Which cruiser line for me?

[SaxonHoliday]

So, I'm at a point where I need to decide which cruiser line to go down. I'm pretty well-stuffed with DDs and BBs and already have further goals in mind. However, with CAs, I can't quite decide where to go. Note, I do not intend to stop at middle tiers, I fully plan to grind the lines to the end and play at T10.

 

First off, Zao is already out. I adore IJN DDs, but can't get into their cruisers - a handful of matches in Takao showed me that much. So we're left with the other four: Germans, Russians, Americans and Brits. I'm up to T4 on the Japanese and Americans, T5 for the Germans, and T6 for the Russians and Brits (got them from the Christmas Convoys).

 

As to my own considerations so far: I have the Belfast and enjoy it a lot, but the prospect of not having HE feels weird to me, so I've held off on grinding the RN. I greatly enjoy shredding plane squadrons (few things feel better than seeing those tracer rounds going everywhere), which would point to the Des Moines, but the lack of CVs at high tiers makes me wonder if specialising so much is worth it, though its nearly 12RPM rate of fire is hilarious nevertheless. Next in line would be the Hindenburg, whom I could spec into AA and still tear faces. But its terrible HE performance worries me, and the need to give up the brilliant German hydro for Defensive Fire just makes me feel like I'm wasting something. Lastly, there's the Moskva. While I might enjoy its nature as a firestarter, the fact that it seems like, essentially, a T10 Scharnhorst (battleship smaller than a battleship with guns bigger than a cruiser) taken to the extreme turns me off from it, because I'm not sure I need another battleship - plus, I've heard that its AA suite is inadequate.

 

So, that's pretty much it. Any advice on what line to go down? Thanks in advance!

 

P.S.: To anyone checking my stats - please ignore those 140+ games in the Prinz Eugen. I was a new player at the time of the ARP event, but I REALLY wanted Takao, so I took... drastic (and largely unsuccessful) measures.

[lycea]

Des moines has the best AP 

Zao has the best HE

Hindenburg is jack of all trades 

Moskva has the armor 

Minotaur has the dpm 

 

Choose! 

 

[Azalgor]

Go for brits, they have smoke, says all. Having radar to it with good rate of fire and them special AP shelss makes them pain in the but.

[Azalgor]

Des moines has the best AP 

Zao has the best HE

Hindenburg is jack of all trades 

Moskva has the armor 

Minotaur has the dpm 

 

Choose! 

 

 

DM has best AP? Since when did Hindenburg lost its crown?

[VC381]

My experience with Fiji is that I get more damage than Belfast, so don't be put off by the ammo, the DPM is very solid.

I think German HE was changed at T8+ so it is now acceptable. It's still the worst, but the idea that it's outright terrible is either outdated or an exaggeration. It feels viable on the Prinz Eugen so I don't see why not on Hindenburg with way more volume of fire. I can't actually give advice on the rest because I only play the PE, but I find it to be a balanced and strong ship.

Going past your AA desires (which as you point out may go unsatisfied often), do you want to be aggressive or long ranged? US cruisers for example are an acquired taste, I'm a huge fan of them but I've learned from the backlash they get on these forums not to let my opinions rose-tint my advice. If you're happy working extra hard with your situational awareness, WASD-hax, on-the-spot decision making and having to take big risks to get results, only then should you commit to that line. RN are similarly risky but with different tools to deal with it.

Soviet are by far the safest but probably also the blandest.

[Admiral_H_Nelson]

 

As to my own considerations so far: I have the Belfast and enjoy it a lot, but the prospect of not having HE feels weird to me, so I've held off on grinding the RN.

 

My experience with Fiji is that I get more damage than Belfast, so don't be put off by the ammo, the DPM is very solid.

 

I think German HE was changed at T8+ so it is now acceptable. It's still the worst, but the idea that it's outright terrible is either outdated or an exaggeration. It feels viable on the Prinz Eugen so I don't see why not on Hindenburg with way more volume of fire. I can't actually give advice on the rest because I only play the PE, but I find it to be a balanced and strong ship.

