The Grozovoi saga (nerf, actual status, news...)

[Murro_the_One]

I changed the topic name to more general one as i tried to put also some news and possible buffs...

feel free to discuss/contribute

 

Original:

Grozovoi: AA damage of guns [130mm SM-2-1] reduced from 84 to 51

https://thearmoredpatrol.com/2017/03/01/wows-various-changes-in-wows-0-6-2-pt/

since its only caliber affected by manual AA its pretty serious blow so overall the AA will not be so great. maybe as good as its on "famous" german Z

 

and since Khaba got buff to the HE damage there is now not a single reason to get Grozovoi instead of Khabarovsk....

sad!

 

[xXx_Blogis_xXx]

if they let me buy for free , lol

[Migulaitor]

Grozovoi: AA damage of guns [130mm SM-2-1] reduced from 84 to 51

 

Around a 40% nerf, considering it melted tier 10 planes without being spotted I dont see the problem, it was broken.

and since Khaba got buff to the HE damage there is now not a single reason to get Grozovoi instead of Khabarovsk....

 

Defensive AA and the guns are supossed to be a bit better, still I wouldnt use a slower Khaba

[ColonelPete]

It is not even released yet and people complain...

[Murro_the_One]

I just counted it

Z-52 has total AA DPS with all auras and all AA upgrades and skills  - 320

Groz before nerf had - 399 without def AA, 1200 with defAA

Groz after nerf it has  - 301 without def AA, 905 with DefAA

 

just for real use:

300AAdps =~ 13% chance to shoot down tier10 aircraft every second

320 =~ 14,5%

399 =~ 18%

905 =~ 41%

1200 =~ 54%

 

 

[Aotearas]

Hmm, how is that aircraft crit chance actually calculated? I actually have no idea how that goes, beyond the simple the more the better ...

[Murro_the_One]

Hmm, how is that aircraft crit chance actually calculated? I actually have no idea how that goes, beyond the simple the more the better ...

 

chance to shoot aircraft = AAdps / aicraftHP      per second

 

tier10(hakuryu) planes have baseHP of ~2100 + some bonuses, lets say 2200

 

nerfed grozovoi with all aa upgrades and defensiveAA will have chance to shoot tier10 planes with 900/2200=41% chance every second. before nerf it was 54%

[Migulaitor]

Hmm, how is that aircraft crit chance actually calculated? I actually have no idea how that goes, beyond the simple the more the better ...

 

Plane has 100 hp, you have 10 DPS, 10% chance of killing the plane every second he stay in your aura. But dont know how does it really works because sometimes you kill 2 planes in 1 second.

[Agantas]

Hmm, how is that aircraft crit chance actually calculated? I actually have no idea how that goes, beyond the simple the more the better ...

 

Each set of AA guns periodically gets a chance to shoot down one aircraft. Aircraft HP increases their chance to survive, while gun DPS increases the chance to shoot down a plane. Planes do not slowly lose their hp, but the AA gets more chances to shoot them down if they spend a long time in the AA aura.

[strangers123]

Its basically a 1 shot crit change deal, its binary. Either a plane is alive, or its dead.

 

The reason you sometimes see planes live for like 10 seconds and then suddenly 2 fall out of the sky is because of a system of increasing chance to kill the longer its in range and you havent done anything. The "Average DPS" deal is to give you a general indication of what you can overall expect out of your guns over large sample sizes.

 

Don't forget that AA guns have their attack intervals.

Autocannons shoot more than once a second, DP guns take a few seconds to reload and this is reflected in their attack intervals.

 

This is why Hakuryuu DP (250 DPS base) is much better than the Midway DP 200 DPS. When you start upgrading these, the attack alpha of the Haku's AA reaches the point where you start getting insane 1-shot crits, and failing to 1shot something might mean you down 2 on the next attack. Its for this reason, not considering defensive, its arguable that the Hakuryuu has the best AA of any ship in the game up front.

[ghostbuster_]

Grozovoi: AA damage of guns [130mm SM-2-1] reduced from 84 to 51

https://thearmoredpatrol.com/2017/03/01/wows-various-changes-in-wows-0-6-2-pt/

since its only caliber affected by manual AA its pretty serious blow so overall the AA will not be so great. maybe as good as its on "famous" german Z

 

and since Khaba got buff to the HE damage there is now not a single reason to get Grozovoi instead of Khabarovsk....

sad!

 

did you really expect them not to nerf it? its AA was as strong as des moines. 

