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tmGrunty

Hindenburg: manual AA vs AFT

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[LEWD]
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Which of those skills provides more for pure self defense purposes. I do know how AA auras work and that it is a dice roll if a plane is shot down and so on.

But as 1/3 of the AA damage is coming from the big guns (~150 out of 450) I was wondering if the extra damage on one of my auras is worth the loss of range on all auras.

So is there any theorycrafter out there who knows how to calculate that or has maybe even done the math before?

 

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[RUFL]
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Hey there,

 

I don't have Hindenburg yet, but I quickly looked at some numbers and believe that MAA is better for self-defense on her, if it applies in addition to the DPS bonus for designating a target instead of replacing it (see below).

 

Please tell me if I neglected something important. The probability per second to shoot down a plane is DPS value / Plane HP. For the mean number of planes shot down the time a plane squadron spends inside each respective AA aura (preferably before they drop their load) has to be considered. This is calculated by Distance / (Speed * 2.6) with distance given in meters and speed in knots. Here the distance would be AA Range - Drop Distance to account for the bombers dropping torpedoes at a certain distance from your ship. For comparison of the captain skills it is then sufficient to compare the cumulative DPS * Distance value for all AA auras.

 

Using a drop distance of 600 m (I don't know the exact torpedo arming time, so this value was estimated from one of the replays in Farazelleth's CV guide) and including the AA range upgrade in the second slot as well as 30% bonus damage from selecting a target we get the following values. The first value for MAA assumes that the 30% bonus applies on top of the MAA bonus in a multiplicative way, the second value assumes that the 30% bonus is simply increased to 100% for large caliber AA.

 

Base value: 2444

+MAA: 3274  (2891)

+AFT: 2905

 

For fully upgraded Hakuryu planes this corresponds to a mean value of 2.26 planes shot down without lvl4 AA skills, 3.03 (2.68) planes shot down using MAA and 2.69 planes shot down using AFT.

With DefAA active this increases to 6.48, 8.79 (7.72) and 7.69 planes, respectively. It seems that in the case that MAA stacks with the bonus for selecting a target it is clearly stronger for self defense against torpedo bombers, while MAA and AFT seem roughly equal when the MAA bonus replaces the target selection bonus. In that case I would prefer AFT, since more dice rolls = more consistency. Now the question is: can anyone shed some light on how the MAA bonus applies in detail?

 

  • Cool 1

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[JUNK]
[JUNK]
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AFT, You have enough DPS with AA Barrage so extending your AA Bubble is more important

 

edit: If you like to go Hydro instead of AA, then go with Manual AA instead

Edited by Affeks

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I agree that while using DefAA AFT is more beneficial for winning. Covering nearby allies with the panic effect can make a big difference. It can be argued that AFT has a bigger total impact even without DefAA due to overlapping AA auras of nearby ships. This is rather dependent on playstyle I guess. The numbers above only cover pure and immediate self-defense.

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[LEWD]
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Thank you. Something like this was exactly what I'm am looking for. An while I knew that manually selecting planes gives a bonus anyway, I did not know it was 30% and unfortunately I don't know if (how) it stacks with MAA.

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I remember the bonus being higher in previous patches (1 year ago or so), same as DefAA that once applied a x6 DPS multiplier. I took the current value from the WOWS wiki. It is not always 100% up to date, so take it with a grain of salt.

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[SINT]
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You can also go for the "cheap" captain skill version and take the 3-point BFT skill augmented with the AA flag. BFT now gives a 20% dmg bonus. In addition it helps your secondaries (although that is just a small bonus for a CA).

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I find I can be too busy to manualy click fighters. Especialy if I sm engaging in a knife fight. I prefer to go aft

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After a little correspondence with tmGrunty I have corrected the calculated AA effectiveness and calculated some number for the different T10 cruisers (well, also BBs but this obviously does not fit in here). I will consider a Hakuryu sending its torpedo bombers going for the drop in a straight line.

 

Attacking airplane: C6N1B (Hakuryu torpedo bomber)

Plane Speed: 164 knots

Plane HP: 2110 (2553 including module and skill)

Drop distance: 600 m (estimate based on replays in Farazelleth's CV guide)

 

Combining this with the respective AA gun range (in meters), the time inside the AA aura but before dropping torpedoes will be (Plane speed is given in knots):

(Time to Target) = [(AA range)*(Range modifier) - (Drop distance)]/(Plane Speed*2.6)

where the range modifier is 1.2 if either the AA range upgrade or AFT is used, 1.44 if both are being used.

