Carriers [high tier vs low tier enjoyment]

[Tigdam]

As most people know in the latest patch wargaming removed manual drops to address  seal clubbing [though given how many talented carrier captain decided to go back to tier 4/5 it really wasn't]. Wargamings solution was to remove the need for skill ie the manual drop to allow newer players to have an easier time, which is all well and good but now they are punishing newer carrier captains. So in typical wargaming fashion they never bothered to ask WHY people were going into lower tier matches and instead simply tried to plaster over the issue and call it fixed. Many carrier captains find high tier [8/9/10] to be rather stale at times and not enjoyable, sure you'll have a good match on occasion but loosing half of your aircraft to a des'moin you only saw twice in a battle isn't enjoyable for any carrier captain, there's no counter and its genially unfair to simply have someone push the AA cooldown and everyone around them becomes invincible, if one torpedo out of twelve gets into the water when there's a Baltimore or des around protecting a battleship then you've been lucky. That's not fun, sporting or engaging so people went back to lower tiers to play in a match they did find enjoyable and engaging. Again rather than fixing the problem wargaming just screwed over newer players and pretended as if it was a non issue because anyone who isn't an aircraft carrier was fine with this.

 

I've spoken too a few carriers in game and it seems like this is the case but what do you guys think, are higher tier carriers too fragile when it comes to anti aircraft and still need a buff to make the gameplay fair and enjoyable or am I completely wrong in my line of thinking?

[Nechrom]

In my experience (although limited to tier 4-7) I don't think AA is as huge of an issue as people like to claim. Some carriers like the Hiryu has really fragile TBs for example and can get screwed pretty hard, but aside from these edge cases I don't really feel there is a problem. Carriers have the entire map open to them and are free to choose targets and how to approach them. Rarely do I face a situation where I don't have at least one decent target. Even if I get caught in DFAA that doesn't mean I can't get some damage done.

What WG needs to do is fix those strange cases of abnormally fragile planes on a couple of CVs and they really need to do something about AS load-outs. Either remove the AS option completely or limit it in some way which actually makes it difficult to use. Since neutering its strike capability doesn't seem to keep people from wanting to grief their team and the enemy CV for the lulz.

[Tigdam]

In my experience (although limited to tier 4-7) I don't think AA is as huge of an issue as people like to claim. Some carriers like the Hiryu has really fragile TBs for example and can get screwed pretty hard, but aside from these edge cases I don't really feel there is a problem. Carriers have the entire map open to them and are free to choose targets and how to approach them. Rarely do I face a situation where I don't have at least one decent target. Even if I get caught in DFAA that doesn't mean I can't get some damage done.

What WG needs to do is fix those strange cases of abnormally fragile planes on a couple of CVs and they really need to do something about AS load-outs. Either remove the AS option completely or limit it in some way which actually makes it difficult to use. Since neutering its strike capability doesn't seem to keep people from wanting to grief their team and the enemy CV for the lulz.

 

its not too bad at mid tier or lower tiers but you'll start to notice it when you start seeing tier 9/10 ships in game, most of the time they have learned to finally sail in groups and especially on some of the maps you'll end up with two separate groups that stick togeather to push the caps of course making their AA cover each other but its not too bad on things like the Hiryu, still go out in my own from time to time, solid carrier. Still I agree with removing the air superiority set ups and aircraft hp in general needs a bit of a buff.

[Mangrey]

I love the CV posts ( keep it up!) ... but sadly Forum admins are going to move it to the CV forum part where no one but CV players go..... and fact is that the problem you speak of are mostly over a year old and when i hear them say they are going to adress the CVs problem it is making me scared when i saw how they "fix" the latest sealclobbing problem.

 

mang 

[Migulaitor]

In my experience (although limited to tier 4-7) I don't think AA is as huge of an issue as people like to claim.

 

The problem of AA is the huge difference between a ship specced and not specced, you get +40% range, +30% DPS and double DPS on long range+ 2 fighters.

A 4 points skill gives you double damage against a class 

Imagine those skills:

"Torp the BBabies": 4 points skill,torps deal +100% damage and double chance of flooding.

"Peasant cruisers": 4 points, only for BBs, citadels deal double damage on cruisers.

"Not so sneaky now eh?": 4 points, cruiser ammo deal double damage to DDs.

 

The first and the third are awfull, the second one is realistic but still those skills are more balanced than manual AA, they are only usefull against the class you are supossed to counter. Now a BB AA specced can do serious damage to CV strikes even if he is alone (proud owner of a Clear Sky, with Gneisenau)

 

AA needs a heavy nerf on BBs and DDs, a bit on cruisers except americans, remove AA fire from all except american cruisers and AA ships (Kutuzov and give it to the Akizuki) maybe let it to carriers, the snipping just force somebody to stay back doing nothing else than giving AA support. Also remove AS setups. (This will hurt me, I love flaming AS CVs when outplaying them)

 

[Nechrom]

The problem of AA is the huge difference between a ship specced and not specced, you get +40% range, +30% DPS and double DPS on long range+ 2 fighters.

