Ultra-god-tier AAs and carriers

[TommyScaletta]

Guten Tag

 

As most of you know, there are some ships that are untouchable for any CV-namely Des Moines, Minotaur, Neptune, (Hindenburg) and pretty much everything with defensive AA at higher tiers.

 

I think that no (lonely) ship should be able to single-handedly wreck a carrier.

 

So, I'd generally nerf the AA (especially in higher tiers since there is no ship with really bad AA). Not to a point where even a DM won't shoot down a single plane, instead to a level where a T10 CV can attack a lonely DM without getting his planes rekt in less than 5 seconds.

 

Also, I'd rework defensive fire since that one is my biggest concern.

The manority of ships at T10 can equip defensive fire.

But defensive fire boosts good AA (or even god-tier AA in case of DM) to a completely new level.

 

My suggestion:

1. When defensive fire is activated, the average damage output of all AA guns that are affected go down to 60% of their original value.

2. When activated, accuracy of incoming planes slowly gets reduced.

 

Yeah, I got nothing more to say.

 

Have a nice day.

 

 

[G01ngToxicCommand0]

[edited]

[Isalani]

no (lonely) ship should be able to single-handedly wreck a carrier

 

But your CV SHOULD be able to single-handedly wreck every other ship yes?

Sounds fair...

[TommyScaletta]

quoted post removed

 

Everywhere.

 

 

But your CV SHOULD be able to single-handedly wreck every other ship yes?

Sounds fair...

 

No. Take this example:

 

There is an enemy Des Moines with defensive fire driving around alone at C.

 

Right now, you would immediately forget about attacking it since it is a Des Moines.

Assuming AA was nerfed and defensive fire wouldn't make AA overpowered on every ship, you would be able to attack it.

I didn't say nerf the AA to a level where it becomes totally useless, just nerf it to a level where lonely ships can be attacked.

Des Moines would retain very good AA, so attacking it would come at the cost of some planes, not all squadrons you were attacking with.

[Spellfire40]

 

Who Needs Def fire?

Thogh if i pay 8 Capain Points for an enemy i only see every 5 to 10 games id like to see an efect.

Also if you dont have laserarcs or smoke or torps and spec AA as a Fleet escort  def fire IS fine (for cruisers) If they still come for you...

[22cm]

[edited]

[22cm]

I m gonna quote myself here:

"The CV  problem is the bad design of CVs as a class, because they can hard-counter 2 classes, BBs and DDs, without having a hardcounter themselves (when CCs have no DFAA, CVs can hard-counter CCs too).

Devs should make the CVs hardcounter a single class (BBs), while having a class (DDs, because they re the only capable of running them down) as a hardcounter for CVs, too.

Until then, CVs are still unbalanced as a class."

[Spellfire40]

I m gonna quote myself here:

"The CV  problem is the bad design of CVs as a class, because they can hard-counter 2 classes, BBs and DDs, without having a hardcounter themselves (when CCs have no DFAA, CVs can hard-counter CCs too).

Devs should make the CVs hardcounter a single class (BBs), while having a class (DDs, because they re the only capable of running them down) as a hardcounter for CVs, too.

Until then, CVs are still unbalanced as a class."

Well im ok with them having no hardconter because they are the only class that can run out of Ammo . Also AA from after CBT on is desighned to defend agist CVs without aircover IF you have Teamwork that was before AA buffs of mirror MM were CVs now allways have to deal with the enemy CV on Top.

 

The only Problem i have are 0 CV games and after that sudenly 2 per side? And of Course WGs inability to design an UI that makes you go thogh 20 Keyboards a year because you tend to rage throw them out of the window when playing a CV, WoWS is balanced around all classes CV included. The lack of CVs made them bring in crap that the game does not Need.

[G01ngToxicCommand0]

 

Everywhere.

 

 

No. Take this example:

 

There is an enemy Des Moines with defensive fire driving around alone at C.

 

Right now, you would immediately forget about attacking it since it is a Des Moines.

Assuming AA was nerfed and defensive fire wouldn't make AA overpowered on every ship, you would be able to attack it.

