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Moorleiche2k

IJN T4-5 unplayable

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Simply as that, TY WG for nerfing IJN CV T4-T5 to oblivion by removing the "ALT" option.

 

1o1 IJN AA fighters vs USN AA are already inferior, now in 1o1 one cannot even use the ALT option to stay competitive. Further more, if the AA fighter setup is present on the USN CV, you are taken out of the game right from the beginning due to massive air inferiority of the IJN.

 

In advance: Dont tell me to fight above / with the team:

1. Using your own argument: In these levels many new players are present that fell to the CV's pre-patch. Now they dont do, but the point is, they are still new and usually THEY dont play in team.

2. Once again your own argument: (Almost) no AA capabilities of T4-T5 ships, so no ground-based AA support possible.

 

Realy amazing job *clapping*

Edited by Moorleiche2k
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As long as your teammates did not deactivate their AA, you can use it.

Please do not use the AA of DD. It is weak and the enemy fighter will spot your DD...

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Alpha Tester
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Correct me, if i am wrong, but besides the removal of the alt function (which i consider as a bad move, anyway), nothing has changed in terms of low-tier CV stats or balance. So nothing new within the meta. IJN CVs at that tier will remain the "anti-ship" CVs, US CVs the more versatile, arguably anti-CV fraction.

 

Since you blocked you profile for inspection, i can´t tell otherwise, but this somehow smells like "they took away my favourite sealclubbing-tool, now i need to complain, but make it look less obvious." Feel free to correct me, with facts ;)

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Correct me, if i am wrong, but besides the removal of the alt function (which i consider as a bad move, anyway), nothing has changed in terms of low-tier CV stats or balance. So nothing new within the meta. IJN CVs at that tier will remain the "anti-ship" CVs, US CVs the more versatile, arguably anti-CV fraction.

 

Since you blocked you profile for inspection, i can´t tell otherwise, but this somehow smells like "they took away my favourite sealclubbing-tool, now i need to complain, but make it look less obvious." Feel free to correct me, with facts ;)

 

I think the ALT removal does have a significant impact on the game balance and CV meta.

 - IJN torp bombers drop 4 torps, the gaps between them are much bigger. Avoiding auto-dropped IJN torps is MUCH easier than avoiding auto-dropped USN ones

 - IJN bombs have a great manual drop grouping (in fact it sometimes seems too small as it's hard to set many fires on bigger ships when you tend to drop all bombs on one section) but their auto drop dispersion is outright abysmal

The above differences would mean that the actual strike power of USN CVs at t4 is much superior to IJN equivalent while also having better firgters. At t5 the choice is between, again, a much better strike power or fighter loadout... And when fighters are involved:

 - IJN fighters are at a big disadvantage compared to USN ones. If you are more skilled you can try and abuse strafe to even out the odds - of course if the enemy plays just as good or better, he'll win, but without ALT attacks your chances of evening the odds are much worse - you can try and lock enemy fighters within friendly AA... but the AA at these tiers is so weak that it might not make any difference unless the enemy is stupid enough to let you lock his fighters right on top friently ship (or even ships).

 

So yes, while it's been a long while since I last played any IJN CV below t6, I'd say that removal of ALT attacks does affect the balance of nations a lot.

Then again. Balance between CV nations is pretty bad and has been for a long time. And at most tiers it's the US CVs that are at a disadvantage...

Edited by eliastion
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The main problem is T4-5 are not real CV gameplay, a new player at tier 5 will probably prefer an AS Bogue and he will be the happiest guy in the world, good xp for killing planes, ez clear sky just clicking twice per minute, almost all the planes at the end of the game, some fires. And then at tier 6 he will meet the reality when the japanese just deals more damage and straffes will happen (With the lovely HAX messages associated)

Also the japanese are supposed to deal more damage, with auto drops, yeah, 10 times more damage, 10x0 is still 0 :trollface:

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Correct me, if i am wrong, but besides the removal of the alt function (which i consider as a bad move, anyway), nothing has changed in terms of low-tier CV stats or balance. So nothing new within the meta. IJN CVs at that tier will remain the "anti-ship" CVs, US CVs the more versatile, arguably anti-CV fraction.

 

Since you blocked you profile for inspection, i can´t tell otherwise, but this somehow smells like "they took away my favourite sealclubbing-tool, now i need to complain, but make it look less obvious." Feel free to correct me, with facts ;)

 

yes you are, here the correction ;).

I try to rush through T4 and T5 and frequently get mad at the MM due to unfair setups. I cant stand easy wins or predictable losses. Furthermore, as "eliastion" has correctly stated, the strafing included the skill necessary to turn a guaranteed loss vs USN AA fighters into a possible win. It basically egalized the difference between the IJN and USN fighters. Now its actually what you call seal clubbing (whatever this means, must be sth like NoobBashing)) the IJN CVs.

 

As a sidenote: I closed my profile due to ppl judging on numbers they dont understand. Even though my stats aren't bad at all. However, you won't see them nonetheless.

Edited by Moorleiche2k

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yes you are, here the correction ;).