A 4 points skill gives you double damage against a class 

Imagine those skills:

"Torp the BBabies": 4 points skill,torps deal +100% damage and double chance of flooding.

"Peasant cruisers": 4 points, only for BBs, citadels deal double damage on cruisers.

"Not so sneaky now eh?": 4 points, cruiser ammo deal double damage to DDs.

 

The first and the third are awfull, the second one is realistic but still those skills are more balanced than manual AA, they are only usefull against the class you are supossed to counter. Now a BB AA specced can do serious damage to CV strikes even if he is alone (proud owner of a Clear Sky, with Gneisenau)

 

AA needs a heavy nerf on BBs and DDs, a bit on cruisers except americans, remove AA fire from all except american cruisers and AA ships (Kutuzov and give it to the Akizuki) maybe let it to carriers, the snipping just force somebody to stay back doing nothing else than giving AA support. Also remove AS setups. (This will hurt me, I love flaming AS CVs when outplaying them)

 

You are right that you can seriously boost AA power through skills and upgrades, but what you fail to realize is that AA is purely defensive. You are comparing it to offensive abilities.

We already have plenty of powerful defensive abilities like stacking concealment, maneuverability, a variety of alerts, actual HP boost etc.

Since ships only have one defense against CV strikes it ends up occupying a large spectrum of effectiveness. From the shittiest IJN "everything" AA to the big bad USN high tier BBs specced for max AA.

 

And I can't take anyone seriously who calls for heavy AA nerfs for anything other than the most AA-heavy BBs.

Nerf AA on DDs? Are you trolling?

[FlinzP]

No need to nerf AA but mechanics could be tweaked. Either make so it doesn't matter if you planes get shot down(rework exp reward) by either you have endless plane pool (as it almost is now if you play right) or AA matters more if you have more ships together. Issue is bit same as with US BBs. Those ships aren't designed on such small battle zones same as you aren't supposed to face such massive number of ships on small area with few planes. It makes sense some BBs have massive number of AA but not that it's so effective alone.

 

I belive how planes work aren't really working as they did. "Dive" bombers used greater altitudes to avoid most anti air, they caused serious damage but usually didn't manage to sink ships. When those large ships like Yamato was hammered with dropped bombs, US navy sent their low flying torp bombers to sink it as most AA effectivness was lost.

 

I personally would suggest removing defensive AA or limit it to the american cruisers and some special ships. Also those catapult fighters are just silly. No one plane could cause such inaccuracy on entire squadron. I admit catapult fighter rarely is issue but still. BBs using spotter makes more sense.

 

Seriously remove AS only builds. There are few good reasons to do it:

1. It's not helping team at all even if you think so. Almost every game I see strikers doing more than AS. At best its just equalizer and result is just worse position to all carriers.

2. It's working against idea of playing carrier. Plane vs plane? Doesn't seem to belong to this game. Simulating that would require every game atlesat three carriers per side with different decks.

3. It's just rock paper scissoring. Why most CV players already do IJN? Because it gives valid balanced deck with fighters and good number of bombers. Not silly gimmick builds with either lacking squadrons, "overkill" useless AS or no fighters at all.

Let carriers work as they are intended(?) in this game, working against enemy ships.

 

What it comes to manual and auto. For now I have to agree with it atleast temporal solution. It was extremly easy to remove ships with CV in lower tiers. More than often you see ships with no AA at all. Not sure which tiers should actually receive this but atest t4 should.

[Redcap375]

 

You are right that you can seriously boost AA power through skills and upgrades, but what you fail to realize is that AA is purely defensive. You are comparing it to offensive abilities.

We already have plenty of powerful defensive abilities like stacking concealment, maneuverability, a variety of alerts, actual HP boost etc.

Since ships only have one defense against CV strikes it ends up occupying a large spectrum of effectiveness. From the shittiest IJN "everything" AA to the big bad USN high tier BBs specced for max AA.

 

And I can't take anyone seriously who calls for heavy AA nerfs for anything other than the most AA-heavy BBs.

Nerf AA on DDs? Are you trolling?

 

Have you seen the AA damage a humble Fletcher can dish out on a tier 8 IJN planes, I have.

Gearing? I have.

Or any of the Russian tier 9-10 DDs, ESPECIALLY the new ones? I have.

Even the IJN AA spec DDs? I have.

 

Thrown in the kill all planes button  and its hell on a stick.

 

I am not complaining about DD AA effectiveness chaps as they really have to think about taking a AA spec DD, more than any another line. But when they do, they can be a very hard target to:

 

1) Hit

2) Get past without taking casualties.

3) Spot

 

So when Migulaitor talkes about DD AA, don't laugh him off the park as he has a valid point.  DD captains find this hard to take, including half of my Clan mates that live for DDs.

 

I have seen Fletchers wipe 30 planes out the sky and i'm sure you chaps have too. As for other tiers, I have a 81 AA skill Cleveland.  This thing is a complete no-go zone for even tier 9 planes, easy. I'm also hitting planes at 8.4Km in my Neptune!!!! Cruisers are not the problem though and should be left alone concerning aa.

