 posts
2,638 battles

 

Incorrect. The consequences are just not as instantanous.

 

I wouldn't advise any BB to show broadside to a cruiser (or a good number of DDs) if they like their HP. That's 10k damage every 10-15 seconds vs cruisers or 2-4k every 3-5 seconds vs gunboat DDs. Extrapolated to the typical 30 seconds BB reload, we're talking 20-45k a cruiser or gunboat DD can dish out in one BB reload cycle if they have a nice broadside to unload their dpm into.

 

And hightier cruisers can actually citadel BBs (only the German BBs and the Amagi at very close ranges are more or less immune to citadels) which would only increase their AP dpm considerably. Give a Hindenburg or Moskva a broadside @ ~10k in a Montana or Yamato and you can consider not dying a good trade.

10K would include that the cruiser is using all his guns.

Sure they can do that that would make between 20k-30k every 30 sec (Obviously DM would be much higher). High tier BB have something like 70k + HP not including the heal. So BB would lose half their HP in the time they take to fire two salvo.

 

On the other hand they would need only 3-4 citadels to end the fight.

And in 1v1 fight at less than 10KM I highly doubt cruiser would won unless they can torp the BB.

 

And that is not considering long range fight where 10K volleys will be harder to make while RNG could still make multiple citadels possible.

Edited by rigawe

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[SCRUB]
Players
8,460 posts
13,036 battles

10K would include that the cruiser is using all his guns.

Sure they can do that that would make between 20k-30k every 30 sec (Obviously DM would be much higher). High tier BB have something like 70k + HP not including the heal. So BB would lose half their HP in the time they take to fire two salvo.

 

On the other hand they would need only 3-4 citadels to end the fight.

And in 1v1 fight at less than 10KM I highly doubt cruiser would won unless they can torp the BB.

 

You'd be surprised.

 

And no, it's not just 20-30k in 30 seconds. That's the lower spectrum of the scale (again, assuming the cruiser captain knows when and how to use AP) and that dpm can go much higher (give broadside to a Minotaur and see how fast 90k HP goes down to nothing). And it's not that hard timing your turns to bring all guns to bear in between a BBs reload phase before turning to dodge again.

 

But ambush tactics, pincering, overpen gambles and all that aside, my point was that your statement of BBs showing broadside to cruisers and alike being of no consequence is false. And 1vs1 comparisions of a BB vs a cruiser aren't the most viable groundwork for discussing game balance since BBs are supposed to counter cruisers and cruisers aren't supposed to fight BBs squarely in a fair 1vs1.

 

And therein lies the primary issue cruisers face at the moment. Current typical MM is 5 BBs, 3 CA/CLs and the rest DDs with occasionally a CV. Of course cruisers are going to have issues if their hardcounter outnumbers them.

Edited by Aotearas

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[DMAS]
Beta Tester
311 posts
2,638 battles

 

You'd be surprised.

 

And no, it's not just 20-30k in 30 seconds. That's the lower spectrum of the scale (again, assuming the cruiser captain knows when and how to use AP) and that dpm can go much higher (give broadside to a Minotaur and see how fast 90k HP goes down to nothing). And it's not that hard timing your turns to bring all guns to bear in between a BBs reload phase before turning to dodge again.

 

But ambush tactics, pincering, overpen gambles and all that aside, my point was that your statement of BBs showing broadside to cruisers and alike being of no consequence is false. And 1vs1 comparisions of a BB vs a cruiser aren't the most viable groundwork for discussing game balance since BBs are supposed to counter cruisers and cruisers aren't supposed to fight BBs squarely in a fair 1vs1.

 

And therein lies the primary issue cruisers face at the moment. Current typical MM is 5 BBs, 3 CA/CLs and the rest DDs with occasionally a CV. Of course cruisers are going to have issues if their hardcounter outnumbers them.

 

I used the number you gave me.

Sure minautor would go much higher. The ship is a dpm machine. But the minautor and the DM are the only one with machine guns.

Moskva, Edinburgh, Henry IV and Zao have between 10 and 12 sec reload.

 

And if the fight doesn't happen at short range the cruiser won't be able to put those number consistently.

 

I'm perfectly OK with cruiser not able to go against BB in a 1v1 situation. Problem is that every single tools that made cruiser able to bring something to a fight are given to BB.

Maybe at the beginning this game was a rock/ paper/ scissor game. But just like WOT with new lines this rule will become more and more blurred.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[SCRUB]
Players
8,460 posts
13,036 battles

 

I used the number you gave me.

Sure minautor would go much higher. The ship is a dpm machine. But the minautor and the DM are the only one with machine guns.

Moskva, Edinburgh, Henry IV and Zao have between 10 and 12 sec reload.

 

And if the fight doesn't happen at short range the cruiser won't be able to put those number consistently.

 

I'm perfectly OK with cruiser not able to go against BB in a 1v1 situation. Problem is that every single tools that made cruiser able to bring something to a fight are given to BB.

Maybe at the beginning this game was a rock/ paper/ scissor game. But just like WOT with new lines this rule will become more and more blurred.

 

That number was for tier VIII to X and thus including the lower AP dpm of non-tier X cruisers. And I think you're forgetting the Hindenburg.

