SMS Lützow - a good Premium Ship :-)

[1MajorKoenig]

 

 

 

Historical Background:

SMS Lützow was the second Derfflinger class and while she was commissioned into the High Seas Fleet in August 1915 it was not until end of February 1916 that she became operational due to damages during her trials. SMS Lützow took part took part in the bombardment of Yarmouth and Lowestoft but her tragic moment of glory came as the flagship of the victorious Scouting Forces at the battle of Jutland on 31-May-1916. Her unit successfully spotted and engaged the numerical superior British Battlecruiser forces first despite a range disadvantage and blew up two of the British Capital ships in quick succession, “HMS Indefatigable” and “HMS Queen Mary”. A third British battlecruiser “HMS Invincible” exploded about 2h later under the fire of the German battlecruisers which in return received substantial punishment from the entire British battlefleet. Lützow suffered multiple underwater hits including hits to the forward torpedo room and attempted to withdraw home. Heroic efforts to save the ships during the night were ultimately unsuccessful and the ships had to be scuttled before the break of dawn.

 

 

 

The DERFFLINGER-Class:

Derfflinger marks a new generation of German battlecruisers after the first generation ships represented by Blücher to Seydlitz. The Derfflingers featured bigger guns (8 of the well-known high speed 30.5cm SK L/50) arranged in an all-centerline super firing A-B-X-Y-configuration. As typical for ships of that period the Derfflingers featured a casemated secondary battery and underwater torpedo tubes (which ultimately doomed SMS Lützow). The ships featured a heavy 300mm belt which is comparable to contemporary British Dreadnoughts and high speed around 28kn. Trials were a bit lower around 26kn but were conducted in shallow water under war-time conditions which translates roughly into a 2kn higher top speed under normal conditions. All in all the Derfflingers were an exceptionally successful design that distinguished itself in battle and formed the basis for most following battlecruiser designs, such as the Mackensens. Given Germany’s difficult situation of operating a defense-oriented battlefleet against a passive enemy who was head and shoulders over the HSF numerically, the high speed of the Derfflingers was a huge Advantage over the battleships, a fact that shows in the unusual active service records for capital ships of that time or even capital ships in general.

 

 

Proposed implementation into World of Warships:

HP: 42,000

Armor: 300mm max (belt) + Turtleback

Speed: 28kn

Armament: 4x2 30.5cm SK L/50 (reload 26s / range 12km / max dispersion 164m / sigma 1.9 – about half way between König and König Albert) plus 12 x 15cm SK L/45 (4km base range)

With about 31.000t deep load her health pool could be around a healthy 42k HP. Her 300mm belt armor and turtleback armor will make her almost invulnerable to critical citadel hits at T4. Torpedo protection was good by the standards of 1914 but would most likely translate into some 25% like the other German Capital ships. Her primary artillery would be fast firing – assumption would be the “reduced” reload time of 26s as on Kaiser and König would be applied and could behave similar to König Alberts shells (AP alpha of 8300). Her turrets – in line with the other German Battleships would turn rather slow (eg. 60sec for a 180° turn). The penetration of the 30.5cm won’t be an issue as she would face T3-5 only in her tier. Peculiar about the ship would be a T3 like short firing range of about 12km. This would be due to the fact that Lützow didn’t receive a high up artillery director on a tripod mast like her sisters after Jutland. In consequence her range finders are comparable in height to König Albert which translates into the short gun range. However she would be far better able to compensate for that with high speed to get in quickly or retreat if needed. Her secondary battery would consist of the usual 15cm SK L/45 with a abase range of 4km that can be pushed to 5km by flags and captain skills. Being a 1916 battlecruiser she would have almost no AA to speak of. Handling-wise SMS Lützow would be very fast driving straight (28kn) but relatively sluggish while turning. Historically the ship turned well but was slow to answer the helm as the tandem rudders were not in direct prop wash. This drawback should be modelled in WOWS as well and would translate into a bad rudder shift time.

As a special “gimmick” the ship would have access to the “Speed Boost” consumable.

