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Spidyy

Japanese destroyers turret DPS getting worse over high tiers.

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Alpha Tester
182 posts
2,263 battles

Well, constating that japanese destroyers are not really loved for their guns. :p

 

It's a comparison between the last 3 destroyers of the japanese branche.

 

All 3 destroyers do the same amount of damage per shells.

 

- Fubuki can fire at 10rpm, with the rear turret firing only at 5 or 6 rpm. Just having a turret with a different firing speed than the others feels wrong. :p

With 3 base turrets, 66560 damages per minutes (2 turrets at 10rpm, one at 6 rpm)

With 3 upgraded turrets, 46080 damages per minutes (3 turrets at 6 rpm)

With 2 upgraded turrets, 30720 damages per minutes (2 turrets at 6 rpm)

- Kagerou fire at 5rpm with 3 turrets, can be downgraded to 2 turrets for more AA power.

With 3 turrets, 38400 damages per minutes (3 turrets at 5 rpm)

With 2 turrets, 25600 damages per minutes

- Shimakaze fire at 5rpm with 3 turrets (38400 dpm) with the same AA power than the upgraded Kagerou (2 turrets)

 

In comparison, the Benson (XIII) upgraded (4 turrets) do 56924 dpm, the Fletcher(IX) do 71155 dpm and the Gearing (X) do 128400 dpm, all with AA capabilities.

 

It would be really cool to see the tier IX and X IJN destroyers does more dpm than the tier XIII, and have a stable progression of the damages over the tiers like the US. It pains me to get higher in tier just to have stronger torpedoes and worst defense capabilities against small crafts. :(

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Alpha Tester
5,609 posts
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And how is turret rotation on higher tiers? Dps means nothing if you can't even aim.

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[ST-EU]
Supertest Coordinator
888 posts
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Well, that is because japanese destroyers are not supposed to engage in combat with US DDs

I know it is frustrating when you can't do anything against a US DD in a IJN DD (it happens to me too), but jap DDs in game are torpedo boats while american ones are truly DDs in their original meaning

*this meaning btw is Torpedo Boat Destroyer, thats where the word Destroyer comes from*

what I think however is while the difference in surface ballistic armament keeps being drastically different between IJN and USN in DDs, differences in torpedoes decrease as you climb the tiers up, nullifying the only advantage IJN DDs have against USN ones in armament, so maybe a slight balance to torpedoes in IJN at high tiers should be done (or balance the USN ones instead)

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Alpha Tester
182 posts
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And how is turret rotation on higher tiers? Dps means nothing if you can't even aim.

 

The IJN DDs turret speed is 45 sec for a 180° turn, meaning the same or worst than a BB, but can be greatly enhanced with captain skill and upgrade.

 

True that the torpedoes get equivalent at tier 10.

 

Shimakaze have 106951 torpedoe damage per minutes at a range of 15km or 94351 dpm at 20km, while Gearing have 71600 dpm at 16.5km, both with the same torpedoe speed. Even if the Gearing have a slightly less dpm than the Shimakaze, its gun DPS is still huge, with a higher range and an excellent rotation speed.

 

I'm okay to say that the US destroyers are anti-torpedoe boats, it explain their high detectability range, but the shimakaze do rather poorly compared to gearing as a torpedoe boat. For now, Gearing is far more advantageous to grind than Shimakaze.

Edited by Spidyy
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[ST-EU]
Supertest Coordinator
888 posts
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The IJN DDs turret speed is 45 sec for a 180° turn, meaning the same or worst than a BB, but can be greatly enhanced with captain skill and upgrade.

 

True that the torpedoes get equivalent at tier 10.

 

Shimakaze have 106951 torpedoe damage per minutes at a range of 15km or 94351 dpm at 20km, while Gearing have 71600 dpm at 16.5km, both with the same torpedoe speed. Even if the Gearing have a slightly less dpm than the Shimakaze, its gun DPS is still huge, with a higher range and an excellent rotation speed.