 

 

 

I am only interfering in this debate on one small point.

 

Not having HE in a cruiser feels weird to me as well, along with my loathing of practically everything British in this game (such as the commander voices and the a**hole of the port of London),

BUT....

 

VC381 (with whom I have no personal connection whatsoever) gives extremely good advice on the forum, so when he says  "...don't be put off by the ammo, the DPM is very solid." it is something to think very seriously about.

So please give RN cruisers a chance and the weirdness may wear off. People who can make them work get great results in them AND FIND THEM FUN!

[ShinGetsu]

I have the Hindenburgh, I stopped the IJN line at Myoko (I may go further on that line tho), I'm playing Donskoi to get Moskva atm, and I stopped the British three at Neptune, since both Neptune and Minotaur doesn't seems that fun.

 

- For the KM tree, I found Hipper rather enjoyable. Hindenburgh is a solid all-rounder, but I'm not playing it much. I kinda lost interest in it at the moment, as it's a little too much a jack of all trade for me. But I still like it, and I probably will play it more if WG finally decide to change a bit the meta in high-tier.

It have very strong AP damage wise, you punish quite heavily broadside BBs, and the HE aren't as weak as it seems. They are good enough to get some fires on BB, and they still do reasonable damage. 

Also, at close range, any cruisers opening his broadside is killed within the next two salvoes. AP aren't forgiving any mistakes there. It also have 16 torps but the torps tubes are very, very fragiles and the torps themselves aren't that brutal compared to IJN or Soviet torpedoes.

(Guess I'll play it today, for a change :p)

 

- For the RN, I stopped at Neptune because I did not find its gameplay fun at all. Fiji and Edinburgh were very good cruisers, but both Neptune and Minotaur have very static gameplay. Basically either you smoke and spam, or you hide waiting for your next smoke. If you are spotted without cover, you are dead. Simple as that. (Not even mentioning the huge focus you get the second you are spotted. The counter jump to 5 in no time, and everything hurts you)

Edinburgh was actually funnier because it has some armor and you can at least fight other cruisers, you don't have to sits in smoke the whole game. And Fiji is OP, but really enjoyable.

 

- Soviet are actually my favourite line at the moment. They have horrible handling, but I love railguns. You have to play at range, and spam. I found Kirov absolutely hilarious to play, and Budyonny was a very solid tier 6. Shchors have Yamato-like handling, but it have very good firepower and is very fast. Chapayev is great thanks to the concealment and radar (though I freepexed it like a scrub, I want M.O.S.K.V.A.), and Donskoi that I'm playing atm kinda reming me of Kirov, and I love that.

The whole gameplay is simple : stay far, spam, and try to either not get focused, or kite.

IFHE skill is a must have for the whole tree. 

Donskoi is really fun IMO, but as I said, you have to like using railguns at range, it's a sniper gameplay. AP are very strong too, that Izumo yesterday that offered his broadside to me at 16km received three time a 8k salvo, before i switched back to HE and started burning him down. :p

Radar is also very fun to use, though the short duration means you have to warn your team you're going to use it, so that you'll maximize its effects.

Moskva is the logical end of the line : you got railguns on a strong, solid and fast ship, but with paper side armor, very bad concealment and truck-like handling.

 

 

From what I know, you either have the choice between :

- All rounder for close and mid range : Germans

- HE-spammer for mid-range, and great torps + concealment : IJN

- Very static gameplay and AP spamming : high-tier RN

- Sniper, supporting role with railguns : VMF

- Strong HE, strong AP, very good handling, but no torpedoes, more for mid-range : USN.

[TheBigLanowski]

 

DM has best AP? Since when did Hindenburg lost its crown?

 

She lost it because of the poor penetration! DM can absolutely devastate stuff with AP even if slightly angled. Hindenburg needs perfect broadside on targets to get AP reliable to work. So the high alpha gets lost to the poor penetration... But hey HE HB works great because of the amount of shells you can get out, sad but true... I miss penetration on the German cruisers so bad! Hipper is one of the worst Ships in the game imho.