 

 

Summary:

Lützow would be the perfect candidate for a Tier 4 premium ship and an intriguing vessel. She’d have some pronounced strength and weaknesses and would offer a unique playstyle. She would be a fast but slow turning ship. She would mount fast firing and relatively accurate 30.5cm rifles but suffering from a very short firing range which she would need to compensate by high speed. Her unique speed boost consumable would help her to charge in and out quickly into fights.

 

Thanks for reading and looking forward to your thoughts on this :-)

 

[Mucker]

Certainly a possibility, however I'd prefer either Moltke or Seydlitz in the T4 BC spot, mainly because of the 10 gun broadside of quick firing 28 cm rifles. Just for the special flavor... 

[Jellicoe1916]

I would love a Lutzow, only German BC sunk at Jutland, now she lies on the bottom upside down and has suffered illegal salvage

 

[1MajorKoenig]

Certainly a possibility, however I'd prefer either Moltke or Seydlitz in the T4 BC spot, mainly because of the 10 gun broadside of quick firing 28 cm rifles. Just for the special flavor... 

 

I would like her because she is pretty much our only hope to get a real Derfflinger. In case WG would implement a BC silver line they would certainly ruin her appearance beyond recognition trying to mock up a WW2 version of the ship. So a T4 premium is the maximum we can hope for.

 

Moltke will probably be in the tree at some point which would leave Seydlitz as another great premium candidate. However for me it would be Luetzow :-)

[anonym_u5USg8CcK96I]

The Derfflinger class is easily the best battlecruiser design of WW1 and I would love to see one ingame.Von der Tann would also be good but sadly WG tend to focus on WW2 as the core of the game, with the dreadnought era as an afterthought.

Like you say if they made a silver line they would make a fantasy refit and ruin the ship (like Kaiser and Konig for example).I'm kind of dreading what they will do to the British battleships when they are released, I just hope they don't go to overboard with the fantasy refits.

[1MajorKoenig]

Well... Orion and Iron Duke are f** I guess... :-)

 

EDIT: the smiley is not because it's funny but because I am drunk 

[puxflacet]

you have thumbs up from me sir

[1MajorKoenig]

Thank you sir :-)

[Webley_Mark]

Why not! After all, she is good looking... For a german.

 

[1MajorKoenig]

Why not! After all, she is good looking... For a german.

 

C'mon if the Derfflingers are not pure elegance... than who else?!

 

 

[Webley_Mark]

C'mon if the Derfflingers are not pure elegance... than who else?!

 

The Hood. Of course my dear.

[Combat_Hamster]

An  interesting  thread,  when  the  German  BBs  came  up  I  tried  to do a  doodle  of a  modernised  Koening  along  the  lines of a  'Cavour',  with 4  turrets  upgunned to  14"  and  a  potential speed  of 27 knots ( for the  sake of arguement  I ignored  the  fact  that  the barbette diameter  is  fixed  once  the ship is built  so  you are truly stuffed  with putting bigger  turrets on it ).  I think in reality  the  Germans would have  scrapped everything before  the Bayerns,  in terms of  capital ships,  but  would  have  kept  Hindenberg  and  Derfflinger,  they could have been modernised with improved  shells and more elevation and still been viable in ~WW2.  I think she would be a  tier 5  rather  than tier 4.  ( 2.0 sigma  for Hood! )

 

[1MajorKoenig]

An  interesting  thread,  when  the  German  BBs  came  up  I  tried  to do a  doodle  of a  modernised  Koening  along  the  lines of a  'Cavour',  with 4  turrets  upgunned to  14"  and  a  potential speed  of 27 knots ( for the  sake of arguement  I ignored  the  fact  that  the barbette diameter  is  fixed  once  the ship is built  so  you are truly stuffed  with putting bigger  turrets on it ).  I think in reality  the  Germans would have  scrapped everything before  the Bayerns,  in terms of  capital ships,  but  would  have  kept  Hindenberg  and  Derfflinger,  they could have been modernised with improved  shells and more elevation and still been viable in ~WW2.  I think she would be a  tier 5  rather  than tier 4.  ( 2.0 sigma  for Hood! )

 

 

Yes well. The tree / silver ship will most likely be a Tier 5 as you said and WG will likely modernize (=f*** up) the ship into some Stalinist Gangut Fantasy. She might be a faster Koenig gameplay wise with the same great 2.0 Sigma as Koenig. Remember she only has four 30.5 twin turrets on T5.

