What's wrong with CV's and why 6.3 won't be fixing it. (By Femennenly)

[Horin728]

THIS POST IS OVERTAKEN FROM THE NA FORUMS WITH PERMISSION FROM FEMENNENLY!!!

 

Introduction to the issue.

There is always 2 sides to every story and the issues existing around CV's is no exception to this. One side says CV's are overpowered, the other claims that CV's are underpowered/useless. This is not a tier by tier issue either, its a class issue, an issue that extends from 4-10, from skilled players to non-skilled players. Now, what authority do I have on the topic? Well, at the end of the day, its an opinion, but an opinion based on experience of over 4000 games, 1800 being T6, 1800 in T9/10. In this particular case, neither side of the story is wrong. There are some serious issues present with CVs, CV players and how they are perceived in the community.

 

Matchmaking and Seal Clubbing Issues:

There is no denying that high levels of low tier CV playing is done by experienced CV drivers who have already progressed through the tech tree and returned to these lower tiers. In recent patches the power creep of AA at higher tiers have left a lot of CV players discontented with playing high tiers (this isn't going to turn into a Lower AA PLZ WG, don't worry) and returning back to the level's where it is reasonable. The unfortunate outcome of this, these players who have progressed KNOW how to do what would be considered the basic functionality of CV (Plane management, manual dropping and basic UI functionalities) basically ruin the chances for other players to practice and learn CV's by just bullying them with fighters and farming Clear Skies flags. The unfortunate outcome of this, the newer players go "Hmm, well, whats the fun in this" and return back to other classes, which unfortunately increases the issue in the end because with less high tier CV players we're again forced into lower tiers to play in a class we like.

 

But Fem, there is seal clubbers in every class of ship what makes CV seal clubbers any worse than them? At low tiers the AA defense on ships is minimal (sometimes non-existent). If I wanted to I could join any T4 game, snipe the CV and end every game with multiple kills just through knowing CV mechanics. In other ships seal clubbers will be limited to the area they spawn/move to, CV's can go everywhere.

So then the answer is simple, remove manual drops at this tier and let new people play the class, it will force high tier players out and at T6 they can learn. - Much love WG. This solution proposed by WG will only make the issue worse. New players will jump in their T4/5s, grind them out thinking "Launch planes, click ship, move the angling tab, and hope something hits - got it", They finally get their shiny new Independence or Ryujo in port, get thrown into MM with T8 ships with substantial AA and meet those high tier players that have been pushed from the T4/5 bracket and suddenly everything is changed, auto drops are no longer effective and they haven't the opportunity to learn the vital manual drops and strafes in a slower game environment.

The issue that existed at T4/5 has now been moved to T6, and nothing is fixed.

 

 

Disparity in Skill levels:

The disparity in skill levels is a big issue when it comes to the the CV power argument. The number of battles I've gone into and seen someone saying "Oh we have [player name] as CV, we're going to win" or vice versa "You have [name] we're screwed". I am a true believe in the idea that "ANYONE can be a CV player", but that's not to say you should be able to jump into a T10 one and be able to beat a player who has hundreds of games in them. The issue is, there lacks proper instruction of how to improve in CV's. BBs/CAs/DDs all have a very instinctive learning method - that shell fell short? I need to aim a little closer, etc. The first time I ever played CVs I had no idea what an manual drop is, there is no prompt. The first time I played a CA, I click my mouse, it shoots - got it, I move my mouse, where I aim changes. The only reason I learnt how to play CVs is someone told me about alt drops and basic strategy. Unless you take the effort as a new player to google/youtube/forum it, there is no instinctive learning for the CV class. There are very few opponents I actually enjoy playing against due to this skill gap, there is no challenge and I know I'm making the issue worse. 

 

How am I making the issue worse? Imagine running a race against another, you believe you're even matched, the gun fires and before you know it they are halfway along the track leaving you in the dust. Its disheartening, it makes you never want to run again, why would you be put in this situation - yes. good old MM. I have mostly stopped playing CVs under T9 in fear of scaring off learning players. I want the community to grow and more CV players to feel confident to play high tiers so that ultimately there are more people playing high tier CVs. The ships themselves are not under or over powered, it is often the skill of the captain behind them that determine their effect on the battle.