[anonym_VGtT7ixQxHUH]

hahahaha and the Khabarovsk.. is getting a rep kit OMG sorry that is so **** 

 

[eliastion]

Even if they nerf it, it's still a great AA machine, and with defensive fire... As first presented it was ridiculously overpowered. It was virtually a mini-minotaur that had defensive fire AND was able to stay iundetected (without smoke) while shooting down planes! Add to that the speed and you get the ultimate AA ship...

How powerful it is now remains to be seen, but it seems like the thing is still going to be really powerful.

[Forke]

Don't forget that AA guns have their attack intervals.

Autocannons shoot more than once a second, DP guns take a few seconds to reload and this is reflected in their attack intervals.

 

 

I highly doubt that. I think they streamlined the rate of fire of AA guns with 0.5.3. If Sub Octavian is to be trusted, it should be 140ms across the board.

 

A simplified explanation of how AA works:

- All AA guns with the same range form an aura.

- An aura can engage one target at a time.

- All auras work on their own. They don't combine their dps.

- Now they determine a base tick number. This is based on the plane hp and the auras dps.

- A tick happens every 140ms.

- Each time a tick happens there is a chance to shoot down a plane.

- The chance is 1/(ticks left).

- After every tick the number is decreased by 1.

- If a plane gets shot down basetick/2 is added to the current ticknumber.

- Repeat till all planes are destroyed.

- Switching targets or deactivating AA completely resets the ticknumber.

 

There is a lot I don't know about AA yet and i eagerly await the next reddit Q&A

 

sources:

Complete explanation of AA

http://forum.worldofwarships.ru/index.php?/topic/16696-

 

wonky english translation

http://forum.worldofwarships.com/index.php?/topic/96327-dev-qa-about-the-game/page__pid__2368029#entry2368029

 

[Aotearas]

Thx everyone

 

[Murro_the_One]

did you really expect them not to nerf it? its AA was as strong as des moines. 

 

well, Grozovoi gets with all aa upgrades and skills ~300DPS, des moines gets ~840 (both without defAA active) while both have similar max reach but desmoines has big portion of dps available on outer rings

so no, not even close

[Quetak]

thanks for explanation how AA works. I was thinking that its based on pure dps calculation (200dps -> 2000dmg in 10s -> one plane with 2000hp down).

I wonder what all I still dont know about this game

[T0byJug]

Grozovoi: AA damage of guns [130mm SM-2-1] reduced from 84 to 51

https://thearmoredpatrol.com/2017/03/01/wows-various-changes-in-wows-0-6-2-pt/

since its only caliber affected by manual AA its pretty serious blow so overall the AA will not be so great. maybe as good as its on "famous" german Z

 

and since Khaba got buff to the HE damage there is now not a single reason to get Grozovoi instead of Khabarovsk....

sad!

 

 

Question how can she be nerfed if she has not been released?  Sorry but stupid title.

 

It should read.

What do you think of the Pre release changes to Grozovoi.

 

What do I think of the changes! Well since Every video Review I have watched from just about all the respected community contributes have stated her AA was WAY  OP its a good thing

 

and reasons to get the Grozovoi

 

Substantially more stealthy than the Khabarovsk with torpedoes that are 10 knots faster make her a much better torpedo boat.

Yes the AA is changed but it is still very good she should still be  a good AA boat. She just wont be able to wipe out silly numbers of enamy planes

Less Guns and with shorter range. But higher Muzzle velocity will make already accurate high teir Russian DD guns even better

 

So in a nut shell not quit as good gun boat but better torpedo boat with strong AA and lets not forget DEFENSIVE FIRE. Makes AA huge

[Murro_the_One]

 

Question how can she be nerfed if she has not been released?  Sorry but stupid title.

 

It should read.

What do you think of the Pre release changes to Grozovoi.

 

What do I think of the changes! Well since Every video Review I have watched from just about all the respected community contributes have stated her AA was WAY  OP its a good thing

 

and reasons to get the Grozovoi

 

Substantially more stealthy than the Khabarovsk with torpedoes that are 10 knots faster make her a much better torpedo boat.