I try to rush through T4 and T5 and frequently get mad at the MM due to unfair setups. I cant stand easy wins or predictable losses. Furthermore, as "eliastion" has correctly stated, the strafing included the skill necessary to turn a guaranteed loss vs USN AA fighters into a possible win. It basically egalized the difference between the IJN and USN fighters. Now its actually what you call seal clubbing (whatever this means, must be sth like NoobBashing)) the IJN CVs.

 

As a sidenote: I closed my profile due to ppl judging on numbers they dont understand. Even though my stats aren't bad at all. However, you won't see them nonetheless.

 

Well, you still don´t provide facts. You tell me, why you don´t like the changes (since you prefer to ruch through the lower tiers, which is the wrong way, in my opinion, since you learn the basics of the game down there), which are basically personal impressions. Further more, as i mentioned, i agree with the opinion, that a removal of any of the "alt-abilities" on tier 4-5 CVs was a bad decision, simply because CV players need to learn these mechanics right from the start.

 

However, you don´t complain about this latest change for the reason and purpose of learning and player improvement, but because of the impression of a personal loss/handicap or change in your prefered playstyle. In addition, you dismantle your own argumentation, with complaining about mechanics on tiers, which you claim you want to ruch/pass as quickly as possible. While i can understand this position from an alpha-veterans point of view (i rushed straight for the Bismarck, instead of grinding through the tiers, for example), i don´t understand the complains about the changes of tiers you won´t play (for long), anyway.

That´s why i cannot agree elastion aswell. I might lack the experience with CVs at all, since i never played them much since alpha, with the exception of some testbed excursions. However, while his points could be considered true, i assume he misses to provide the complete picture. AFAIK, IJN CVs get more strike squadrons and different squad setups, and going on full anti CV setup on an US CV means hard handicaps in anti-ship abilities.

This was always WGs way to "balance" those two branches of carriers.

I don´t say, its good or balance. I disagree with the latest changes, since it affects "learning" CVs drastically, but i still won´t beleave you are not complaining about your favourite toy being taken from you.

 

Regarding your sidenode: Blocking your profile because you don´t like to being judged by others, who don´t understand your numbers, is pretty...well, not convincing. Either your stats speak for themselves, or they don´t. If they do, no reason to argue with judges, if they don´t, but you can explain/justify them properly, you can still decide to deal with judges, or ignore them. Hiding something always leaves the impression, you don´t want others to see the truth.

 

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Since you blocked you profile for inspection, i can´t tell otherwise, but this somehow smells like "they took away my favourite sealclubbing-tool, now i need to complain, but make it look less obvious." Feel free to correct me, with facts ;)

 

Not sure what his profile has to do with his points. If he said german dds are inferior to usn ones and had 45WR on them, would it make his point less valid?

Taking ALT attack was wrong, instead WG should've buffed AA on vessels or nerfed HP pool of aircrafts, not taking away crucial gameplay mechanism.

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Still dont see t4 ships as having that bad aa. The real sealclubbing at that level is from imperators and arkansas owners with their 60% win rate. Something wrong there but premium ships untouchable. Wg have just ruined any learning experience for alt attacks when the opposition arent using def fire and are still in the main clueless. At t6 they are in for the fright of their lives and will quit playing cvs because ... they are getting sealclubbed!

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Still dont see t4 ships as having that bad aa. The real sealclubbing at that level is from imperators and arkansas owners with their 60% win rate. Something wrong there but premium ships untouchable. Wg have just ruined any learning experience for alt attacks when the opposition arent using def fire and are still in the main clueless. At t6 they are in for the fright of their lives and will quit playing cvs because ... they are getting sealclubbed!

 

Sealclubbed by stuff like Alabama, NC, Mikhail Trolozov, Saipan, Atlanta, Cleveland... people who know how to play CVs moving their sealclubbing to T6 with a pair of Clevelands for maximum trolling...

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Alpha Tester
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Since you blocked you profile for inspection, i can´t tell otherwise, but this somehow smells like "they took away my favourite sealclubbing-tool, now i need to complain, but make it look less obvious." Feel free to correct me, with facts ;)

 

Have a 'like', people who open balance discussion threads while not having a profile visible for others,.... yuk. 

 

Not sure what his profile has to do with his points

 

Your signature seems to claim there is more rng then skill in this game right.... 

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btw CV eco is still broken as fu%&.

150k dmg shokaku game 1500 XP and 170k credits.

is this sh1t really that hard WG? 

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This thread made my eyes bleed seriously...

 

Where to start..

 

Simply as that, TY WG for nerfing IJN CV T4-T5 to oblivion by removing the "ALT" option.

 

1o1 IJN AA fighters vs USN AA are already inferior, now in 1o1 one cannot even use the ALT option to stay competitive. Further more, if the AA fighter setup is present on the USN CV, you are taken out of the game right from the beginning due to massive air inferiority of the IJN.

 

In advance: Dont tell me to fight above / with the team:

1. Using your own argument: In these levels many new players are present that fell to the CV's pre-patch. Now they dont do, but the point is, they are still new and usually THEY dont play in team.

2. Once again your own argument: (Almost) no AA capabilities of T4-T5 ships, so no ground-based AA support possible.

 

Realy amazing job *clapping*

 

Mhhm, salty tears...mhmmm.