 

Many people have told me that they think CVs should be more RNG - so that anyone can play them, and be good at them. Like with any other class, those who have put time in to learn them will play better in them and I do not think this should the case. The good players should not be knocked down to accommodate the learning players, instead learning players should be supported in their growth to become a better player.

 

Improving captain skill the the ONLY way to reduce what can be perceived as one player being considered overpowered or not. So how can skill be improved? Well Rome wasn't built in a day and not everyone can be the best at everything but there are ways to channel skill growth as outlined below.

 

The Solution? 
Isn't and easy one, and actually goes against what WG has suggested in their 6.3 patch. I believe that:

1. Automatic drops should be moved to an attained skill/module or commander skill.
2. A "Target practice" scenario be developed for CVs.
3. T4 load outs remove all fighters - both nations, increase AA on CV.
4. Release of official WG tutorials.

 

1:

Automatic drops do have their place in the game, however they are currently over relied on by new players who ONLY use them, they are the crutch that gets them through the game.
Automatic drops are useful when:

• Your ship is about to die so you can give one last order to those planes and get their payload off
• You want to set a squad to do something while you deal with more valuable squads.
• You want to do a manual drop from outside the map boarder.

However they are not useful when used consistently, by removing them as a default option it will force new CV players to learn the art of manual dropping in the lower stress environment of T4 battles.

By moving them to a module skill or a commander skill CV drivers can determine whether they want to use the ability or not - as it does have its uses.

 

2:

While not necessary due to the training room capabilities having a tutorial scenario where manual drops are taught (doesn't have to be too in depth) with this possibility being a requirement before taking CVs into random battles will ensure every CV player knows how to place their attacks. The amount of CV players at T6/7/8 using auto-attacks still baffles me.

 

3:

I do agree there is a sealclubbing issue at T4, by removing fighters will give new players a chance to play and learn the class with little interruption from seal clubbers farming flags. The obvious retaliation is "oh I'll just snipe the CV then" - Increase the ship AA to balance the lack of fighters and help reduce snipe chances.

 

4: 
Highlighted tutorials that clearly show different aspects of CV play and how to do basic functions - manual drops, cross drops, strafes, etc will give new or interested captains an easy avenue for learning more.

 

---

 

6.3 is bringing some interesting changes for CVs and some of the changes I think are refreshing - alt clicking out of locked fighters and an alternative control interface are refreshing additions, however core issues that create skill disparity and discontentment for both CV and regular players still exist despite proposed changes. I'm super interested to hear what you all think about the upcoming proposed CV changes in 6.3 and what you think would be the best way for WG to tackle the disparity between skilled and learning players.

 

The economy is a whole different situation that I'd prefer to save for another post at this point.

[Horin728]

I feel like this discussion, should be on the EU forums too, I myself quite agree with Fems points, especially with the removal of the manual drops.

 

WG, seriously, this is not the way to solve the issue!

 

I have posted much more detailed and comprehensive posts in the 6.3 thread, and Fem actually quite captures the problems and solutions that I feel would be great.

 

How will a T5 CV fare in a T6 match? Imagine having 2 CVs per side, one t5 one t6, one can strafe, one can't.. In the same battle... Come on.

[xXx_Blogis_xXx]

more , aa for low tier cv sure good idea , but it wont save you , sadly auto drop +- can be easy evaded , and new players now wont learn at all ,,,,

[kfa]

WG should remove the torp predictor on lower tiers for players who played more then 2000 battles, decrease the range of BBs by 40%, and the rate of fire of Cruisers by 50%.

 

You know... just to be fair to all classes and all sealclubbers... and lets see what the community has to say about it.

[Zenturio52]

1:

Automatic drops do have their place in the game, however they are currently over relied on by new players who ONLY use them, they are the crutch that gets them through the game.
Automatic drops are useful when:

• Your ship is about to die so you can give one last order to those planes and get their payload off
• You want to set a squad to do something while you deal with more valuable squads.
• You want to do a manual drop from outside the map boarder.

However they are not useful when used consistently, by removing them as a default option it will force new CV players to learn the art of manual dropping in the lower stress environment of T4 battles.

By moving them to a module skill or a commander skill CV drivers can determine whether they want to use the ability or not - as it does have its uses.

 

2:

While not necessary due to the training room capabilities having a tutorial scenario where manual drops are taught (doesn't have to be too in depth) with this possibility being a requirement before taking CVs into random battles will ensure every CV player knows how to place their attacks. The amount of CV players at T6/7/8 using auto-attacks still baffles me.