 

Remember, the New BFT skill auto gave people 10% increase straight off the bat! Who doesn't use that one, really? DDs?

 

I know this is common knowledge, but why are CV players going further down the tiers? Economy and AA (throw in a pinch of controls)..Simple

 

CV captains are running out of tier to go: 

 

Tier 4-5 boring as hell now with zero tactics involved.  

Tier 6-7 is the new CV nobbie hell tier (6) as they are now finding out that strafing hurts ALOT and ships are missing their auto torps drops, just like tier 4-5. Ships like Geu, Sharn, Atlantas, Clevelands are now rearing there ugly aa head with the "Welcome to aa city" mentally.   

Tier 8- The last bastion of Sanctuary providing the MM is kind.  

Tier 9-10 AA death traps and still broken economy.

 

[Blitzkrieguk]

I hope WG does the right thing and increases AA further. So glad the Hood has defensive fire, lets hope the rest of the RN does as well.

[Redcap375]

I hope WG does the right thing and increases AA further. So glad the Hood has defensive fire, lets hope the rest of the RN does as well.

 

I'm going out on a limb here but...I guess you aren't a CV player m8 and have played very few games in them.

 

My bet is that your a BB player/AA cruiser player and don't care about any other line apart from your own.

[Redcap375]

Its like me going on about DDs.  Its the one line i just cant get my head around and never have.  That's why i can only give my honest opinion of them, as I have no real experience in them.  I have see what they can do with AA, but also how vulnerable and easy prey without it (spotting them contently when smoke has ran out).

 

BBs have nothing, i mean nothing to complain about aa wise.

 

P.s I have played more games in cruisers and BBs by-the-way.

[lycea]

The only reasoning I can find behind 'planes are to squishy' is if you are a bottom tiered CV in a +2MM. And even then the playstyle is quite similar because bottom tier or toptier, you should always look for isolated targets. a CV can scan the whole map so it shouldnt be a problem. 

[Blitzkrieguk]

 

I'm going out on a limb here but...I guess you aren't a CV player m8 and have played very few games in them.

 

My bet is that your a BB player/AA cruiser player and don't care about any other line apart from your own.

 

While I know you checked my stats to see what I play because that was obvious from your statement, if you'd decided to check more recently you'll notice at 90 days it's actually almost even in percentages between the 3 and the last 30 days it's very heavy on the destroyer play. So i'll just say I play the other classes pretty evenly because when I stated the game I started with BB's before I got bored with them at T7 to 8 before I moved on.

 

Now lets be serious for a second and i'll tell you why I utterly despise CV's more so than I do BB's. 

You've first got the fact the are so horrible and dull to play (and I play a lot of strategy games). Next they are super unfun to be against in any shape or form. They force people to bundle up and flanking play gets horrifically punished and made redundant because planes will just spot them through mountains. 

Next, they are literally the slightly more skilled version of Artillery in WoT, I hated them and i'll hate these. Having something that can strike down people across the map without little consequence to them selves is asinine.

Next, the fact they can literally drop torpedo's so close to you that even destroyers cannot dodge them, i'm sorry but this is 1000% busted. You can say what you want, oh why not turn at them prevent them from dropping blah blah blah, sorry but if a CV wants you dead especially at high tier you are dead and there's little you can do. If by some sheer miracle you are still alive, you're more broken than Stephen Hawking's body. 

Another issue, they are so insanely bustedly overpowered, yet people seem completely brain washed to thinking they are underpowered/terrible. That's why CV's deal the most damage by a retarded margin. They are so busted that literally 1 CV in a game can literally turn the tide, since they literally can move across the map with speed and ease, scout and strike with impunity and the wrath of 10000 gods powered by a million suns, yet some how they are seen as underpowered. It's bad enough with 1 in a game, if there's 2 well then everyone literally Nascars around the map because not being part of the hive will get you killed. 

 

They literally do what Artillery does in WoT and make the game horrifically unfun. People especially the artar players kept throwing out their catchphrase "It prevents camping" what they didn't realise it actually promoted and enforced players to camp harder because if they were spotted they would get their faces stoved in at a rapid pace, so staying in hard cover or positions so far back you can't be seen literally slowed the pace down and makes the gameplay dull, which is what CV's do here. I have zero love for them. 

 

 

[__Themistocles__]

I just shot down 7 Midway planes in my Fletcher, 3 weren't during def. AA. 

 

AA range needs a nerf. Some ships need AA rework. "Weak ships" like -1 tier DD, BB, or same tier BB with weak AA (e.g. Yamato) shouldn't be able to roll a "natural 20" and mow down 6 planes solo (like seriously I lost 7 planes in a strike to a single Gneisenau once in my Lexington, and an Ognevoi shot down 3 planes during a strike). 

 

And obviously overlap of AA is a huge culprit. Try striking a 2xFDG grouped together. They annihilate your planes. 

 

Oh, and ship torps shouldnt be perma spotted by aircraft once launched, but only during the time they are actually spotted by aircraft. And a CV shouldn't be able to park his stuff over DDs and permaspot him (e.g. Shimakaze should be able to shoot an entire Midway squad in 2 minutes it hovers for that long). 