[El2aZeR]

If you enjoy Belfast I don't see how you will not enjoy RN CLs. Apparently the low tier ones are quite bad (I skipped straight to Leander thanks to the Xmas Convoy missions so I have no experience), but Leander on T6 is very solid and Fiji has been a blast so far. Just remember to spam the superstructure on BBs as if you would fire HE. Upper belt shots can be taken at closer ranges for massive damage returns.

[VC381]

 

 

I am only interfering in this debate on one small point.

 

Not having HE in a cruiser feels weird to me as well, along with my loathing of practically everything British in this game (such as the commander voices and the a**hole of the port of London),

BUT....

 

VC381 (with whom I have no personal connection whatsoever) gives extremely good advice on the forum, so when he says  "...don't be put off by the ammo, the DPM is very solid." it is something to think very seriously about.

So please give RN cruisers a chance and the weirdness may wear off. People who can make them work get great results in them AND FIND THEM FUN!

 

Thank you, I am humbled that my various ramblings have gained some recognition.

 

I should qualify that getting good damage from the RN AP requires aggressive positioning and risk taking, as well as a slightly different approach to target selection. But is it fun? Oh very, very yes!

 

@OP aside from AA you haven't really told us what you're looking for in terms of playstyle, that might help narrow it down.

[SaxonHoliday]

@OP aside from AA you haven't really told us what you're looking for in terms of playstyle, that might help narrow it down.

 

Well, the thing is that I can't really say because I'm not sure myself. As I pretty much never play cruisers (excepting Belfast), it's hard to say which line I'll like. I do very much enjoy the sight of torpedoes hitting, of citadel ribbons appearing, close range brawls with torpedo beats and rapid-fire guns pounding, and the smell of a nice BBQ, if that helps.

[ShinGetsu]

 

I do very much enjoy the sight of torpedoes hitting, of citadel ribbons appearing, close range brawls with torpedo beats and rapid-fire guns pounding, and the smell of a nice BBQ, if that helps.

 ...

Torpedoes hitting ==> IJN, RN or KM (Russians have great torpedoes, but the range... you have to be at point blank, on ship supposed to snipe)

Citadel ribbons ==> mostly Soviets or KM

Close-range brawls ==> Germans mostly, though it depends on the ship there.

Rapid-fire guns ==> Soviets or RN. Though Hindenburgh does have a great rof. And of course, Des Moines too.

BBQ ==> All of them but RN, tho I'd tend to say mostly IJN (best BBQ-maker ingame) or Soviets.

 

All in all... this is too large of a criteria. xD

[VC381]

 

Well, the thing is that I can't really say because I'm not sure myself. As I pretty much never play cruisers (excepting Belfast), it's hard to say which line I'll like. I do very much enjoy the sight of torpedoes hitting, of citadel ribbons appearing, close range brawls with torpedo beats and rapid-fire guns pounding, and the smell of a nice BBQ, if that helps.

 

Hmm, the thing is cruisers are the hardest class to play, and the ones that suit that close-in playstyle are the most demanding among this already challenging bunch. I'm not trying to put you off, only prepare you. ShinGetsu provides a generally good summary but seems to be missing the point that you already said you don't want IJN cruisers (and he's failed to account for citadel ribbon farming in US cruisers, more on that below). The aggressive, "brawling" cruisers are RN and US in my opinion. One doesn't have BBQ and the other doesn't have torps, but they tick the boxes apart from that. Since you're a DD player and these are also the top two DD hunter lines, you can use your experience against your own main class as well.

 

If you like Belfast and have worked out the RN smoke thing, the rest of the line should not disappoint even without HE. You already have Leander, take her out, play her like you do Belfast, and see how it goes, nothing really changes in the line's playstyle after that. Although even if you don't like Leander I would advise gritting your teeth and getting a Fiji, that thing is a monster. If that doesn't do it for you then you can leave the line saying you truly tried it.