I didn't say nerf the AA to a level where it becomes totally useless, just nerf it to a level where lonely ships can be attacked.

Des Moines would retain very good AA, so attacking it would come at the cost of some planes, not all squadrons you were attacking with.

 

Please tell how you will balance a class like carriers against a player base that, on average and for whatever reason, do not team play, or in the case of CVs being balanced against the average 'no team play' teams how you will balance CVs against teams that actually team play?

Quite the dilemma as you can't do both at the same time isn't it?

 

The point is that it is not possible to balance CV for the kind of random game modes that WoWS have and people have to realise that this CVs will never work as envisioned because players act chaoticly and random and that most players do not play to work together with other people but plays to shoot other people and care nothing about team play whatsoever.

[22cm]

Well im ok with them having no hardconter because they are the only class that can run out of Ammo .

 

Well, I m not OK, and you re wrong, no ship in WoWs runs out of ammo, and many ships loose their turrets or their torpedo tubes just like the CVs loose their planes.

[kfa]

 

Well, I m not OK, and you re wrong, no ship in WoWs runs out of ammo, and many ships loose their turrets or their torpedo tubes just like the CVs loose their planes.

 

Well if you calmed down read once more what you wrote and how stupid it sounds, you are usually more intelligent

 

Anyway my personal solution would be something else. Its okay that we have the AA fortresses like many CAs, some really nasty high tier DDs and clumped up battleships, theres nothing wrong to counter the planes if you payed 8-10 points for AA skills, but i would increase the number of planes and their decrease their reload time in all tiers. With this, the AA specced ships would be still happy because they wreck planes and the CVs would have more fun as well not actually staring at the screen for 3-4 minues because somebody pushed a magic button.

[gekkehenkie50]

*Smirks at fully AA speced Iowa 100 AA rating*

Although I agree that carriers and AA need a rework, I do not think that the defensive fire consumable is the problem: just send in 1 squad, lose 1~2 planes while pulling them out, wait 40 seconds, then strike with all your planes. You will lose planes, but you should be able to sink a cruiser with 1 strike.

[TommyScaletta]

*Smirks at fully AA speced Iowa 100 AA rating*

Although I agree that carriers and AA need a rework, I do not think that the defensive fire consumable is the problem: just send in 1 squad, lose 1~2 planes while pulling them out, wait 40 seconds, then strike with all your planes. You will lose planes, but you should be able to sink a cruiser with 1 strike.

Except for Des Moines, Neptune, Minotaur and Hindenburg. They will just keep wrecking your planes. Even if they're alone, not playing with the team whatsoever.

[Tekacko]

LETS MAKE CRUISERS EVEN LESS USEFUL.

 

Good ideas bro.

[159Hunter]

Well I do feel that just pushing a button and all the planes get screwed up accuracy is bad design. At least make people select squads to lose accuracy ( up to 3 or something ), rather than it being a push and forget button?

[Tungstonid]

 

 

Well, I m not OK, and you re wrong, no ship in WoWs runs out of ammo, and many ships loose their turrets or their torpedo tubes just like the CVs loose their planes.

 

If you consider aircraft ammunition then CVs do. I would not compare them to turrets or torpedoe launchers.

 

Except for Des Moines, Neptune, Minotaur and Hindenburg. They will just keep wrecking your planes. Even if they're alone, not playing with the team whatsoever.

 

Cruisers, especially USN and maybe RN ones, are supposed to have strong AA to help their fleet against CVs. While I see the problem with strong BB AA, I don't think that one should nerf cruisers in this regard. Nerfing the Def AA consumable is IMO not the right thing to do either, especially not as you proposed. The consumable is meant to "simulate" a crew firing everything it has because of incoming aircraft. So it really doesn't make sense to say "I guys, shoot everything you have but do less damage".

If you want to strike a Des Moines because she is an important target or you have nothing else to go after, try to bait her to use the consumables and retreat your planes as soon as she does. Simply come back after it is over.

[Praxics]

 

I don’t buy it.

