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FrankFly_Dk

Main guns on Gneisenau/Scharnhorst too powerfull

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Hi all.

I hope the Devs see this thread.

Reguarding the main guns on the Gneisenau and Scharnhorst, they are too powerfull in the game. In reality the ships were equiped with 11 inch guns which is 27,94 cm. In the game the ships are equiped with 15 inch guns.

I have the info about the guns from a book that I have called "Janes fighting ships of World War II". The same info is avaiable in wikipedia.

Best Regards

Frank Petersen aka FrankFly Dk

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Scharnhorst has the historically accurate 3x3 280mm turrets in game. Gneisenau has 3x2 380mm turrets, the same turrets as the Bismarck, which was actually historically planned for the ships to get. Which, by the way, you can also read on Wikipedia. So I don't see your argument regarding Scharnhorst - and as for Gneisenau, her main guns aren't the reason she is good. She only has 6 barrels to a broadside when the other T7 BBs have 8, and her guns are smaller than their 406mm guns, too.

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Hi all.

I hope the Devs see this thread.

Reguarding the main guns on the Gneisenau and Scharnhorst, they are too powerfull in the game. In reality the ships were equiped with 11 inch guns which is 27,94 cm. In the game the ships are equiped with 15 inch guns.

I have the info about the guns from a book that I have called "Janes fighting ships of World War II". The same info is avaiable in wikipedia.

Best Regards

Frank Petersen aka FrankFly Dk

No. Maybe you should read the stuff shown in game.

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Scharnhorst has the historically accurate 3x3 280mm turrets in game. Gneisenau has 3x2 380mm turrets, the same turrets as the Bismarck, which was actually historically planned for the ships to get. Which, by the way, you can also read on Wikipedia. So I don't see your argument regarding Scharnhorst - and as for Gneisenau, her main guns aren't the reason she is good. She only has 6 barrels to a broadside when the other T7 BBs have 8, and her guns are smaller than their 406mm guns, too.

 

I know this. The guns were never upgraded to to 380mm, there were plans for the upgrade though. The upgrade were planned for both ships, but never carried out.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_battleship_Gneisenau and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_battleship_Scharnhorst

ColonelPete can you give me a link, because I must have missed that info You are refering to.

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I second SaxonHoliday's question of what the problem with the Scharnhorst was in your opinion? That it had 280 mm guns in game while it should have 279.4 mm guns according to your calculations?

About the Gneisenau. You agreed that the upgrade to 380 mm guns was planned, but never carried out. If you have a little look around the tech tree you'll find that WG has gone much further than that on several occasions. In this game you can sail ships that didn't actually ever exist in real life. Now in some of those cases the ships were in reality at least laid down and detailed drawings existed, but on several occasions the ships we have in the tech tree were in reality only design concepts. You don't actually need to look further than the T9 and T10 variants of the German battleship line. Not to mention at least half of all the Russian/Soviet ships...

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I know this. The guns were never upgraded to to 380mm, there were plans for the upgrade though. The upgrade were planned for both ships, but never carried out.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_battleship_Gneisenau and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_battleship_Scharnhorst

ColonelPete can you give me a link, because I must have missed that info You are refering to.

 

It's a marketing tactic.

Wargaming figured they would make the most money by putting the Gneisenau on sale for silver, and the more historically significant Scharnhorst as a premium. then, as an extra incentive only the Scharnhorst was fully historically accurate.

 

also. they are NOT too powerful, the Gneisenau has the fewest and smallest main guns of any tier 7 (non premium) BB and the Scharnhorst has the smallest guns of any tier 7 BB period

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I know this. The guns were never upgraded to to 380mm, there were plans for the upgrade though. The upgrade were planned for both ships, but never carried out.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_battleship_Gneisenau and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_battleship_Scharnhorst

ColonelPete can you give me a link, because I must have missed that info You are refering to.

I cannot link into the game. Scharnhorst clearly shows the correct guns. The description of Gneisenau explains how she got hers.

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Hi all.

I hope the Devs see this thread.

Reguarding the main guns on the Gneisenau and Scharnhorst, they are too powerfull in the game. In reality the ships were equiped with 11 inch guns which is 27,94 cm. In the game the ships are equiped with 15 inch guns.

I have the info about the guns from a book that I have called "Janes fighting ships of World War II". The same info is avaiable in wikipedia.

Best Regards

Frank Petersen aka FrankFly Dk

They already know.