 

US is more tricky because Cleveland is strong and fun in its own right but doesn't really teach you how the rest of the line is meant to work and Pensacola can be a bit of a "purgatory" ship. It's made of glass and you lose the RoF but gain lol-pen 8" freedom AP (it has some unique bounce mechanics, not as silly as the RN but basically it penetrates at steeper angles than other cruiser shells). Citadel ribbons? Yup, 3 or 4 per salvo on cruisers that though they were safe by being "angled", BB-level damage without the RNG (may cause enemy cruisers to report you for hacking). And it turns on a dime so forget torpedo-beat, the name of the game here is shell-beat! From there on up you slowly get your RoF back, peaking at the ridiculous DPM of Des Moines that you're already aware of, and pick up even better AP shells at T9.

 

I know you said you played Prinz Eugen a lot when you were a noob but have you gone back to it recently? That's basically your taster of the German line, nothing T8+ will surprise you if you're familiar with PE so basically use that to decide if you want to try for Hindenburg or not.

[ShinGetsu]

I still think the KM cruisers are the most adapted to brawling gameplay tho. Strong AP at low range, overall good armor with a quite well protected citadel, and good torps with correct forward angles. 

 

And I disagree that the RN line doesn't really change. You could play Fiji and Edinburgh without sitting in your smoke all time. Neptune and Minotaur are far too fragile for that. Your only option is to sit in smoke whenever possible, and it's a very, very static gameplay. Honestly I loved Fiji and Edinburgh because I could do some agressive move sometimes, and their gameplay was closer to Kutuzov than anything else. Neptune was a huge disappointment.

It may be because I didn't have good results with Neptune too, but Neptune/Mino gameplay is vastly different to what I did with very good results on Leander/Fiji/Edin.

 

Btw I played Hindenburgh again today as I said above. Here's the result :p

 

 

I took this screenshot for a reason : 8 AP on Atago : 5 citadel hits, 32k damage. That was my very first salvo this game. The DM got killed in quite the same circumstances; he waited for me, broadside, at a corner. I went angled, citadelled him for 18k damage, and destroyed his engine in the process : he couldn't accelerate and turn fast enough, the next salvo killed him with another 2 citadels.

This ship is very strong in FFA in facts. Because more than anything else, it's a ship that punishes very heavily the errors from your enemies. If they don't do something wrong, you're stuck to either ambushing or long range HE spamming. But when you find a broadside, when you can get your 16 torps on someone, when you hydro a DD inside its smoke... the damages are devastating.

 

 

EDIT : I don't talk much about USN cruisers because I never played them. I do know DM in good hands is very strong though. Nobody wants to see a DM appearing at 10km in their broadside. Nor do they want to get spammed behind an island with HE doing 4k damage every 6 seconds.

And yes, they are indeed good brawler, but the lack of torpedoes is still a huge let down in this case. 

[SaxonHoliday]

Well, it looks like the decision basically comes down to Hindenburg vs Des Moines, with Minotaur eating popcorn in the corner.

 

Thanks to everyone for your (sometimes very extensive) advice. I'll sleep over it and then see which I'll go with, though at the moment I'm leaning slightly towards DM, probably because of all the knife fights I got into with my Fletcher today... that DPM is beautiful at close range.

[Killerbin34]

As someone whose played Minotaur and Des Moines. I'd say get the most fun out of laying aggressive Minoatuar. Despite its obvious risks a well placed forward Minotaur can work wonders for a team. Also the fact i 'got it' o well that in my irst game i broke the 200K Dmg barrier, my first ever btw has likely secured that ship's place in my heart. But Des Moines is also a solid more sedate support ship. I find you cant really push with her unless the enemy has something else to shoot at. I suppose it's radar stigma attracts alot more incoming than say a Hidenburg.

[VC381]

If I may offer another piece of advice, don't tunnel vision on the T10s for your line choice. Of course the ships are awesome but so are everyone else's and there's nothing really that makes the game better at top tier. I'm not saying don't aim for it, but enjoy the journey as well as the destination.

[ShinGetsu]

I do agree with that. The reasons why I'm pushing the RU cruisers is because from tier 5 to 9 it had been a complete blast for me. On the contrary I stopped the IJN line because I kind of fear the Ibuki, and the KM line has the dreaded Yorck which is a very bad moment for most players... 