[Redcap375]

Now Isn't that so much better than the last post m8, gives us something to work with 

 

 

While I know you checked my stats to see what I play because that was obvious from your statement, if you'd decided to check more recently you'll notice at 90 days it's actually almost even in percentages between the 3 and the last 30 days it's very heavy on the destroyer play. So i'll just say I play the other classes pretty evenly because when I stated the game I started with BB's before I got bored with them at T7 to 8 before I moved on.

 

So not much CV play then, statement still stands 

 

Now lets be serious for a second and i'll tell you why I utterly despise CV's more so than I do BB's.

 

I play all classes and i don't DESPISE any class. When i play CVs i don't despise cruisers with their aa, nor do I despise CVs when i play in BBs and get hit with torps. 

 

You've first got the fact the are so horrible and dull to play (and I play a lot of strategy games).

 

Opinions are always welcome, some like Marmite some don't.  but i agree with you regarding tier 4-5 CVs being horrible and dull now

 

Next they are super unfun to be against in any shape or form.

 

There is a fine line between "unfun" and lack of tactics or teamplay i you will.  I notice your Clan as we have had a few in ours that have transferred over for whatever reason.  So you of all people must understand that?

 

They force people to bundle up and flanking play gets horrifically punished and made redundant because planes will just spot them through mountains. 

 

 They force people to bundle up (aka teamwork) and flanking (its the risk WE ALL TAKE).  Sometimes you just cant take risks with no consequence.

 

Next, they are literally the slightly more skilled version of Artillery in WoT, I hated them and i'll hate these. 

 

Really cant comment to be honest.  I didn't get that much into World of tanks.  Only got as far as that German anti tank aa 88 gun.  I didn't find Art that much of a problem.  But i will take your word for it mate.

 

Having something that can strike down people across the map without little consequence to them selves is asinine.

 

Like a Yam 

 

Next, the fact they can literally drop torpedo's so close to you that even destroyers cannot dodge them, i'm sorry but this is 1000% busted.

 

That my friend is the pinnacle of a CV captains skill. Its not without risk (aa) and drop too close and, well you know.  But how many players do you really know that can pull this off alot of the time against DDs? You mess it up and wasted time and resources that could have been used else where (including spotting).

 

You can say what you want, oh why not turn at them prevent them from dropping blah blah blah, sorry but if a CV wants you dead especially at high tier you are dead and there's little you can do. If by some sheer miracle you are still alive, you're more broken than Stephen Hawking's body. 

 

You are either or relying on:

1) On your own with no support, even close.

2) not AA DD spec

3) Ran out of smoke (normally have 4 of them)

4) Expecting the enemy CV to be THAT good

5) and yes, turn the bloody ship

 

Another issue, they are so insanely bustedly overpowered, yet people seem completely brain washed to thinking they are underpowered/terrible. That's why CV's deal the most damage by a retarded margin. They are so busted that literally 1 CV in a game can literally turn the tide, since they literally can move across the map with speed and ease, scout and strike with impunity and the wrath of 10000 gods powered by a million suns, yet some how they are seen as underpowered.

 

Brainwashed or experienced players with IMHO, I forget which one. 

 

It's bad enough with 1 in a game, if there's 2 well then everyone literally Nascars around the map because not being part of the hive will get you killed. 

 

Not doing what you want to do is such a B**** isn't it. Not being able to spread your wings and go solo and hunt to your hearts content sucks doesn't it? Being a strategy game player you of all people should appreciate teamwork and using multi units to overcome the enemy. And yes i know about "Teamwork" but its still the lynice pin to the game (look at ranked).  How many people solo in ranked 10+?  I LOVE IT in my Cleveland when i get 2 CVs. 40 planes EASY.

 

They literally do what Artillery does in WoT and make the game horrifically unfun.

 

That unfun word again.  Subjective.

 

People especially the artar players kept throwing out their catchphrase "It prevents camping" what they didn't realise it actually promoted and enforced players to camp harder because if they were spotted they would get their faces stoved in at a rapid pace, so staying in hard cover or positions so far back you can't be seen literally slowed the pace down and makes the gameplay dull, which is what CV's do here. I have zero love for them. 

 

I respect your opinion lad, i really do but tell me this:

 

Q. why would i shot myself in the foot as a mainly BB and CA player by saying that CVs are both needed and have problems.

 

Don't have a problem with them in my BB. If i'm solo with no support then i expect to attract CV attention, not fussed anyway in my Gne, Sharn, NC, Iowa, Min, Mus.

Don't have a problem with them in my CA. I know AA from these are deadly and very few CV captains are dumb enough to go hell bent on killing one (Excluding IJN CA granted) alot have defensive  and ship planes .

 

 

 

 

[IVemo]

They literally do what Artillery does in WoT and make the game horrifically unfun. People especially the artar players kept throwing out their catchphrase "It prevents camping" what they didn't realise it actually promoted and enforced players to camp harder because if they were spotted they would get their faces stoved in at a rapid pace, so staying in hard cover or positions so far back you can't be seen literally slowed the pace down and makes the gameplay dull, which is what CV's do here. I have zero love for them.