 

Is the way that CVs now work kind of silly? Yes. That's why they're being reworked. In the meantime, maybe you should take some time to google the phrase "stopgap measure".

 

Taking ALT attack was wrong, instead WG should've buffed AA on vessels or nerfed HP pool of aircrafts, not taking away crucial gameplay mechanism.

 

Yes, let's solve the problem of an imbalanced active game mechanic with an imbalanced passive game mechanic. Are you sure you don't actually work for Wargaming? Is this your alt account Mr. Sub_Octavian?

 

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This thread made my eyes bleed seriously...

 

Where to start..

 

 

Mhhm, salty tears...mhmmm.

 

Is the way that CVs now work kind of silly? Yes. That's why they're being reworked. In the meantime, maybe you should take some time to google the phrase "stopgap measure".

 

 

Yes, let's solve the problem of an imbalanced active game mechanic with an imbalanced passive game mechanic. Are you sure you don't actually work for Wargaming? Is this your alt account Mr. Sub_Octavian?

 

 

While your thrashing of people is entertaining, I would like to point out that all that the CV changes have done is to make CV players learn how to play their ship later on in terms of tiers. This has a direct consequence in that players will now be more likely be to subpar in higher tiers, simular to the Saipan-Spree outbreak where you had a few good CV players clubbing ALOT of people who either never touched CVs before and/or people who decided to skip from Langley to Saipan to get 'an edge' on CV play. Except that this issue will extend beyond tier 6 into possibly T7-8.. and T10 games having a Lexington/Shoukaku who hasn't even learned to manual drop properly yet.

 

So even if this is a bandaid solution, all it will do is cause a negative feedback chain throughout the system and further deepens the gap between skilled and lesser skilled CV players.

 

 

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Your signature seems to claim there is more rng then skill in this game right...

 

Nope. It's sole aim is to troll you. :trollface:

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Nope. It's sole aim is to troll you. :trollface:

 

So how does it feel to fail :popcorn:

 

And more to the point, hidden profiles in balance discussions are bad mkay :trollface:

 

 

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So how does it feel to fail

 
And more to the point, hidden profiles in balance discussions are bad mkay

 

How does it feel? I wouldn't know. But feel free to tell me. And don't keep popcorn to yourself. Sharing is good! :D

 

And about hiding profiles... Not that long ago you asked someone not to disregard point you were making, on the sole base of you lacking this particular experience. And I feel exactly the same. Fact someone doesn't play a certain class/ship, not necessarily makes his point invalid when speaking on the subject. Same with the profile. But if someone was bragging how excellent he is, then indeed I'd expect his profile to be visible - but it is not the case here.

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Some points can be made without profile indeed, but it remains a thing off principle :hiding:

 

Ow and here have some :popcorn:

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If they could remove ALT attacks with torpedo and dive bombers, its ok. But you right. They should give back ALT attacks to fighters.

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At tier 4 and 5, without Alt attacks two equally skilled CV players, IJN prety much always loses to USN. USN can just pretty much wipe out the IJN's airgroups and there's very little the IJN can do to counterplay that does not rely on the USN player making a bad mistake.

 

Strafing was the big equalizer, which gave the IJN CVs a chance to flip the table and gain the advantage.

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Alpha Tester, Players
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well remove on t4 yeah maybe ok , but at t5 , ? zzz 1 vs 1 zuiho had a little chance vs bogue fighters only with strafe but now , its rip

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well remove on t4 yeah maybe ok , but at t5 , ? zzz 1 vs 1 zuiho had a little chance vs bogue fighters only with strafe but now , its rip

 

Except that it isn't; played a few T4 games with Yubari to stomp some auto dropping CVs and I've noticed Hosho's being unable to defend themselves against Langley auto drops since the Langley's fighters obliterate the Hosho fighters, followed by auto drops ignoring Hosho's crappy AA and instagibbing them. By removing Strafing/Manual drops from T4/5 they completely fucked over the early IJN CVs and they completely fucked over any semblance of balance they had going on at any tier. :P
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Weekend Tester
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New USN auto drop is good enough against slow targets -> BBs / CVs.

Seen even devastating strikes against cruisers. When they just drag race new auto drop is as good as manual drop.

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The biggest issue with the removal of manual attacks is (in my opinion) that one of the stated reasons to do so, is the bad AA at T4-T5. In my opinion and experience, there are some ships with decent AA at those tiers, and your plane reserves are so low that you want to assure hitting them as hard as possible (i.e. manual attack).

 

T4:

Kaiser, Wyoming and Myogi all have decent AA.

 

T5:

Texas and Konig have strong AA.

New York and Kongo should not be underestimated.

Kirov and Omaha should also not be underestimated.

 

With manual attacks removed you'll still lose planes, but you won't be able to hit them as hard (or at all, unless you cross-drop).

Imo it's an indirect buff to some other ships whose weakness were CVs/planes, i.e. some DDs (especially the -old- Minekaze clones) and the Imperator Nikolai and Arkansas Beta.

Those ships didn't need another buff as they already were (too) strong.

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