 

You could for example bait the AA cruiser to waste their defensive AA fire with a feint attack then come back once AA is in cool down with a real full scale attack. Pretty sure that will wreck the cruiser. And don’t give me that a CV can’t even drop on an AA cruiser once defensive AA is in cool down, because you sure can. You lose some planes, big deal. You still get through with most of the lot unless you are low tier.

Or you could avoid the AA cruiser all together and go for some easier target.

 

The problem is you think you should be able to wreck an AA cruiser during defensive AA fire. Guess what? No you don’t.

 

This holds true for AA BBs as well. I have most of the US BBs with an AA rating that break the scale. It doesn’t really matter. Equal or higher CVs get to me anyway.  It is just that they lose some planes while doing so.

But even then once an AA BB gets showered by HE some of the AA mounts will be destroyed softening up AA BBs even further. So you could just wait for the AA BB to be soften up for you by some cruisers…

 

The ones that actually really get wrecked, and hard, are the ones that try to attack e.g. my AA spec Alabama with a lower tier 6 CV. Yes, those really get annihilated. But equal tier? No, they get through with some losses.

 

Another issue +-1MM would improve.

 

And yes there are ships that have pretty weak AA e.g. Amagi, Zao, Ibuki, Atago, Mogami and basically all DD who don’t have defensive AA fire.

 

Now I will agree that AA has been increased dramatically over the last year.

But let’s not forget that CV were able, and still are, to delete anyone rather easily if they set their mind to it...

 

 

I have no solutions for CVs. I think the concept is flawed because the CV does not put his ship at risk but only his ammunition. The only danger to a CV for the first half of a game is another CV after all. That is why even CV got defensive AA fire in order to reduce the chances of snipes giving less skilled players some chance against the demigods out there.

In any case I will not agree to changes that make CV roflstomp everyone else as they used to do.

 

[dasCKD]

The AA in this game has issues, and the defensive AA is a tiny and quite frankly insignificant amount of it. I've in fact come to a point where I am beginning to believe that having AA and plane health scaling at all between tiers is bad for the strike plant to AA interaction. It'll be a while before I can quantify any of this into words though, so I'll leave it as is for now.

[TommyScaletta]

 

 

If you consider aircraft ammunition then CVs do. I would not compare them to turrets or torpedoe launchers.

 

 

Cruisers, especially USN and maybe RN ones, are supposed to have strong AA to help their fleet against CVs. While I see the problem with strong BB AA, I don't think that one should nerf cruisers in this regard. Nerfing the Def AA consumable is IMO not the right thing to do either, especially not as you proposed. The consumable is meant to "simulate" a crew firing everything it has because of incoming aircraft. So it really doesn't make sense to say "I guys, shoot everything you have but do less damage".

If you want to strike a Des Moines because she is an important target or you have nothing else to go after, try to bait her to use the consumables and retreat your planes as soon as she does. Simply come back after it is over.

 

I understand what you're saying, but the problem is that a Des Moines will eat your planes even without defensive fire.

When you just pump out as much ammo as you have against aviation, chances are your accuracy isn't the best. That's why I proposed to lower the damage output.

I don’t buy it.

 

You could for example bait the AA cruiser to waste their defensive AA fire with a feint attack then come back once AA is in cool down with a real full scale attack. Pretty sure that will wreck the cruiser. And don’t give me that a CV can’t even drop on an AA cruiser once defensive AA is in cool down, because you sure can. You lose some planes, big deal. You still get through with most of the lot unless you are low tier.

Or you could avoid the AA cruiser all together and go for some easier target.

 

The problem is you think you should be able to wreck an AA cruiser during defensive AA fire. Guess what? No you don’t.

 

This holds true for AA BBs as well. I have most of the US BBs with an AA rating that break the scale. It doesn’t really matter. Equal or higher CVs get to me anyway.  It is just that they lose some planes while doing so.