 

3:

I do agree there is a sealclubbing issue at T4, by removing fighters will give new players a chance to play and learn the class with little interruption from seal clubbers farming flags. The obvious retaliation is "oh I'll just snipe the CV then" - Increase the ship AA to balance the lack of fighters and help reduce snipe chances.

 

4: 
Highlighted tutorials that clearly show different aspects of CV play and how to do basic functions - manual drops, cross drops, strafes, etc will give new or interested captains an easy avenue for learning more.

1: Good Idea. You could also enable autodrops at t6 or so.

2: I agree

3: I think you have to do even more. Just 1 CV per Team so no t5 fighter can farm poor t4, def. AA for all CVs and removing fighters at t4.

You also could 'promote' players with a WR above 65 and more than 70 games on a t4 or t5 CV.

Like (for me and my Hosho): Gratulations High command promoted you to a higher rank and gave you a new ship. You get now controll over the Zuiho but won't be able to keep or purchase the Hosho. Additionally you earned 500.000 credits for your service.

So the player gets the new ship for free and a reward (like aditional credits?) but can't use the older ship. Is he also to good with Zuiho he will get then the Ryujo and won't be able to keep the Zuiho. From t6 on the player can't get promoted.

4: Tutorials not just for CVs. Other players need to learn how to evade or defend against CV attacks.

[eliastion]

more , aa for low tier cv sure good idea , but it wont save you , sadly auto drop +- can be easy evaded , and new players now wont learn at all ,,,,

 

What you're forgetting is that the idea isn't necessarily to make a snipe impossible - it's to make it unattractive as an option for the sealclubber. Imagine a t4 CV with defensive AA consumable and a bit improved AA. What does it mean at these tiers? Well, it's literally the toughest ship to attack with planes! It will take a lot of time to fly your planes to him, THEN you need to wait through the consumable (probably losing a couple planes on first approach unless he panicks and gets baited to use it prematurely) and then you need to snipe (losing even more planes and on low tiers reserves are very limited)... and he's quite likely to still survive since the striking power of a CV at this tier isn't so great! 

CVs not having fighters would take them off each other's back initially and make the CV low tier play more forgiving. It should be accompanied by reduced alpha potential (simply less damage from low tier bombs and torps) so that it would be easier to:

 - deal SOME damage

 - keep your planes alive

but at the same time harder to:

 - completely dictate the battle

 - overwhelm enemy CV through your superior CV skills

 

I don't agree with all the points from the opening post (auto drops as a captain skill? Surely not) but the general philosophy behind it has its merits.

[Admiral_H_Nelson]

 

What you're forgetting is that the idea isn't necessarily to make a snipe impossible - it's to make it unattractive as an option for the sealclubber. Imagine a t4 CV with defensive AA consumable and a bit improved AA. What does it mean at these tiers? Well, it's literally the toughest ship to attack with planes! It will take a lot of time to fly your planes to him, THEN you need to wait through the consumable (probably losing a couple planes on first approach unless he panicks and gets baited to use it prematurely) and then you need to snipe (losing even more planes and on low tiers reserves are very limited)... and he's quite likely to still survive since the striking power of a CV at this tier isn't so great! 

CVs not having fighters would take them off each other's back initially and make the CV low tier play more forgiving. It should be accompanied by reduced alpha potential (simply less damage from low tier bombs and torps) so that it would be easier to:

 - deal SOME damage

 - keep your planes alive

but at the same time harder to:

 - completely dictate the battle

 - overwhelm enemy CV through your superior CV skills

 

I don't agree with all the points from the opening post (auto drops as a captain skill? Surely not) but the general philosophy behind it has its merits.

 

Excellent post!   (as was the OP's comments at the top)

 

I wrote this in another (current) thread:

"IMHO Wargaming cannot solve the problem of fitting CVs into the game properly unless they stop this arrogant idea that they know everything and don't need to listen to anyone about game design.

They should be getting experienced CV players involved in a carrier redesign, making use of the vast fund of expertise that these players have."

http://forum.worldofwarships.eu/index.php?/topic/76499-war-gamings-plan-to-facilitate-high-tiered-carrier-seal-clubbing/#topmost

 

Your post is exactly what I was thinking about!    Good ideas, with solid reasons for them. At the very least a basis for discussion.

