Calling Cruiser Captains! A Question...

[Drunken_Jedi]

Just a simple question really guys. Given the recent changes to stealth firing, I'm now questioning the value of the concealment module for the Tier VIII and upwards ships over the relatively new rudder shift module (for double rudder shift). 

 

Previously, I always took concealment. Allowing for a nice stealth fire window, however. Those days are gone, and now we're likely to be lit up for everyone to see for absolutely miles. Given this is the case, and the time it takes you to fall off detection (unlikely given the higher RoF of CA/CL guns) is equipping the concealment module a wasted slot?

 

I ask this, because the name of the game for cruisers is learning to juke and dodge out of the way of enemy shells at range to reduce potential damage. At least, this is how I'm playing now given the insane popularity of BB's who can one shot me in a single salvo.

 

Would you agree this is the way to go? Or do you still hold value in the reduced detection allowing you to reposition unseen? I think this is especially relevant to the Atago with something stupid like 9.1km detection with CE commander skill and the concealment module, however... say I'm sailing in my Hipper/Prinz Eugen which still has 11km detection with a full stealth build it doesn't seem viable at all.

 

Discuss!

[Blitzkrieguk]

No it's not. Because all that will happen is you will extend the range you're spotted and killed at. CE will grant you more survivability as you're getting spotted later.

Also the Hipper/Eugen is trash tier. People stop firing at RN cruisers just to kek across them.

[Mucker]

Not being seen an thus not being shot at is IMO preferable to getting shot at an then dodging the shells, which is way to much RNG dependend, i.e. out of your control.

[CleverViking]

Depends, on Ibuki I've dropped CM for more rudder shift since imo Ibuki's whole role is to annoy the living daylight out of BBs by setting fires to them from 15km+ and dodging their return salvos while laughing maniacally. 

 

However I still like full concealment build as it allows you to dictate the engagement more often so that when they turn their guns toward you, you are already turned away/behind an island. It's also good for CL/CAs that like to push DDs like Takao/Atago. Another pro for full concealment is that it makes it easier to enter stealth when you really need it. I do think that concealment has lost a bit of its value though, maybe if it got a buff where you entered stealth a couple of seconds faster or something (though that would probably make it a must pick and way too OP)

[Drunken_Jedi]

Depends, on Ibuki I've dropped CM for more rudder shift since imo Ibuki's whole role is to annoy the living daylight out of BBs by setting fires to them from 15km+ and dodging their return salvos while laughing maniacally. 

 

However I still like full concealment build as it allows you to dictate the engagement more often so that when they turn their guns toward you, you are already turned away/behind an island. It's also good for CL/CAs that like to push DDs like Takao/Atago. Another pro for full concealment is that it makes it easier to enter stealth when you really need it. I do think that concealment has lost a bit of its value though, maybe if it got a buff where you entered stealth a couple of seconds faster or something (though that would probably make it a must pick and way too OP)

 

 

This is similar to my lines of thinking. Obviously for ships which have troll levels of stealth for their class (Atago) it's worth it. But the Eugen/Hipper has quite high detectability anyhow, with a sluggish rudder shift to boot for a cruiser (to me anyway, but the IJN CA's excel in that area). I might experiment a little to be honest, the stealth fire alterations really altered the way I play my cruisers.

[Xevious_Red]

Mostly take stealth.

With RN can sneak closer to set up aggressive smoke.

IJN can stealth torp with it

US can use it to sneak up to radar unseen

RU means you can radar before being spotted

DE its more so you can drop into stealth if needed rather than being perma spotted.

 

RU DD its great on though

[Drunken_Jedi]

Fair enough, guess it's still the go to module still at the moment. Still really trying to adjust to this stealth fire nerf, it's so insane that BB's were already King of the oceans and then Wargaming in their wisdom makes a massive mechanic change which does nothing but benefit BB's! 

 

Mr Spock would not be impressed with their "logic".

[chazwozza]

Also CE gives a bonus to not being hit now i thought

[hgbn_dk]

Concealment is still god... Gives you a better chance to fade away if you get surprised of more enemies than you can deal with. Also very useful on BB's  to fade away between shots

[CleverViking]

Also CE gives a bonus to not being hit now i thought

 

More dispersion can actually make it harder to dodge an entire salvo though.

[Nechrom]

The only ship I use the rudder mod on is the Prinz Eugen, because it really needs it and has awful concealment even with the concealment mod.

[lameoll]

 

More dispersion can actually make it harder to dodge an entire salvo though.