 

Admittedly, those nasty numbers only realistically occur somewhat consistently at close range fights, but if we were talking long range fights BBs are much, MUCH less likely to hit a devastating volley on a cruiser if the latter actively dodging whilst the lower but more consistent HE dpm plus fires will reap their toll and I only need to read the uniquitious "HE OP, nurf naow!" BBaby whines on the forum to know how inconsequential that might be.

 

Simple matter of fact is:

Your statement about BBs not caring about broadside is false.

 

I agree on this game powercreeping and for the worse, but BBs aren't the be all end all as some people make them out to be. Balance and the current meta is a lot more complex than just BBs being incredibly powerful. The number of BBs compared to cruisers, the number of DDs that will keep cruisers spotted, etc. pp. all come together to paint that picture and singlemindedly trying to adress just one facet of that system will not yield satisfactory results but jsut snowball in other potentionally unwanted directions.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Players
728 posts

Personally I think the problem lays in BB armor/ cruiser pen.

IMO it's stupid as [edited]to be taught as a cruiser captain, to never show your broadside. While BB captain are able to show full broadside to cruiser/DD (gunboat) captain with little consequences.

 

At tier 8, my New Orleans, Mogami, Chapayev all get citadelled / deleted in 2 salvoes by all BB's from tier 6 to 10 regardless of distance, angling and dodging. With tier 9 an 10 BB's being particularly lethal.

 

At the moment high tier cruisers have to be so careful when pushing up early in a battle to spot / radar / destroy enemy DD's. You can get away with it with clever use of islands or smoke. Otherwise you're stuffed. If you turn to go into kiting mode you get smacked during the few seconds you're broadside. If you go in reverse you're a slow moving target and you get smacked anyway.

 

 

Of course, damage reduction to high tier citadel hits on cruisers would probably have to be balanced by nerfing HE / fire damage from cruisers to BB's. Or the damage reduction should be mild - 5% to start off with, maybe rising to 10%?

And it's something that should be applied only to the lesser performing cruisers. IE not to the Belfast, Flint, Kutuzov, Martel.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Players
1,100 posts
11,516 battles

Personally I think the problem lays in BB armor/ cruiser pen.

 

IMO it's stupid as [edited]to be taughtas a cruiser captain, to never show your broadside. While BB captain are able to show full broadside to cruiser/DD (gunboat) captain with little consequences.

 

If BB shows broadside do a cruiser it could loose lot of HP very fast. Obviosly when Cruiser player is clever enough do use AP.

z9zIAQl.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[DMAS]
Beta Tester
311 posts
2,638 battles

Obviously there is some wrong doing from me,

I tried again with NO to a fully broadside IOWA at less than 10 km, best volley was 2k.

 

So where do you shoot guys?

  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[SCRUB]
Players
8,460 posts
13,036 battles

Obviously there is some wrong doing from me,

I tried again with NO to a fully broadside IOWA at less than 10 km, best volley was 2k.

 

So where do you shoot guys?

 

Typically you want to shoot for the casemate/upper hull (the section above the mainbelt and just below the deck/superstructure) or either the bow or aft ends of the ship. If you have very good penetration (upgraded Baltimore, Des Moines, Roon, Hindenburg, Zao and Moskva ... not sure about HIV) I'd go for either under the turrets where you can either citadel or if not at least most of the time get normal penetrations. If you are either very close (~5km) or have a perfect broadside with the mentioned strong AP ships, you can also go for the midships waterline on ships like the Yamato/Montana to citadel them with regularity as the citadel is a fair bit above the waterline (Montana due ot be changed and have its citadel lowered soon though).

 

For your example, New Orleans doesn't have the super heavy AP shells yet so I'd go for upper hull and bow/aft end shots at ~10km. With a berfect broadside I'd go for under the turrets at ~5km but wouldn't expect many citadels.

 

 

You can also try and find the armour penetration values for each ship you have at that tier bracket and compare it against armour plating thickness to see where you can penetrate.

Edited by Aotearas
  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[SCRUB]
Beta Tester, In AlfaTesters
1,147 posts
16,279 battles

Obviously there is some wrong doing from me,

I tried again with NO to a fully broadside IOWA at less than 10 km, best volley was 2k.

 

So where do you shoot guys?

 

Below the turrets. The casemates are usually less armored than the citadel since in most cases they dont have the main beld armor overlapping them and they still count as cita hits. You can obliterate BB's with some nicely aimed AP salvos there.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Supertester
2,842 posts
4,770 battles

New Orleans can citadel broadside North Carolina at 10km, not sure about Iowa. Generally though, aim a bit higher on the hull, you will get decent damage.

 

On the flip side, a cruiser's "armour" against BBs is the rudder. I'm not denying random citadels are possible and annoying, but all the complaining comes across as memory bias to me. The randomness is part of the package but you can reduce the frequency significantly by keeping your wits about you and dodging, even at fairly close ranges.

 

BBs need to be able to occasionally deal massive damage, it's their thing and as a cruiser main I still find it satisfying to sometimes take a BB out and see big numbers come up. I wouldn't want it different even if it meant fewer overpens or an easier time for my cruisers. The gamble is part of the fun on both sides.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Beta Tester
3,552 posts
8,863 battles

While BB captain are able to show full broadside to cruiser/DD (gunboat) captain with little consequences.

Please send those broadside sailing New Mexicos/Colorados/Nagatos to my enemy teams.

Nothing like spamming up to 3k AP salvos into them every 4½s.

After some time they can start considering if they want to angle against my Gremlin or rest of the team.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

×