[RobS80]

Might I humbly suggest you hop onto the next test server and try each ship out. This is something I have done a few times to test if I actually like the tier 9 and 10s of a particular line. In less than 1 hour you can have one or more tier 10s and can try out in several battles. The games are nothing like on live server, but give you an opportunity to try a few things out and see how they go, even going into a co-op if needed to test pen at close range etc.

 

I will be doing it next time the test server is up for the German DD's, as I am on the tier 8 and hear the 9 and 10 are not so hot.

[Gojuadorai]

 

my ranking of  Ca lines via (Fun/Power):

 

1.) RN

2.) SN

3.) IJN (this is verry close to 2.) but T8 and T9 ruined it)

4.) KM

5.) probably fench?

6.) dunno maybe italians?

7.) USN

[SaxonHoliday]

After crunching some numbers (and a few biscuits), I'm down to Des Moines vs Hindenburg. Minotaur is probably not for me; the fragility of the RN CLs and their smoke-campy playstyle feels too destroyer-like for me (I already have plenty of destroyers, so why would I want another line?). Belfast is an exception due to her immense team utility being fun.

 

Anyway, the number-crunching:

• Survivability: Hindenburg has more HP, Des Moines has thicker armour around the citadel, Hindenburg's protection is more spread out + turtleback. How does this affect a) long-range sniping, b) close-range brawling scenarios? What shells can you bounce at what angle, what will penetrate you when for massive damage?
• Artillery: Des Moines has a higher RoF, Hindenburg has more shells per volley. Des Moines has better penetration (or so I've heard), Hindenburg has better shell speed to more comfortably hit at range. Additionally, at least from numbers, Hindenburg's dispersion seems wonkier. How big is the difference in penetration capability, and is it remedied by Hindenburg's more comfortable gunnery?
• Brawling: Des Moines has the anti-angling superheavy AP shells, Hindenburg has torpedoes. This is like comparing apples and oranges, so let's move on to...
• Maneouvrability: Des Moines is the clear winner here. Faster, tighter turning circle, quicker rudder shift. How does Hindenburg's handling feel? Can she torpedobeat reasonably well or is she going to eat fishes like a battleship?

 

Lastly, regarding DM. How much does the fun factor of being able to spew a full volley of 203mm shells every 5 seconds remedy any flaws she has?

[VC381]

Lastly, regarding DM. How much does the fun factor of being able to spew a full volley of 203mm shells every 5 seconds remedy any flaws she has?

 

Sorry I'm not able to provide a direct comparison with the Hindenburg (or really give detailed stat based answers to some of the questions above). But to answer this one:

 

Yesterday some division mates wanted to play T10 so I took out my DM. I flanked a Yamato while our Montana distracted him, and was getting 8k to 9k salvos at about 10km... every 5 seconds! Later the same game, we were winning so we decided to be silly and use the "shortcut" on Brothers. I came out a bit too early, blasted a Gearing in 3 salvos (14 seconds or so, bear in mind I run reload module and have Adrenaline Rush), then proceeded to farm 30k damage on a Kurfurst, with front turrets only, all in the time it took him to fire the two salvos that finished me from half HP. I went down but managed 125k damage overall and that GK got so scared he ran and left the exit open for our 2 T10 BBs to come out and win the game. And that was while playing the DM like an idiot and yolo-rushing T10 BBs (well OK I knew I had backup but you get the point).

[ShinGetsu]

Maneouvrability: Des Moines is the clear winner here. Faster, tighter turning circle, quicker rudder shift. How does Hindenburg's handling feel? Can she torpedobeat reasonably well or is she going to eat fishes like a battleship?

 

German hydro helps a lot. The handling isn't good, but clearly much more workable than the russian cruisers. And the ship being not very large helps for torpedobeats.

 

 

• Survivability: Hindenburg has more HP, Des Moines has thicker armour around the citadel, Hindenburg's protection is more spread out + turtleback. How does this affect a) long-range sniping, b) close-range brawling scenarios? What shells can you bounce at what angle, what will penetrate you when for massive damage?