 

I'm okay to say that the US destroyers are anti-torpedoe boats, it explain their high detectability range, but the shimakaze do rather poorly compared to gearing as a torpedoe boat. For now, Gearing is far more advantageous to grind than Shimakaze.

 

Totally agree, that's why I favour a slight compensation for Kagerou and Shimakaze, since the difference between them and their USN equivalents (Fletcher and Gearing) does not compare fairly enough, especially in Shimakaze's case

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Alpha Tester
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Big up, because I really have this issue to heart. :p

 

On the fubuki, the nerf of the third turret make the last upgrade less deterrent.

Edited by Spidyy

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Alpha Tester
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In comparison, the Benson (XIII) upgraded (4 turrets) do 56924 dpm, the Fletcher(IX) do 71155 dpm and the Gearing (X) do 128400 dpm, all with AA capabilities.

 

But their "national peculiarity" makes their detection range bigger than their torpedo range, making it fair. Oh, wait...

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Alpha Tester
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IJN dds could use some change thats for sure. long range torpedos runs are pretty much useless since the targeted ship only has to do a slight course correction and your torpedos will miss.

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[GAMUS]
Weekend Tester
233 posts

Agree with OP. Not reason for choosing Shimakaze instead of Gearing at the moment.

Also, if the game is trying to represent the national peculiarities, early WWII US torpedoes should have a dud rate of 80%, at least. :)

Edited by sunday

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Beta Tester
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IJN dds could use some change thats for sure. long range torpedos runs are pretty much useless since the targeted ship only has to do a slight course correction and your torpedos will miss.

 

Maybe have the torpedo wake removed from the higher tier IJN torpedoes, reducing the range they can be spotted by a huge margin to make them somewhat useful.

Since their torpedoes used oxygen somehow for propelling the torpedoes, which didn't leave a wake.. well, tiny one from the water having to move out of the way of the torpedo but that gets absorbed in natural waves caused by the sea currents.

Edited by W4lt3r
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[GAMUS]
Weekend Tester
233 posts

 

Maybe have the torpedo wake removed from the higher tier IJN torpedoes, reducing the range they can be spotted by a huge margin to make them somewhat useful.

Since their torpedoes used oxygen somehow for propelling the torpedoes, which didn't leave a wake.. well, tiny one from the water having to move out of the way of the torpedo but that gets absorbed in natural waves caused by the sea currents.

 

That would be a good way to balance the lack of attraction of IJN ships. I like it.

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Alpha Tester
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Agree with OP. Not reason for choosing Shimakaze instead of Gearing at the moment.

 

The worst part, IMO, is that there is no reason for choosing Gearing instead of Fletcher at the moment.

 

About torpedoes: This patch buffed acquisition range for all ships, so now everybody can spot incoming torpedoes from ~2.7km away, making them useless after the 8km range, unless the target is really bad, distracted, has really bad luck with the spread or is in the middle of a maneuver with the rudder at max. In less than 6km, you'll be one/two shotted by the average BB/CA player.

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Alpha Tester
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Just reducing the detection range of IJN high tier torp would make them more appealing. But having them totally disappear since they are Oxygen would make them much too powerfull.

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Alpha Tester
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even removing detection of torpedos doesnt matter. someone will have to go in a continuess straight line in order for torpedos to hit at 8km+ range and right now under that range the turrets are useless

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Alpha Tester
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Just reducing the detection range of IJN high tier torp would make them more appealing.

 

  Reverting the increased acquisition range to the last version will fix it.

 

even removing detection of torpedos doesnt matter. someone will have to go in a continuess straight line in order for torpedos to hit at 8km+ range and right now under that range the turrets are useless

 

That would be OP as [edited]mate. I hit a lot against targets in the 8-10 km range, isn't hard once you get used to the game. Well, I used to hit, now they see the torpedoes form 2.7km away and just evade them, getting one  hit if I'm lucky with the spread.

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[OILUP]
Beta Tester
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And how is turret rotation on higher tiers? Dps means nothing if you can't even aim.

 

Dude, higher tier my [edited]. As I shifted from a tier 4 Isokaze to a tier 5 Minekaze I noticed that I can't aim the guns... at all.