 

Money>Balance>History

 

 

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Money>Balance>History

 

Except on Akizuki where the most important is to have a historic speed even if it means being slower than some BBs :trollface:

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I'm fairly sure FDG the T9 German BB was actually laid down and was intended to be a meatier Bis. 

 

Although the German H Designs were for a world where Germany won WW2 I think..

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I'm fairly sure FDG the T9 German BB was actually laid down and was intended to be a meatier Bis. 

 

Although the German H Designs were for a world where Germany won WW2 I think..

 

Two were laid down in late 1939, and days later construction was halted due to the war. Functionally there is no actual difference between those and Montana which was never laid down (but approved, so the design was final).

 

And no, the H class ships were for a world where the war hadn't started until 1945. That's the basis for Plan Z. Hitler couldn't wait for that, and it is well known that outside 'omg biiiig ships' he barely made any considerations in that direction. So basically, screw Plan Z which threw a wrench into the navy's preparations.

Edited by Unintentional_submarine

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i had gneis and it was completely op, but it had nothing to do with her guns, if anything that was her weakest point. torps, german armor (which is not always good, but its strong anyway), quite maneuverable and fast, decent secondaries, and best of all... crazy strong AA

 

imo gneis needs a nerf, probably on secondaries (dont need them anyway) and AA. i say better keep speed intact, as she prefers close combat so she needs a way to close in relatively fast

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Except on Akizuki where the most important is to have a historic speed even if it means being slower than some BBs :trollface:

 

Well they can always put Super Akizuki as T9 w 36-37 kts speed

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i had gneis and it was completely op, but it had nothing to do with her guns, if anything that was her weakest point. torps, german armor (which is not always good, but its strong anyway), quite maneuverable and fast, decent secondaries, and best of all... crazy strong AA

 

imo gneis needs a nerf, probably on secondaries (dont need them anyway) and AA. i say better keep speed intact, as she prefers close combat so she needs a way to close in relatively fast

 

Gneis is not OP. Gneis has the worst pen, the worst alpha, the worst DPM and the worst dispersion of the T7 battleships. Gneis is fast, tanky and has torpedoes, and if you use those well, you will most likely survive long and leave the battle having done a good bit of damage - however, your teammates all died to the enemies that your pitiful guns couldn't kill (closing to torpedo/secondary range is not possible most of the time). That's why your WR won't be through the roof.

I'm fairly sure FDG the T9 German BB was actually laid down and was intended to be a meatier Bis. 

 

Although the German H Designs were for a world where Germany won WW2 I think..

 

They were. It's even possible to visit the guns today in Harstad, Norway. :)

20161704231802.jpg?itok=XI9meRDP

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It's a marketing tactic.

Wargaming figured they would make the most money by putting the Gneisenau on sale for silver, and the more historically significant Scharnhorst as a premium. then, as an extra incentive only the Scharnhorst was fully historically accurate.

 

also. they are NOT too powerful, the Gneisenau has the fewest and smallest main guns of any tier 7 (non premium) BB and the Scharnhorst has the smallest guns of any tier 7 BB period

 

To be fair it has the lowest calibre main guns of any battleship in the game, not that it prevents it from being ungodly good though:tea_cap:

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To me there is only one issue

Scharnhorst Nothing wrong here ship as as she was

Gneisenau she should have started with Historic guns and had the big boys as an upgrade

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Scharnhorst has the historically accurate 3x3 280mm turrets in game. Gneisenau has 3x2 380mm turrets, the same turrets as the Bismarck, which was actually historically planned for the ships to get.

 

I'll never get tired of trying to shoot down that myth. I know what wikipedia says, but wikipedia has the nasty tendence of perpetuating myths that aren't really true.

 

The Scharnhorst twins were never "planned" to get 15'' turrets. They were designed, intentionally, as undergunned battleships because of several reasons:

 

a) The Scharnhorsts design began as a bigger, more powerful, Panzerschiffe, so the starting point already included those guns (in a similar configuration to that of the Deutschland class)

 

b) Germany had not designed a modern turret for anything bigger than 11.1'' by the time the design was complete

 

c) Germany didn't want to get the british too worried about their naval growth. The initial expansion of the Kriegsmarine was intended to dominate the Baltic and counter the french navy, not to challenge the Royal Navy. The Scharnhorsts were designed as counters for the Dunkerque class, and given Dunkerque's light armor, 280mm guns were thought as good enough, while were too small to worry the british too much.