 

Hindenburgh armor is more troll-armor than anything else, really. Against cruisers it really does the job against AP as long as you don't over-expose your broadside but against BBs it's much more random. Something you eat salvoes after salvoes without flinching, and sometimes you'll get a 25k damage salvo...

In short : don't count on it too much. It's still a cruiser.

Being one-shooted is rare tho. 

 

 

• Artillery: Des Moines has a higher RoF, Hindenburg has more shells per volley. Des Moines has better penetration (or so I've heard), Hindenburg has better shell speed to more comfortably hit at range. Additionally, at least from numbers, Hindenburg's dispersion seems wonkier. How big is the difference in penetration capability, and is it remedied by Hindenburg's more comfortable gunnery?

 I find Hinden artillery very correct. It's true that you lack penetration, but that doesn't keep you for massive salvoes on broadside BBs. Yet if they angle, your only option are the "average"-HEs.

Fire chance is good enough tho. Overall I find Hinden very comfortable.

 

 

 

[VC381]

 

German hydro helps a lot. The handling isn't good, but clearly much more workable than the russian cruisers. And the ship being not very large helps for torpedobeats.

 

 

 

Can you explain this one to me? I don't have the ships, but on paper Moskva has both a tighter turning circle and a better rudder shift than Hindenburg. The Shchors and Chapaev are super horribly bad for turning, but it seems to me the Donskoi and Moskva are competitive for their respective tiers in this sense (Donskoi is about as agile as a Baltimore on paper). Thing is, I haven't played these ships so I don't know how they actually "feel", but just going on the stats in wiki.

[Nechrom]

Too bad that you ruled out the IJN line.

I can see why the general IJN CA style might not be for everyone, but the Zao is such a fun ship.

 

It's so versatile but still very powerful at it's own special style. So in this case the moniker "jack of all trades, master of none" does not apply at all.

The Zao package includes:

• The best HE shells in the game.
• Great gun ballistics unlike the previous IJN cruisers.
• Very "trollish" armor layout with a turtleback that bounces shots you don't expect a CA to bounce.
• Great concealment only beaten by the Minotaur.
• Good gun range in combination with the above mentioned concealment gives 3km of stealth fire window with the right skills and upgrades.
• Great penetration on the AP shells unlike the previous IJN cruisers.
• Two broadsides of 10 super fast 8km range torpedoes with more or less the best damage in the game.
• Tied with the Moskva for fastest tier 10 cruiser @ 34.5 knots.

 

"Weaknesses":

• Almost no pure "utility" aspects, only Defensive AA. No radar, hydro, smoke etc.
• Worst AA among the tier 10 cruisers. That said it's not horrible, just bad relative to the others.
• Gun angles are not the best, but with 4 turrets with 3 guns each, you still have at least 6 guns available at any time, which is pretty decent.
• Worst RPM of the tier 10 cruisers. It's not a "spammer", but a nuker. You turn and fire, then you spend the reload time making sure you don't get killed before making the next volley. Could be seen as an advantage.

 

The main thing for me that makes the Zao so much fun is that you're never in a position where you can't do good damage. Due to the extremely powerful HE shells, the good range and the good ballistics you will do good damage to any target regardless of angling as long as you land the shots, which is pretty damn easy with such good ballistics. Combined with great concealment (9.7km with skill, upgrade and camo) you can just stop firing if you need to disengage and you'll just stealth up in most cases.

Then adding the bonuses of the ability to stealth fire, do devastating torpedo runs and having great AP on tap if you get the opportunity to blast a broadside cruiser or even a broadside BB.

 

I don't know how much you're willing to sacrifice for the tier 10 cruiser at the end. But I can tell you that the Zao is much better than the pretty bland tier 8 and 9 ships. It's what you would get if you asked someone who had played through all the IJN cruisers from tier 1 to 9 what they would fix when they made the last cruiser in the line. It keeps all the good things about the IJN cruisers (good concealment, great HE shells, great torpedoes etc) and fixes all the issues with them as well (long shell flight times, squishy citadel, bad AP penetration etc).