 

This time then determines how often the AA gun in question will fire. The time between two damage rolls t' depends on gun caliber (as reported by LittleWhiteMouse http://forum.worldofwarships.com/index.php?/topic/91094-how-do-aa-guns-work/page__pid__2227343#entry2227343 thanks to tmGrunty for pointing this out):

< 25 mm: 0.1 s

25 - 84 mm: 0.5 s

> 84 mm: 5s

 

The number of damage rolls for one specific AA is then #Rolls = (Time to Target)/t', rounded down to the next integer. Next the probability for one damage roll to shoot down a plane has to be adressed. Since the damage numbers shown ingame are average values for one second, the damage of a single roll has to be scaled accordingly.

Example: the Hindenburg 105 mm guns deal an average damage of AvDam = 132.8 per second. This means they fire every 5 s for BurstDam = 664 damage.

 

This damage is then further modified by various multipliers like designating a target (1.3), DefAA (3 for gun caliber > 24 mm) and MFAA (2 for gun caliber > 85 mm).

The number of planes shot down by a single aura is then #Planes = (Damage modifier)*(Burst Dam)/(Plane HP).

Summation over all AA auras then gives the total planes shot down on average. For the T10 cruisers Plugging in the T10 cruisers' AA specs I get the following numbers:

 

  Base AA Mod / AFT Mod + AFT Mod + MFAA
Hindenburg 1.50 2.14 2.49 2.81
Des Moines 2.23 2.68 3.45 3.14
Moskva 1.12 1.25 1.71 1.82
Zao 1.25 1.41 1.93 2.04
Henri 0.80 0.87 1.22 1.36
Minotaur 2.30 3.04 3.56 3.94

 

While Defensive AA is active, those number look like this:

 

  Base AA Mod / AFT Mod + AFT Mod + MFAA
Hindenburg 4.27 6.10 7.09 8.13
Des Moines 6.57 7.87 10.12 9.35
Moskva 3.36 3.76 5.14 5.46
Zao 3.76 4.22 5.79 6.12
Henri 2.4 2.62 3.64 4.07

 

If you take a close look you will see, that the Range Upgrade/AFT generally does not equal a 20% increase in AA effectiveness. The reason for this is the finite number of damage rolls performed by each AA aura. This has the biggest impact on large caliber guns with theri 5s firing intervals. On the Zao for example the 100 mm guns fire twice for base configuration but also with the AA range mod installed. They only get a third shot when using both the AA range mod and AFT. On the Hindenburg on the other hand either AFT or the mod will give the 105 mm guns two shots, that cannot be further increased by using both. Of course this changes when a slower plane approaches or if it drops from further away. In the case of Zao a drop distance of 750 m increases the number of large caliber shots with each range increase (from 1 to 3), so I'd say the mod is still worth it. In the case of Hindenburg the drop distance at which AFT increases the 105 mm effectiveness (assuming the AA range mod is installed) would be more than 1100 m.

 

Hope this is interesting/helpful for some of you :honoring:

 

Edit: There is also an interesting reddit thread going on about this topic (

). It seems that the target designation multiplier is 1.3 after all. It also appears that the way the damage rolls are carried out by the game are more complex than what I use here. This is a systematic change that affects all ships, so the above numbers should still offer a certain ground for comparisons. I will look into it and try to improve my calculation.
Edited by Jagod

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[LEWD]
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Unfortunately your post is kinda obsolte as the different ticks for auras is apparentll not correct and the ticks are 140ms each for all auras.

The correct way how AA works is explained here: http://forum.worldofwarships.com/index.php?/topic/96327-dev-qa-about-the-game/page__pid__2368029#entry2368029 as answer to the 3rd question hidden in the spoilers.

I don't know how much that really changes what you posted here but I could imagine it could be quite a bit.

 

This was found as a result of a new thread on reddit regarding self-defense AA on T10 ships that can be found here: https://www.reddit.com/r/WorldOfWarships/comments/6box2w/comparison_of_selfdefense_aa_armament_at_t10/

Edited by tmGrunty

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[RUFL]
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I stumbled upon that thread just after posting here. I will see if I can use this to redo the math in the near future (that math formatting needs some interpreting). Those AA mechanics are quite elusive. Yes I expect the number to change, since discretization of damage rolls is less impactful without those 5 s fire intervals. Judging from a quick look at the QnA post it seems however, that the tick system itself rather manages how the number of destroyed planes will fluctuate around the mean value, but not the mean value itself. So the first numbers I posted here are likely closer to reality than my last post, that utilized the caliber dependent tick rates. I will look into the disclosed system in more detail and post some updated numbers soon.

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