But even then once an AA BB gets showered by HE some of the AA mounts will be destroyed softening up AA BBs even further. So you could just wait for the AA BB to be soften up for you by some cruisers…

 

The ones that actually really get wrecked, and hard, are the ones that try to attack e.g. my AA spec Alabama with a lower tier 6 CV. Yes, those really get annihilated. But equal tier? No, they get through with some losses.

 

Another issue +-1MM would improve.

 

And yes there are ships that have pretty weak AA e.g. Amagi, Zao, Ibuki, Atago, Mogami and basically all DD who don’t have defensive AA fire.

 

Now I will agree that AA has been increased dramatically over the last year.

But let’s not forget that CV were able, and still are, to delete anyone rather easily if they set their mind to it...

 

 

I have no solutions for CVs. I think the concept is flawed because the CV does not put his ship at risk but only his ammunition. The only danger to a CV for the first half of a game is another CV after all. That is why even CV got defensive AA fire in order to reduce the chances of snipes giving less skilled players some chance against the demigods out there.

In any case I will not agree to changes that make CV roflstomp everyone else as they used to do.

 

The problem is not only defensive fire. The problem is that some cruisers just have blatantly overpowered AA, like Des Moines. That's why I would nerf AA in general so these ships still retain the best-in-class AA.

 

Balancing CVs is a mess.

 

 

[txtspeak]

 

I understand what you're saying, but the problem is that a Des Moines will eat your planes even without defensive fire.

When you just pump out as much ammo as you have against aviation, chances are your accuracy isn't the best. That's why I proposed to lower the damage output.

 

The problem is not only defensive fire. The problem is that some cruisers just have blatantly overpowered AA, like Des Moines. That's why I would nerf AA in general so these ships still retain the best-in-class AA.

 

Balancing CVs is a mess.

 

 

 

Des moines needs broken [edited]AA.

It's Underpowered

[hgbn_dk]

oohh another cry baby cv driver..... You're lucky they didn't add the 8 inch main guns to the AA suite on the Des Moines. In real life every gun she had was dp guns. The automatic 3 inches dp guns was developed as the 40mm Bofors proved unable to stop Kamikaze's they could shoot them down but could not stop them mid air. They needed to be destroyed completely mid air so nothing big could penetrate to the ships.

[hgbn_dk]

[dasCKD]

Des moines needs broken [edited]AA.

It's Underpowered

 

She really doesn't. A ship with a brokenly powerful AA doesn't make a ship strong, it will eventually make a ship weak. When a ship isn't in a competitive tier i.e. 8 you can't expect the thing it is countering to be there. A ship that stops carrier from doing anything whatsoever will be ultimately detrimental to itself. If a ship can just completely shut a carrier down, then carriers would just stop playing the game. This just ends with AA specialized ship not having anything to do and being useless most of the time. The Des Moines is inherently her own worst enemy.

[txtspeak]

 

She really doesn't. A ship with a brokenly powerful AA doesn't make a ship strong, it will eventually make a ship weak. When a ship isn't in a competitive tier i.e. 8 you can't expect the thing it is countering to be there. A ship that stops carrier from doing anything whatsoever will be ultimately detrimental to itself. If a ship can just completely shut a carrier down, then carriers would just stop playing the game. This just ends with AA specialized ship not having anything to do and being useless most of the time. The Des Moines is inherently her own worst enemy.

 

yeah. thats kinda interesting actually.

 

one of the reasons the New Orleans (for example) is so crap is because its a very important target (radar ship)

so one of the very few times when nerfing a ship might improve its performance...

[dasCKD]

yeah. thats kinda interesting actually.

 

one of the reasons the New Orleans (for example) is so crap is because its a very important target (radar ship)

so one of the very few times when nerfing a ship might improve its performance...

 

It's the persisting problem with cruisers unfortunately. They underperform and so they get buffed with consumables to try to get them to perform better despite the fact that the inherent problem with cruiser performance isn't addressed. Cruisers, previously already focused down first because they're fragile and moderately easy to remove from the game. Now ships are given even more incentive to focus down those cruisers as quickly as possible. It's why I find the Missouri so objectionable. She has the strategic value of a radar armed cruiser but can't really be focused down the same way a cruiser is.