 

mye how manny times u do not have where u dodge a salvo except for 1 stray shot that proceeds to plunge your citadel :X

[txtspeak]

The concealment module is invaluble in the Des Moines.

the closer you can get to the enemy, the better.

the smaller window and enemy DD has to spot you and avoid your radar

the easier it is to catch another ship broadside (Trust me, a Des Moines can HUMILIATE a Kurrywurst or a Yamato if he catches you broadside at about 10km)

 

so I'd say its still worth it at least on this ship

[The_White_Whale]

 

 

More dispersion can actually make it harder to dodge an entire salvo though.

 

This, a single hit in a RN cruiser can be devastating and I would rather have a better chance to dodge rather then being clipped by a nuclear shotgun.

[VC381]

For what it's worth I love that new rudder shift module, but it depends on what you want to do and how you like to play. Basically think of how it combos with the rest of the ship. If the turning circle is awful anyway buffing the rudder shift won't help that much, but if the concealment is bad anyway then making it slightly better isn't ideal either. The way I run it is rudder shift on all USN cruisers but with the propulsion modification in the other slot (so no double rudder shift). The reason for this is twofold. Firstly, -20% stacked on the -40% is really bad return on investment, usually less than 1 second additional gain. Secondly, if you're brawling and helping at caps changing speed is just as useful as changing direction for dodging, and having the super-boost to move back and forth in smoke (assuming friendly helpful DDs) will save your a** from torps more times than you can count.

 

My summary would be:

 

long range ship with bad concealment - stack rudder shifts (German and Soviet T9+)

stealthy/ambush ship or horrible turning anyway - usual concealment build (IJN + RN + Chapaev)

agile ship that prefers close range - propulsion + rudder shift (USN, also Kutuzov for smoke shenanigans)

[Chaos_Umbra]

I went Concealment on my IJN Cruisers, but have gone full rudder shift on the New Orleans which is down to 3.4s which makes dodging BBs much easier and easier to rush DD smokes as torps are no problem.

[chazwozza]

Eugen is 11.5 all inclusive so still not to bad

[Babykim]

I would not invest in stealth for Moskva and Hindenburg, and take the rudder instead. Des Moins and Zao would get the steath.

[22cm]

5 BBs per team per game means there will be one on each corner of the map. I ll take the camo.

[Kutfroat]

i use improved propulsion and the 40% rudder mod on new orleans and baltimore (will use it on des moines when i finished grinding the 20 million credits...) instead of concealment, because the "stealthfire fix" doesnt care if your initial concealment is 9 or 10 km. as soon as you use your guns, your visible on the whole map, and you see a 4-5 pop up next to that little yellow crosshair over your cruiser...but with propulsion and rudder shift mod you can fake to commit to a turn way better and dodge. in my opinion, if you need that extra km of concealment to hide from a bb, you are allready out of position...in the current state of the game. 

[Gnirf]

I tried not to use CE on Donskoi, but changed after a while, as she was seen from moon. But the value of CE also increases in match when there are fewer opponents, and you more want to choose if you want to be not visible. With US BBs being very stealthy it is also a sort of necessity to be as low as possible in the cruisers. Also with the new dispersion bonus it is also beneficial, even if I do not have the maths behind, would be interesting to see.

[bouncer8409]

I am testing rudder shift instead of CE on Zao, i am getting some good results so far. I use 18k range and after being spotted kite away and dodge return fire while burning enemy. 

[walter3kurtz]

For cruisers I would not consider anything else than concealment (the module and the skill). Some exceptions maybe. The reason is that you need to be able to move undetected. You're not a VMF destroyer that's always firing.

[VC381]

For cruisers I would not consider anything else than concealment (the module and the skill). Some exceptions maybe. The reason is that you need to be able to move undetected. You're not a VMF destroyer that's always firing.

 

All T8+ cruisers have reloads way shorter than the detectability bloom time. If you're waiting to fade to stealth and fire again you're cutting your damage output by half or more in some ships. Moving undetected can be helpful but you have islands to help with that. Drawing fire deliberately and wasting enemy BB time and shells as they try (and fail) to tag your wiggly tush while you're still doing return damage is arguably far more useful to the whole team.

[walter3kurtz]

 

All T8+ cruisers have reloads way shorter than the detectability bloom time. If you're waiting to fade to stealth and fire again you're cutting your damage output by half or more in some ships. Moving undetected can be helpful but you have islands to help with that. Drawing fire deliberately and wasting enemy BB time and shells as they try (and fail) to tag your wiggly tush while you're still doing return damage is arguably far more useful to the whole team.

 

Each to his own but IMO concealment is the single most important stat in the game. Improving it gives you the huge advantage of choosing where to engage and where to disengage. You're no good to your team dead.