 

It has been said before, you could..

 

1. Have 3-4 CVs side per match with CVs, making these matches more immersive and to show clearly they are about CVs. The rest of the fleet should accept a support role for the first 10 minutes of these games.

2. Allow putting all planes into air at once, so whatever bad comes with the CVs go away fast instead of lingering on for the whole match duration.

3. Promote CVs to go after each other as it was in reality. This is usually not fun when CVs are 1v1, but in 4v4 situations and team members helping it should turn out to be. Automatically achieved with the sheer number of planes in air.

4. Manual all (torps etc.) can be removed if precision is enhanced and AA effectiveness is cut radically (-50% or more).

 

This suggestion, by the way, also removes CV skill effect in games by a lot.

[G01ngToxicCommand0]

@OP, I made this reply on your second identical topic:

 

This is not a new discussion, this has been discussed again and again and again.

The carriers can not be properply balanced within the confines of random games and players as the developers will have to either balance the class for Ranked, Clan Wars/team battles or random games. It is not possible to balance the class for all types due to massive skill level differences in the player base and the chaotic nature of MMOs.

 

It really is simple; if WG balances CVs for random play they will have to factor in that players in general do not team play, but rather just sail randomly around shooting at what is in front of them. If the CVs are then balanced for that kind of game meta then they wont work at all if playing against teams that actually team play which makes it frustrating to play CVs but not the other classes. If on the other hand the CVs are balanced against teams that team work they will utterly wreck and destroy any and all ships that are outside a strong AA umbrella and as that is how the vast majority of players play WoWS this will completely ruin the game experience for 90+ % of the playerbase as well as game balance and will lead to ultracamping games where no one dares move out of spawn.

 

Either you balance the class for non team working random team and the CV class will suffer when facing organised enemies or you balance it for team working teams and the vast majority of the playerbase will suffer, there is no golden middleground because there are only two extremes to chose between. And then we haven't even mentioned differences in individual CV players' skille level which p.t. have an extreme influence on battle results.

[G01ngToxicCommand0]

 

The problem of AA is the huge difference between a ship specced and not specced, you get +40% range, +30% DPS and double DPS on long range+ 2 fighters.

A 4 points skill gives you double damage against a class 

Imagine those skills:

"Torp the BBabies": 4 points skill,torps deal +100% damage and double chance of flooding.

"Peasant cruisers": 4 points, only for BBs, citadels deal double damage on cruisers.

"Not so sneaky now eh?": 4 points, cruiser ammo deal double damage to DDs.

 

The first and the third are awfull, the second one is realistic but still those skills are more balanced than manual AA, they are only usefull against the class you are supossed to counter. Now a BB AA specced can do serious damage to CV strikes even if he is alone (proud owner of a Clear Sky, with Gneisenau)

 

AA needs a heavy nerf on BBs and DDs, a bit on cruisers except americans, remove AA fire from all except american cruisers and AA ships (Kutuzov and give it to the Akizuki) maybe let it to carriers, the snipping just force somebody to stay back doing nothing else than giving AA support. Also remove AS setups. (This will hurt me, I love flaming AS CVs when outplaying them)

 

 

Your analogy is wrong.

Translated to other classes the modules and skills would increase the damage on and probability of destroying modules, not increasing the probability of flooding, fire and more damage against ship HP;

Why? Because strike and fighter aircraft are modules, not ship HP which is completely analogue to main gun and secondary batteries as well as torpedolaunchers and AA guns as they serve the same purposes: to deal damage against ships and aircraft. There is no difference between a CV that has lost of all its planes and any other class of ship that has lost all of its damage dealing modules and it is time that the notion that aircraft equals CV ship HP - they don't.

[CuddlyPanda]

Just posting here for the maymay's and salt, but it is pretty silly that one class gets to play a totally different game from the rest and with non-symmetric balance in that same class. 

[Blitzkrieguk]

So not much CV play then, statement still stands 

No was elaborating that you took a base look and told me I only play AA cruisers (though most cruisers are designed for that so an apt statement) and BB's. 

 

 

I play all classes and i don't DESPISE any class. When i play CVs i don't despise cruisers with their aa, nor do I despise CVs when i play in BBs and get hit with torps. 

I don't despise DD's when they torp my BB, because I know i've made a big mistake, didn't pre-empt his torps or he was stealth enough to catch me completely unguarded/in a position I can't get out of. But CV's on the other hand you cannot literally defend against 4x Torp Squadrons who want you dead who can drop point blank

 

Opinions are always welcome, some like Marmite some don't.  but i agree with you regarding tier 4-5 CVs being horrible and dull now

Entire class is not engaging, it's a big mess and feels ham handed.

 

There is a fine line between "unfun" and lack of tactics or teamplay i you will.  I notice your Clan as we have had a few in ours that have transferred over for whatever reason.  So you of all people must understand that?