[Z_OnkelE]

My biggest issue remains: the problem with reliability. Those planes have a mind of their own. Either refusing to execute orders or taking their time doing loop after loop even though the command was given when they were at least another half diameter of the attack circle away from the attack circle itself. And too many interactions are governed by RNG: dive bombers completely, torpedo bombers by their flooding chance and even fighters shoot down other planes in a Bernoulli process-like manner ("that plane is down, that plane is not down, that...") much like anti-air auras work in general. So there is just plenty of room to get screwed over by RNG... Hooray!

[Capra76]

Interesting stuff, however:

 

T4 load outs remove all fighters - both nations, increase AA on CV.

 

This is what is known as a CV truce, where both CV agree not to shoot down each other's planes and simply farm damage and kills from each other's teams, this is not something that should be brought into the game because quite frankly it's not fair to the other players who end up being farmed.

 

If anything T4 should be fighters only, that way players can learn the basics of air warfare, once they've mastered that then they can move up to higher tiers and start learning about strikes.

 

[iJoby]

If anything T4 should be fighters only, that way players can learn the basics of air warfare, once they've mastered that then they can move up to higher tiers and start learning about strikes.

 

Hmmm, that's kind of like saying, yes, you can play football, but you can only use a ball once you have learned to kick. 

 

[Cpt_Andre]

T4: DB and TB only

(Newbies can focus 100% on their attack skills, as compensation their damage output is reduced)

 

T5: DB and TB; and Fighters without Strafe

(Newbies learn now the impact of the fighters. Defending their planes and other comrades)

 

T6+: DB, TB and Fighters (like right now)

[dasCKD]

What do you think of defensive fire on low tiered cruisers from tier 4 and up, like the Yubari has? Their AA is nowhere near strong enough to really melt planes the same way a Cleveland can, and newer carrier captains will be able to learn about defensive fire before facing the AA monsters at tier 6 and 7. It would also mean that lower tiered cruiser captains have more of a chance to protect themselves.

[dasCKD]

If anything T4 should be fighters only, that way players can learn the basics of air warfare, once they've mastered that then they can move up to higher tiers and start learning about strikes.

 

That's a terrible idea. It teaches bad habits and gives newer players the wrong idea of what their primary duties are as a carrier player. In this game, doing damage is your primary duty in all classes, protecting your allies from damage is secondary. The reason for this is simple. You will always fail to do some of the damage you want to do or you will fail at protecting your allies from the damage completely. When you failed to do all of the damage you wanted to do, you are still advancing your team's chance of success. When you are doing nothing but trying to protect you allies, you are simply slowing the inevitable crawl of the enemy team towards their victory. Teaching carrier players to play defensively is perhaps the worst thing you can do. First you need to teach a player what they should be doing, then you should teach them how to stop the enemy from doing it. That is the correct order to this.

[Sargento_YO]

I agree removing manual drop its quite stupid.

 

About your ideas, about removing fighter planes in tier 4. Then what happens when tier 4 carriers meet tier 5 ones? Zuiho/Bogue will beat the crap out of them, these tier 4 planes would be sitting ducks in a shooting gallery.

(As a matter of fact I tried the Public test and the same thing happened when I entered into my Independence which could manually attack and meet tier 5 carriers. Dude, I never felt so gulty by seal clubbing before, I mean, perhaps I almost did it in my Zuiho, but didn´t felt bad because the enemy had exactly the same tools than me. But not on this match)

[waxx25]

I agree with everything the OP says.

[iJoby]

T5: DB and TB; and Fighters without Strafe

 

(Newbies learn now the impact of the fighters. Defending their planes and other comrades)

 

  Seriously bad Idea, as was the T4 one.

[Gobbernator]

After playing about 11 or so matches on the PT server, mostly with the Zuhio (some with the bogue and ryujo), a reasonable conclusion of its implementation makes further changes necessary. 

 

1. CVs should reward less xp when killed by other ships. At t4 and t5 CVs now have exactly the same technical capabilites as bots. Killing a CV at that tier should be rewarded similar to killing a CV bot in coop - about half of what it is now.

2. In game modes that reward or detract points for killing ships, the points awarded or lost for T4 & T5 cvs should be reduced to reflect their new, limited capabilities. I would suggest a little less than DDs are currently worth.