Yes the AA is changed but it is still very good she should still be  a good AA boat. She just wont be able to wipe out silly numbers of enamy planes

Less Guns and with shorter range. But higher Muzzle velocity will make already accurate high teir Russian DD guns even better

 

So in a nut shell not quit as good gun boat but better torpedo boat with strong AA and lets not forget DEFENSIVE FIRE. Makes AA huge

*AA with full spec and defAA active(which multiplies the DPS by 3) is on the same level as Minotaur, which does not have defAA at all, so outside of def fire it is just average AA ship

*Substantialy more stealthy means just bit better than khaba but way worse than rest of other DD's

*torp wise it is the same, nothing special even compared to khaba which has solid torps

*muzzle velocity is ~5% better than khaba

 

so all in all, if you specced fully AA, you can have average AA ship which is question why would you do that (note that those insane AA tests were done for demonstation purpuses with full AA spec)

thats the moral of the story.

so if you dont spec for heavy AA, yo uare just average gunboat which is way worse than new khaba with its 8 guns and recently buffed HE dmg

[T0byJug]

*AA with full spec and defAA active(which multiplies the DPS by 3) is on the same level as Minotaur, which does not have defAA at all, so outside of def fire it is just average AA ship ...  Minotaur is a Crueser with 9.2km aircraft detection range, Grozovoi is a DD with 4.77.   Grozovoi even with out Advanced fire training can Stealth shoot down planes.  Minotaur can not. Comparing a DD to a AA crueser as an example to say she is not good is just stupid

*Substantialy more stealthy means just bit better than khaba but way worse than rest of other DD's again rubbish.. the extra stealth puts her approx 1.2 km batter than Khaba and 1.2km worse than Shima so smack in the middle so if she is only slightly better than Khaba she is only slitly worse than Shima

*torp wise it is the same, nothing special even compared to khaba which has solid torps Do you know what you are talking about the torps are 10 Knots faster thats a lot better than Khaba. and the fact she can get closer to launch those torps make it easer to predict the path and the faster make it a lot harder for the Enamy to avoide

*muzzle velocity is ~5% better than khaba still better

 

so all in all, if you specced fully AA, you can have average AA ship which is question why would you do that (note that those insane AA tests were done for demonstation purpuses with full AA spec) Do you have any idea what you are talking about. 

thats the moral of the story.

so if you dont spec for heavy AA, yo uare just average gunboat which is way worse than new khaba with its 8 guns and recently buffed HE dmg again rubbish she still has very good AA Just not way OP AA...

 

[Murro_the_One]

regarding AA, try to read some theorycraft in this very topic, you might educate yourself for future about how effective in reality the AA for some ships is

regarding rest, hard to discuss with people who "know" all about everything...

[T0byJug]

regarding AA, try to read some theorycraft in this very topic, you might educate yourself for future about how effective in reality the AA for some ships is

regarding rest, hard to discuss with people who "know" all about everything...

 

Pall I don't need to read how effective the AA is for some ships.. I have played every tech line to at least tier 7 and most to 8+

 

I don't claim to know every thing but with 2.7K games in DDs and having played 48 of the playable DDs in game i can claim a bit of knowledge of DD game play. I am disagreeing with you and giving reasons. You just think you opinion is correct and you are not prepared to here another opinion.

 

Simple fact is you cant expect a DD to have comparable AA to a same tier Cruiser. Spatially to an ship classed as an Air defence ship 

Footnote the Minotaur has the joint  highest(for all time) average Plane kills of ANY non CV ship in the game alongside the Flint so please don't try this BULL that the Minotaur is not a great anti air ship

and for the last 2 weeks the joint highest with the Des Moines. so when you take in to account the Minotaur cant have defensive fire consumable and the others can the only possible thing to say is Minotaur has a Bloody strong AA

 

The problem is you logic in you comments. 1.2km better stealth than Khaba is only slightly better but 1.3km worse than Shima is HUGE.

5% better muzzle Velocity in guns is tiny, but 19% faster torpedoes is no difference

 

 

 

You have not played CV so let me explain.. Higher tier CV you have to keep your Aircraft out of teh AA corona of ships where possible. You only want to be inside this corona during your attack run. This can be achievable though sometimes hard as you can spot any ship from the air before there AA is in range. But not with the Grozovoi there is a very good chance you will only know the ship is there when you start losing planes

[Murro_the_One]

So for all those who said im crybaby, here is some more details why nerfing the AA made the ship completely useless ( =not special even at one thing which other DDs cant do better)

[Exocet6951]

ugh, they had the chance to make a nice little multipurpose DD, and just made it bad instead.

 

 

[Tuccy]

Just a slight reminder: Talking about buffs or nerfs is completely pointless before a ship is released. That is one of the reasons we have tests, including a Live test - to help to balance ship properly for release. So no, no buffs or nerfs, just tuning. It seems the "Work in progress" messaging on previews will need to be bigger next time 

 

I know that drama is much sought after, but there is really not much to get worked up before the ship is out. As it says on the box, any and all ship values she has for the test may and in most cases will change so that she is properly balanced when she comes to game.