 

 

Germany completed the design of the 15'' twin turret that later was installed on the Bismarcks when the Scharnhorsts had already been laid down and were being constructed. At that point it was noted that the barbette sizes for the 15'' turret were similar enough to those of the 280mm triple turret to allow for interchangeability without too much cost. Modifications were needed, and it wasn't exactly an easy swap, but both turrets could fit in the turret wells of the Twins allowing for a possible upgunning of the ships. But this was accidental - the ships weren't designed with this turret swap in mind (like the Mogami was, for instance). And certainly at no point they were officially "planned" to be upgunned. Not until 1942, and only Gneisenau. There's absolutely no official kriegsmarine documents which mention this possible upgunning as anything other than a possible upgrade for the future.

But there were no plans laid for when, or how, that upgrade would take place. Again, until 1942, and again, only on Gneisenau.

 

And it's very understandable that those plans were never more than "considered". The turrets were the most expensive, costly, and complicated items to manufacture in a battleship, to the point that several battleships actually didn't get to exist because their building nations couldn't spare the ludicrous resources needed to build their turrets (prime instance: the british HMS Lion class battleships). Germany naval manufacture capacity was already far overstressed by the kriegsmarine expansion as it was (the intended "plan Z" was nothing but castles in the sky, Germany didn't have the shipbuilding capability to fullfit it). Building six extra 15'' turrets, plus the guns, plus the spares, to upgun the Scharnhorsts was far down in the very long list of Kriegsmarine resource allocation priorities.

 

as far as 1939 (WW2 start), no official plan for that upgunning had been laid. It still was an idea that the KM was willing to go for in the future if possible - but nothing solid was decided about it. And once the war began the whole idea was never given even a 2nd thought as such a regunning would've needed a very long refit time and Germany needed those ships operational on the ongoing war. And that was it.

 

Until February 1942, shortly after the famous Channel Dash. Bomber Command paid a visit to the port were Gneisenau was drydocked to repair some of the damage she sustained during the move from France to Germany. One bomb found it's way into Anton's turret magazine blowing up the whole turret and detonating the ammo stores. The whole front section of the ship was trashed beyond economical repair and, had the ship not been at drydock it'd been pretty much a repeat of the USS Arizona at Pearl Harbor.

The damage was castastrophic: post-attack damage reports estimated at least 3 years of dedicated work to bring the ship back to full operational status. And it was at this point (not before) that the upgunning to the 380mm was actually planned for and given the get go, because the ship was going nowhere anyway.

 

Why now and not before?. Easy to explain: up to 1939 the Kriegsmarine had it's hands full with building the Bismarck twins, the planned "H-39" battleships, the Hipper cruiser class, several batches of destroyers, two aircraft carriers and of course the U-boat fleet. Moreover, they were well into the first stages of "plan Z" ,a grandiose megalomaniacal expansion they simply couldn't actually fullfit, yet they had to try because that was what Berlin wanted. At that point they simply had no resources to spare, and no actual reason to excuse the big investment, into building 15'' turrets for the Scharnhorsts that would've needed a very lenghty refit in drydock later to actually put on the sihps.

 

In 1942 the "H" battleships had been cancelled, no further work on big ships was being carried out, and the industrial base that until 1940 had been dedicated to build big naval guns and turrets now had nothing to do. With an estimated repair time of 3 years there was plenty of time to build and fit those three turrets for the Gneisenau, taking advantage of her turret wells being of a size close enough to make them compatible with the turrets.

 

The Scharnhorst, on the other hand, was never intended to receive those turrets. She soldiered on with 280mm until lost at Cape North.

 

 

TL, DR: The 11'' triple turret and the 15'' dual turret, by coincidence, happened to have barbette diameters close enough to make them theoretically compatible for the turret wells of the Scharnhorst class battleships. There was some consideration of a possible upgunning later during the ships' lifetime (possibly during a mid-life refit), but it was never serious, it was never firm, and it was never official. It was never anything more than a "we could do that at some point but for now we can't spare the time or resources, nor we can withdraw our only existing battleships from active duty to do the swap anyway".

 

And that was until Gneisenau was pretty much blown up at harbor and then they said "well, given it's going to cost us a fortune to repair it and is going to take 3 years, why not upgunning her anyway".

 

But the ships were never "planned" for that upgunning.

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