3. Since smoke provides full immunity vs carriers at T4 and T5 now, the amount of smoke consumables and their duration should be reduced to reflect their improved benefits.

4. The XP and Silver reward for CVs at T4 & T5 need to be improved by a large margin.

 

Furthermore i would suggest to WG to implement some sort of minigame, similar sized to the minimap, like pong for example, that players can play while waiting for their squads to complete a cycle of auto-attack and rearm.

 

I'm still somewhat baffled since this modification to the game mechanics pretty much turned the seal clubbing upside down. Instead of cvs clubbing new players, even a potato can now chase a CV and clubber it to death. Most of the auto-attacks are very easy to dodge, in some cases it is actually more difficult to intentionally catch a torpedo compared to dodging. Chasing a CV is almost impossible to mess up now. If there are islands and smoke involved the CV doesn't even have the option to counter that. Without those, even if the pursuer drives in a straight line and the cv focuses all attacks on it, chances are, it will not be enough to dissuade an attacker before the cv gets sunk. CVs at T4 & T5 are the new seals. Not because they are incompetent, but because they are designed that way.

 

Edit: I forgot to mention, that it is still possible to have games with massive damage at T4 & T5. The huge difference is, they are less fun for the CV and they require a congregation of exceptional cretins on the enemy team. Instead of reducing the skill gap on CVs, this just increases the requirements to have afk-players and potatoes on the enemy team. While it was to some degree already that way before, now it is mandatory and the cv player that can farm more afks/bots will have the better match. Sadly, the distribution of afk players and potatoes is 100% RNG. So now an average CV player can beat a unicum easily, just based on the rng cretin-distribution.

[walter3kurtz]

I cannot begin to understand why tweaking low tier AA isn't a better solution than what WG is doing now. If the strafing by seal clubbers is the real problem. Femennenly is correct in suggesting to remove fighters also.

[Capra76]

That's a terrible idea. It teaches bad habits and gives newer players the wrong idea of what their primary duties are as a carrier player.

 

Well, okay, but the way I see it the problem with CV seal-clubbing isn't that the new players can't execute a manual drop on a BB, the problem is that they lose all their planes to strafing in the first 5 minutes.

[dasCKD]

 

Well, okay, but the way I see it the problem with CV seal-clubbing isn't that the new players can't execute a manual drop on a BB, the problem is that they lose all their planes to strafing in the first 5 minutes.

 

I think that if that is the primary concern, strafing should have its effectiveness nerfed at the lower tiers and WG should institute a 1 carrier per team rule across the entire game.

[Spellfire40]

I cannot begin to understand why tweaking low tier AA isn't a better solution than what WG is doing now. If the strafing by seal clubbers is the real problem. Femennenly is correct in suggesting to remove fighters also.

Because T4 CV have near no reserves thats why 2 strafes leaves them helpless. Of course Buffing low tir AA is an option....if you in turn give low tir CVs unlimited planes. The limiting factor would be the posible number of atacks in a game instead of losing all planes.

[El2aZeR]

Well, okay, but the way I see it the problem with CV seal-clubbing isn't that the new players can't execute a manual drop on a BB, the problem is that they lose all their planes to strafing in the first 5 minutes.

 

Which is what removing fighters will fix?

Removing strafe alone will simply give USN loadouts the advantage (and make AS Bogue the single most *insert lots of bad words here* CV loadout in the game if it isn't already).

Giving them fighters only is not only horribly bland, but *everything dasCKD says*. Do you want more worthless AS CVs in the game? Because this is how you're gonna get more worthless AS CVs.

[Xevious_Red]

Out of interest has anyone tried the new "fighters leaving combat via alt attack" mechanic? I tried but couldnt get it to work.

 

Tried with the bogue (may not have it due to no alt attacks), and with the taiho but each time the fighters stayed in combat. Didnt matter if they had ammo or not

[Zouron]

I tried that a few times it is interesting mechanic really, it mixes things up a bit. It very much favour US CV as oppose to IJN CV, because of the large fighter squadrons, since they can immediately turn around and engage/strafe back with devastating effect.

[Xevious_Red]

Maybe Im doing something wrong. Hold ALT and then click to where I want them to leave to? Tried with both left or right click and nothing. Was using the new alternative controls