There's a difference when tactics are employed to foil the enemy team with flanking maneuvers, splitting up and pushes. I fail to see all of those things being employed because operation hermit crab gets deployed because everyone has to move slowly in a big ball because the DD's can't scout properly, meaning the cruisers can't go out and support them. Instead they all sit in a big ball just to prevent, not enemy tactics, not enemy strategy, but just to prevent 1 ship. Yeah that's definitely balanced. 

 

 They force people to bundle up (aka teamwork) and flanking (its the risk WE ALL TAKE).  Sometimes you just cant take risks with no consequence.

Apart from CV's that have no risk or consequence. 

 

 

Really cant comment to be honest.  I didn't get that much into World of tanks.  Only got as far as that German anti tank aa 88 gun.  I didn't find Art that much of a problem.  But i will take your word for it mate.

WoT I was always able to dodge arty, but I hated the fact that it destroyed certain game play styles and which it was supposed to actually punish camping when all it did was increase it and it punished team pushes and movement. 

 

 

That my friend is the pinnacle of a CV captains skill. Its not without risk (aa) and drop too close and, well you know.  But how many players do you really know that can pull this off alot of the time against DDs? You mess it up and wasted time and resources that could have been used else where (including spotting).

 

It's not a risk when they can literally deploy hordes of planes, and keep replenishing them. 

I've seen it countless times because they have so many torp planes they can drop a massive wave of them and all it takes is 1 torpedo to pretty much wipe out a DD, so it's not exactly requiring skill when you can put down as many torps as a Taiho or Hakuryu, just a case of overwhelming them. 

 

 

You are either or relying on:

1) On your own with no support, even close.

2) not AA DD spec

3) Ran out of smoke (normally have 4 of them)

4) Expecting the enemy CV to be THAT good

5) and yes, turn the bloody ship

 

1) I'm normally pushing with players in BB's and Cruisers. DD's is where I tend to do my own thing. Trying to stop that amount of torp bombers bundled up does nothing.

2) The fact you have to be completely AA spec shows how amazingly busted CV's are and if they were in every game I actually would spec every ship anti-air

3) Only in very prolonged matches this occurs which doesn't matter because they will keep planes orbiting near by out of AA range and wait for your smoke to dissipate (this has happened way too much)

4) Most CV players by T6-7 can do it, it's not a case of them being "THAT GOOD" it's a case of a busted mechanic that prevents people from being able to do anything against it

5) Of course, that's a given. But if a CV wants you dead, it's not going to save you with the amount of planes they will throw at your face

 

Brainwashed or experienced players with IMHO, I forget which one. 

 

Standard effect that people think the class they play is the weakest. Just glance at the forum and you'll see large sections of BB players asking for either buffs, or torpedo/fire nerfs. 

 

Not doing what you want to do is such a B**** isn't it. Not being able to spread your wings and go solo and hunt to your hearts content sucks doesn't it? Being a strategy game player you of all people should appreciate teamwork and using multi units to overcome the enemy. And yes i know about "Teamwork" but its still the lynice pin to the game (look at ranked).  How many people solo in ranked 10+?  I LOVE IT in my Cleveland when i get 2 CVs. 40 planes EASY.

 

Through out my time playing games I have always had the habit of doing as much as I can to be a team player. About 2 weeks ago I was in a Pensa and saw the amount of CV's and BB's in the game, I went and sat with 2 Grossers, a Tirpitz and Bismarck the entire game following their exact movement so I could help shoot down planes for them. I will try and smoke others and cover others. In other games i'm normally support because I enjoy that. So you telling me that I can't play how I want isn't exactly correct. What I hate is the fact it destroys interesting and fun game play between teams and makes it stagnant.

In ranked sure people moved together but there was aggression and DD's could go and scout, you stick a CV in there everything slowed down. And the same counter CV tactics are employed

 

That unfun word again.  Subjective.

 

Because everything is subjective. Such as the opinions of people in this thread thinking AA needs a reduction and CV's should be buffed further....

 

And there's a reason why I mentioned fun several times. Because if a game is not fun I'm not going to play it, and i'd rather not have 1 class be literally that soul crushing it ruins the total experience and then reduces me and other players to quit. 

 

 

 

 

I respect your opinion lad, i really do but tell me this:

 

Q. why would i shot myself in the foot as a mainly BB and CA player by saying that CVs are both needed and have problems.

 

Don't have a problem with them in my BB. If i'm solo with no support then i expect to attract CV attention, not fussed anyway in my Gne, Sharn, NC, Iowa, Min, Mus.

Don't have a problem with them in my CA. I know AA from these are deadly and very few CV captains are dumb enough to go hell bent on killing one (Excluding IJN CA granted) alot have defensive  and ship planes .

 

See a ship lay down defensive fire, pull back planes and wait 40 seconds. Then blow him away, happens alot. 

 

To answer your question, first of all I'd say you're a massive CV player. Your T9's are 2x CV's and a Cruiser. This is your highest tier, so it obviously states you seem to enjoy them. Also your overall states indicate you play a lot of CV's as much as BB's. The only reason these stats in percentages are not higher is down to you obviously loving the Cleveland, if you removed that large section of games form this one ship it would show you play CV as much as or if not more than BB and Cruiser. On top of that your next 3 most played ships are all CV's. So as an answer i'd say you're lying to your self that you play CV's this much, unaware you play CV's that much or you are a CV player and are just generally defending CV's and trying to use this as a way to pick apart my argument. So you pick. 