 

It's absolutely ridiculous how slow the guns rotate. Slower than a BB? Damn right. The guns can't even keep up rotating at a Cruiser 5km away so I can give it the death-blow, even though I'm going in a straight line.

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[GURU]
Alpha Tester
725 posts
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They pretty much nerfed the IJN DD's to death in the latest patch, tier 6 and up are unplayable with the bigger detection range on torps and the ridiculous rotation speed on the guns.

Even with the bigger detection range and the shitty range on their torps every USN DD will outclass the IJN on the higher tiers because in a IJN you can't finish off your target and in a USN you can.

Edited by Broevaharo

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Alpha Tester
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US torps have more chance to hit as they are fired at close range too.

 

Give us the stealth of Oxygen torps!

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[CULMY]
Alpha Tester
142 posts

Agree with you guys, IJN oxygen torpedoes should have lower detection range than any USN equivalent

Also IJN DDs slow turret traverse (45s on Shimakaze vs 7.2s on Gearing) as well as rate of fire / dmg per shell ratio is really really bad. IJN DD buff is needed or very few dedicated players will play IJN DD line.

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[GURU]
Alpha Tester
725 posts
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Agree with you guys, IJN oxygen torpedoes should have lower detection range than any USN equivalent

Also IJN DDs slow turret traverse (45s on Shimakaze vs 7.2s on Gearing) as well as rate of fire / dmg per shell ratio is really really bad. IJN DD buff is needed or very few dedicated players will play IJN DD line.

 

I play them to test them but kicking your head against a brick wall is more fun then playing IJN DD at the moment :trollface:

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Alpha Tester
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I play them to test them but kicking your head against a brick wall is more fun then playing IJN DD at the moment :trollface:

 

They are a bit less frustrating than tier 2-7 US DDs though.

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[FAITH]
Alpha Tester
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I agree with the most of you. The IJN dds need some maje buff regarding torpedo speed, range and ROF if they are to be balanced with their amaerican tiers. I just reached Mutsuki, but that's the last IJN dd for me until they get a buff. until then i will go with the american ones - if you can't beat them, join them;-)

 

Also. As a BB player, I really think all dds in general should be nerfed regarding visibility. 

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Alpha Tester
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Visibility should not be an issue, if you have one or more carriers in your group, ask them to scout the DDs with their fighter planes. You too have a nasty scout plane that can spot a DD and piss him off rather easily, even if its movements are quite random. DD can spot other DDs. Have a US DD escort you when you are attacking and he will spot the other DD for you, they won't be able to attack you from too close.

 

Tonight, I did an interresting battle of 3 tier 7-8 IJN DD in division + an Amagi vs 4 tier 6-7 cruisers and 2 fuso. By using the low visibility, the DD could send torps and stay quite out of reach from cruisers, spotted the cruisers for the Amagi and we won by loosing only one DD. (me...)

 

The guys didn't used their recon planes and didn't had a carrier. If they used them or had a carrier, we definitely wouldn't have won it, just spotted and shredded to piece.

 

A bunch of BBs can't really win against IJN DDs, but a balanced team can take them out anytime while avoiding the torpedoes.

 

Anyway, the DD become useless in those situations when a team is balanced and do a good work using scout planes and CVs.

 

(Also, god knows the number of time I got oneshot by a stray AP shell from an enemy fuso or higher BB at 12km or more. Wasn't there some "overpenetration" mechanics long ago for close range engagements? Could be nice to have an equivalent for long range shots instead. :( )

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Alpha Tester
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Also, god knows the number of time I got oneshot by a stray AP shell from an enemy fuso or higher BB at 12km or more. Wasn't there some "overpenetration" mechanics long ago for close range engagements?

 

DDs are made of citadel now.

 

If you carefully read all the torpedo/smoke threads, new BB players always recommend to other new BB players AP Vs DDs, "since is always 1 hit, not like HE who needs 2 or 3". DDs don't take 3 digit damage from AP anymore.

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