 

However, as I am more on the ship lovers side than the stats lovers side I would love to see an unaltered Derfflinger class Battlecruiser as they were in WW1. And the only potential way that would ever happen would be the Koenig Albert way I guess.

[Combat_Hamster]

 

Yes well. The tree / silver ship will most likely be a Tier 5 as you said and WG will likely modernize (=f*** up) the ship into some Stalinist Gangut Fantasy. She might be a faster Koenig gameplay wise with the same great 2.0 Sigma as Koenig. Remember she only has four 30.5 twin turrets on T5.

 

However, as I am more on the ship lovers side than the stats lovers side I would love to see an unaltered Derfflinger class Battlecruiser as they were in WW1. And the only potential way that would ever happen would be the Koenig Albert way I guess.

I  bought  Koenig  Albert  as  I wanted  a  'proper'  ship,  looking at  what  they did  with  the 'upgraded'  Kaiser...I looked  at  the  AA director  positions........good luck expecting  them  to  work  the first time  you fire  the wing  turrets  forward/aft  of  the beam....

[1MajorKoenig]

I  bought  Koenig  Albert  as  I wanted  a  'proper'  ship,  looking at  what  they did  with  the 'upgraded'  Kaiser...I looked  at  the  AA director  positions........good luck expecting  them  to  work  the first time  you fire  the wing  turrets  forward/aft  of  the beam....

 

Not only that. Also the placement of the heavy AA has bad firing sectors.

 

And the A turret's rangefinder blocks the view from the bridge. These refits don't make any sense sadly.

[anonym_u5USg8CcK96I]

Well... Orion and Iron Duke are f** I guess... :-)

 

EDIT: the smiley is not because it's funny but because I am drunk

 

It's almost certain that Orion and Iron Duke will suffer from Wargaming "engineering".My only hope is that they leave Bellerophon alone, as they did with Nassau.

[VC381]

The thing with the fantasy upgrades is that for the German ships they literally had to make them up and used elements that don't make sense given the designs of the existing and later ships. For the RN ships, they have real classes that were upgraded so there is no excuse. Iron Duke did not serve long enough to get a Warspite style bridge in real life, but a) it's not complete fantasy to assume she might have and b) it's not a bad look.

 

Back on topic, I would love a Lutzow and always thought she would be a much cooler and more unque T4 premium than KA. But only if there's a Lion as well

[Gnirf]

I would certainly liked to have one of Derfflinger class or Seydlitz in original config

 

Why Seydlitz? Perhaps the most damaged BB/BC returning to port and fight again. It must be said that if the damage had been done further away I doubt that they would make it (Out in the Atlantic) as she was virtually sinking when she were back to port (going aground f.e.) Forecastle Awash at speed etc. If one looks at the diagram on p 174 in the excellent book on German battlecruisers of World war 1 by Gary Staff and read the text it is really only through excellent efforts that she made it.

 

The near disastrous turret hit at Dogger bank is also a reason that she is well Worth a game (automatic Juliet Charlie flag?).

 

 

[Jellicoe1916]

Didn't Lutzow get scuttled with Men still alive below decks who they couldn't get out? Could here them Singing through the voice pipes as she sank

[G01ngToxicCommand0]

I would certainly liked to have one of Derfflinger class or Seydlitz in original config

 

Why Seydlitz? Perhaps the most damaged BB/BC returning to port and fight again. It must be said that if the damage had been done further away I doubt that they would make it (Out in the Atlantic) as she was virtually sinking when she were back to port (going aground f.e.) Forecastle Awash at speed etc. If one looks at the diagram on p 174 in the excellent book on German battlecruisers of World war 1 by Gary Staff and read the text it is really only through excellent efforts that she made it.

 

 

The near disastrous turret hit at Dogger bank is also a reason that she is well Worth a game (automatic Juliet Charlie flag?).

 

 

 

 

It was only due to the low depths in the channel on the way back to harbour that the SMS Seydlits didn't founder; had the battle been a few more miles out west she would have sunk before reaching Wilhemshaven.