 

 I appreciate you respect my opinion so i'll respect that you support your class and your opinion because at the end of the day we are only sharing a difference in opinion.  

 

In an ideal game CV's would be part of the game and would be both fun to play and be against, and they wouldn't be so busted against everything. But due to how overpowering and the amount they overshadow a game it's a reason why they need serious rebalancing, until that happens I'd rather they actually went away. 

 

 

[Redcap375]

Q. why would i shot myself in the foot as a mainly BB and CA player by saying that CVs are both needed and have problems.

 

Don't have a problem with them in my BB. If i'm solo with no support then i expect to attract CV attention, not fussed anyway in my Gne, Sharn, NC, Iowa, Min, Mus.

Don't have a problem with them in my CA. I know AA from these are deadly and very few CV captains are dumb enough to go hell bent on killing one (Excluding IJN CA granted) alot have defensive  and ship planes .

 

See a ship lay down defensive fire, pull back planes and wait 40 seconds. Then blow him away, happens alot. 

 

To answer your question, first of all I'd say you're a massive CV player. Your T9's are 2x CV's and a Cruiser. This is your highest tier, so it obviously states you seem to enjoy them. Also your overall states indicate you play a lot of CV's as much as BB's. The only reason these states in percentages are not higher is down to you obviously loving the Cleveland, if you removed that large section of games it would show you play CV as much as BB and Cruiser. But your next 3 most played ships are all CV's. So as an answer i'd say you're lying to your self, unaware you play CV's that much or you are a CV player and are just generally defending CV's and trying to use this as a way to pick apart my argument. So you pick. 

 

 

Oh I love playing CV's always have, no doubt, i could have told you that.  Its the opposite from your unfun opinion as i find them enjoyable (becoming less tho) and a challenge. The Neptune is a great ship too and a keeper.

 

BUT, the statement still stands m8 and is factual correct.

 

"I play more games in both the CAs and BB's than CV's" no matter which way you look at it, and dare i say twist it to fit your opinion. I love the Cleveland, that's not a CV no matter how many times i play it it's still a CA.  Granted i play alot of CV's COMPARED TO MOST (least played line) but i also played more BB games (Bis, Sharn, Warspite) then CV's????? Wouldn't that mean i enjoy BBs more?

 

See where i'm coming from? Just because i'm at tier 9 with 2 CVs doesn't mean i play them more or like the ship class more, only that i WANTED to go further in those lines.  I stopped at the Bis along time ago and had no intention to go further as i love the ship. Just like the Cleveland, you can keep the Pens thank you very much. 

 

Which means that i know what's its like to be:

 

1) A BB player

2) A CA player

3) A CV player

So i know what's its like to be on both sides of the fence.  Can you claim to have the same opinion i wonder 

 

Respect.

 

[El2aZeR]

They force people to bundle up and flanking play gets horrifically punished and made redundant because planes will just spot them through mountains. 

 

So forcing teamplay is bad apparently.

 

Really, let's examine why CVs currently "do not work". CVs are supposed to punish everything and anything that attempts to go solo aside from their counter class, which are cruisers. Guess what class is severely lacking in player numbers, currently? That's right, cruisers. What classes are currently the most popular? BBs and DDs, both of which are more than legitimate targets to CVs, they're the ones you're supposed to kill.

 

So without cruisers people cannot make pushes or flanks with a few ships work, forcing them to huddle up. That in itself is, like lemming trains, imo not a bad thing. It's what you're doing with it that can become a problem. Being a big murderblob does not necessarily mean that everyone is going to camp at the edge of the map, it's that the average player prefers to do so rather than pushing aggressively as a unit. Again, CVs do not enforce such a behavior. A blob of ships is not static, it can very much move. If the majority however decides not to do so then that's not the CV's problem, no?

 

Combine that with the hilariously low average skill of the playerbase and you have an environment in which skilled CV players easily thrive. After all, there are targets aplenty which your class is supposed to counter, driven mostly by scrubs who like to disregard even the most basic teamplay completely, with very few ships around that are able to counter yourself.

How do you solve it? Taking care of BB overpopulation to make cruisers more popular would be a good start. I feel like WG will never do that, though.

 

As for your inability to "dodge damage", you're not supposed to be able to do that. If a CV has the time and space to comfortably set up his drops, you deserve to die. End of story.

[Blitzkrieguk]

 

Oh I love playing CV's always have, no doubt, i could have told you that.  Its the opposite from your unfun opinion as i find them enjoyable (becoming less tho) and a challenge. The Neptune is a great ship too and a keeper.

 

BUT, the statement still stands m8 and is factual correct.

 

"I play more games in both the CAs and BB's than CV's" no matter which way you look at it, and dare i say twist it to fit your opinion. I love the Cleveland, that's not a CV no matter how many times i play it it's still a CA.  Granted i play alot of CV's COMPARED TO MOST (least played line) but i also played more BB games (Bis, Sharn, Warspite) then CV's????? Wouldn't that mean i enjoy BBs more?

 

See where i'm coming from? Just because i'm at tier 9 with 2 CVs doesn't mean i play them more or like the ship class more, only that i WANTED to go further in those lines.  I stopped at the Bis along time ago and had no intention to go further as i love the ship. Just like the Cleveland, you can keep the Pens thank you very much. 

 

Which means that i know what's its like to be:

 

1) A BB player

2) A CA player

3) A CV player

So i know what's its like to be on both sides of the fence.  Can you claim to have the same opinion i wonder 

 

Respect.

 

 

One of the main reasons for that answer was just going from your question you were giving the impression you were pretty impartial and didn't really play CV much your self as you said you mainly play BB and CA. While I don't really pile into peoples stats often, I thought since you'd checked mine I'd have a quick gander, which is where I developed my answer from. 

 

So while it wasn't a jab at your preferences, it was to make you aware of your question wasn't exactly correct as lets be honest you play them heavily which kind of voids your question of you shooting your self in the foot on CA's/BB's a little bit. 

 

Now while you say you know what it's like to play all those classes automatically allows you to sit on the fence and have an opinion that yields no distaste for the other classes as you play those three. I play my self play battleships. It doesn't stop me from finding them in need of a balance requirement and causes massive amounts of frustration, because they can be seriously unfun to play or be against, not all the time but if you remember from one of my older posts I didn't hold BB's in the highest regard as they have severe issues where the class needs a bit of suppression. 

So me playing that class doesn't make it immune to me having major issues with it's overarching performance and a low general opinion of it.

[Blitzkrieguk]

 

So forcing teamplay is bad apparently.

 

Really, let's examine why CVs currently "do not work". CVs are supposed to punish everything and anything that attempts to go solo aside from their counter class, which are cruisers. Guess what class is severely lacking in player numbers, currently? That's right, cruisers. What classes are currently the most popular? BBs and DDs, both of which are more than legitimate targets to CVs, they're the ones you're supposed to kill.

 

So without cruisers people cannot make pushes or flanks with a few ships work, forcing them to huddle up. That in itself is, like lemming trains, imo not a bad thing. It's what you're doing with it that can become a problem. Being a big murderblob does not necessarily mean that everyone is going to camp at the edge of the map, it's that the average player prefers to do so rather than pushing aggressively as a unit. Again, CVs do not enforce such a behavior. A blob of ships is not static, it can very much move. If the majority however decides not to do so then that's not the CV's problem, no?

 

Combine that with the hilariously low average skill of the playerbase and you have an environment in which skilled CV players easily thrive. After all, there are targets aplenty which your class is supposed to counter, driven mostly by scrubs who like to disregard even the most basic teamplay completely, with very few ships around that are able to counter yourself.

How do you solve it? Taking care of BB overpopulation to make cruisers more popular would be a good start. I feel like WG will never do that, though.

 

As for your inability to "dodge damage", you're not supposed to be able to do that. If a CV has the time and space to comfortably set up his drops, you deserve to die. End of story.

 

And everything you've said literally spells completely broken overpowered class. 

 

You've got 1 ship, not a class, 1 ship on a team that yields so much influence over the game that it literally forces 11 other people to play in a timid manner and break all other forms of tactics and strategy and spec certain ways JUST to prevent that 1 ship. How is that in any shape or form not broken? You can say team work as hard as you want here, but if it requires 11 people to prevent 1 person that's not correct. That's a broken class and need rectifying, and most likely with a sledge hammer.

 

Also having 1 class that literally provides all the damage, scouting and anti-air without any form of major risk to its self, how is that nothing but broken? If I wanted to do that kind of strike in a DD i'd either have to be lucky and hope he doesn't know I'm there and keeps sailing in a straight line or predict any small changes in movement or speed. Or I have to put my self at immense risk and possibly die to get in that close to slap him with that number of torpedo's. 

 

And yes, lets have a class that has the ability to instantly kill whom ever they please on the map and they are supposed to die and not make it preventable in any way. That's a great idea for game balance. I'm sure you're eagerly awaiting Anti-Ship missiles as it's literally the same thing. 

 

The fact there is 1 class, that yields so much power in terms of balance over the game and people want this buffed is beyond lunacy. I have no problem with them fixing AI, controls and the Economy, sure that's busted as well and needs sorting out. But the general power of them is insane. 

If you want this class fixed WG needs to literally scrap what exists and also look at AA as it currently stands and redo it completely from scratch and take a new approach. 

[kalamies]

At lower tier CVs are not fun at all, few shots from AA and drop spreads. From T8 AA feels pretty balanced, one ship doesent ruin attack so much, but few ships are quite hard to strike. Thats how it should be, one ship shouldnt have insanely strong AA to keep things balanced. To be relatively safe and effectively resist CV strike ships should stick together. +-2MM atm isnt working on lower tiers. I now have taiho and its first fun CV to play.