 

Didn't Lutzow get scuttled with Men still alive below decks who they couldn't get out? Could here them Singing through the voice pipes as she sank

So the story goes, poor bastards.

[RAMJB]

T5 ship. Not T4. This was the König's battlecruiser "counterpart". Trading 2 less guns for a 28-29knot topspeed and keeping the trademark very tough armor the german ships had seems perfectly balanced for T5, specially keeping in mind how accurate the 12'' guns on the König are.

 

Would be like a (much) better protected, lighter armed Kongo, in fact. And let's not forget which was it's direct counterpart: the Lion class BC. Both are far too good for T4.

[Trainspite]

T5 ship. Not T4. This was the König's battlecruiser "counterpart". Trading 2 less guns for a 28-29knot topspeed and keeping the trademark very tough armor the german ships had seems perfectly balanced for T5, specially keeping in mind how accurate the 12'' guns on the König are.

 

Would be like a (much) better protected, lighter armed Kongo, in fact. And let's not forget which was it's direct counterpart: the Lion class BC. Both are far too good for T4.

 

Derfflinger should be tier 5, but given the trend with Konig Albert and the rest of the German BBs, Derfflinger & Moltke probably will not receive historical hulls at tiers 5 and 4 respectively because "reasons". So Lutzow is a nerfed historical/stock Derfflinger at tier 4, that is probably not as OP per tier as the Albert is, but still pretty strong. 

 

Seydlitz is the ideal tier 4 candidate though. I would definitely buy that one.

 

Lion is probably a tier 4 however. She fires the lighter 13.5" shell compared to Tiger, which should be the RN tier 5 with the heavier 13.5" and improved all around stats. The difference is the same for separating Orion from KGV(1912) and Iron Duke. 

 

Queen Mary is the premium in this case, tier 4 too. Like Lion minus any fictional AA upgrades, but with the heavier shells.

[puxflacet]

RAMJB, on 02 April 2017 - 02:29 PM, said:

T5 ship. Not T4.

 

t4 for sure. because:

• closer to where she should be placed timeline-wise
• pretty nonexistent aa
• rather lowi-ish range due to ww1 rangefinders and gun elevation

...and i certainly dont want any fictional refit on her

[RAMJB]

 

Derfflinger should be tier 5, but given the trend with Konig Albert and the rest of the German BBs, Derfflinger & Moltke probably will not receive historical hulls at tiers 5 and 4 respectively because "reasons". So Lutzow is a nerfed historical/stock Derfflinger at tier 4, that is probably not as OP per tier as the Albert is, but still pretty strong. 

 

Seydlitz is the ideal tier 4 candidate though. I would definitely buy that one.

 

Lion is probably a tier 4 however. She fires the lighter 13.5" shell compared to Tiger, which should be the RN tier 5 with the heavier 13.5" and improved all around stats. The difference is the same for separating Orion from KGV(1912) and Iron Duke. 

 

Queen Mary is the premium in this case, tier 4 too. Like Lion minus any fictional AA upgrades, but with the heavier shells.

 

The Lion Class battlecruisers had the same BL 13.5 inch MkV gun HMS Tiger was armed with, and could fire the same shells Tiger could fire. Including the 1400lbs shell. The difference between those two classes came from the bigger, but fewer, secondaries in HMS Tiger and (very) marginal improved armor in certain places. Other than that both classes were pretty much the same stuff. As for the secondary "upgrade" it was a changeover from 16 4'' guns to 12 6'' guns, which, in-game, actually favors Lion (the 6'' would fire AP because of "reasons", and there are less guns overall, while the 4'' would fire HE. Which, obviously, is better for secondary batteries)

 

And in fact you're kind of making my point here as the Lion and Tiger classes were pretty much the equivalent of the Kongo class (which other than having marginally better protection and a bigger caliber - but almost equal shell weight, is the equal of the british battlecruiser).  If the Kongo class is Tier 5, the Tiger/Lion should be, by force, tier 5 too.

[SmartassNoob]

More somewhat decent pictures of either it or a Derfflinger: