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mtm78

Medway in flames

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The Medway raid was indeed something incredible.

I remember I read about it after being spurred by a hint in Patrick O'Brian's books (which also said that, despite a less than impressive nicknames, Dutch sailors had a tough reputation, and the Battle of Camperdown was remembered as a fierce struggle).

I was impressed by the calculated risk that was taken, but also by the sloppy way the British let themselves being caught with their pants down. I guess that, with divided and uncertain leadership, even the best military organization can suffer humiliating defeats.

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Alpha Tester
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The Medway raid was indeed something incredible.

I remember I read about it after being spurred by a hint in Patrick O'Brian's books (which also said that, despite a less than impressive nicknames, Dutch sailors had a tough reputation, and the Battle of Camperdown was remembered as a fierce struggle).

I was impressed by the calculated risk that was taken, but also by the sloppy way the British let themselves being caught with their pants down. I guess that, with divided and uncertain leadership, even the best military organization can suffer humiliating defeats.

 

The plan was daring and good ( even though there were missed chances, it could have been even more devastating ) but without incompetence or better said complacency on the British side it would have not been possible. It was a good example of what can happen if you think off yourself as so superior / safe that putting safeguards into place is not needed. 

 

moved to Age of Sail Warships

 

Thanks. 

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Cut the attitude, since you seem to have missed the point of the thread. The Dutch don't have enough for a tech tree, but they can have more than enough premiums, or those potentially unlock-able by free XP. 

 

Either way, since Medway (Chavham etc.) happens to be 20-30 mins down the road from me, please stop sending your ships here, it worries me. :hiding:

 

Sorry to derail the thread, but you appear to have made a grave misjudgement, Trainspite.

 

More chavs in Gravesend. Trust me. :trollface:

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The plan was daring and good ( even though there were missed chances, it could have been even more devastating ) but without incompetence or better said complacency on the British side it would have not been possible. It was a good example of what can happen if you think off yourself as so superior / safe that putting safeguards into place is not needed. 

 

I agree.

In fact, we might discuss so many actions or battles that wouldn't have been possible without the winner exploiting some critical weakness on the enemy's side that could have been prevented with relative ease, but that wasn't.

It ends up confirming the rule that in war, wins he who errs the least.

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For those that find themselves in Medway you should check out Upnor Castle, not only does it show how they lived there, it also shows a play-by-play of the raid (Just small miniature ships, but the lights makes for some decent effects) with a narrator telling what happened.

 

I can try to locate some pictures from Upnor Castle (I went there last fall), if anyone is interested.

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It ends up confirming the rule that in war, wins he who errs the least.

 

That sounds very Sun Tsu..

 

For those that find themselves in Medway you should check out Upnor Castle, not only does it show how they lived there, it also shows a play-by-play of the raid (Just small miniature ships, but the lights makes for some decent effects) with a narrator telling what happened.

 

I can try to locate some pictures from Upnor Castle (I went there last fall), if anyone is interested.

 

That would add to the thread for sure, I will add them to the OP if you find them :)

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Not making any promises :trollface:

 

 

I've seen those Dutch registered sailing boat fleets making their way down the estuary before... :look:

 

 

Sorry to derail the thread, but you appear to have made a grave misjudgement, Trainspite.

 

More chavs in Gravesend. Trust me. :trollface:

 

To be honest, I can believe that. A lot of North Kent like Kent's Australia Sheppey, Medway, Dartford and Gravesend seems to have those I that I glare at from across the street. 

 

And to make a relevant addition, the Guildhall museum in Rochester is worth a visit for some stuff on the Medway Raid. At least according to my memory.

 

 

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One things, though, I have to say.

When I start reading up this bit of naval history, I was struck by the complexity of the structure of the Dutch Navy. I get that it was a given, because of the very nature of the Dutch Republic, but I can't help but wonder if such a massive structure (with five separate Admiralties) ended up (although later than the Medway success) being a burden rather than an advantage.

I was also struck by how much partisanship and political rivalry trickled down into the senior ranks, and how much personal rivalry could mean, as well. I found a miniseries (made in the Netherlands) focusing on Admiral De Ruyter, and a big part of it is about political scheming from rival parties, and admirals (mainly Cornelis Tromp) trying to blow their own horns and get De Ruyter's job.

It makes me wonder if Dutch success in these conflicts was more about British ineptness and poor field and political leadership, rather than a united and solid Dutch one.

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There was a lot of infighting but I think the Dutch just have more records of the behavior and that is was quite evenly spread around in regards to rivaling countries. And being a republic with lots of 'competing' provinces might have been detrimental, there was without a doubt a huge feeling of unity ( or need for unity to defeat the enemies ). 

 

 

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There was a lot of infighting but I think the Dutch just have more records of the behavior and that is was quite evenly spread around in regards to rivaling countries. And being a republic with lots of 'competing' provinces might have been detrimental, there was without a doubt a huge feeling of unity ( or need for unity to defeat the enemies ). 

 

It seems to me (but it's only human) that when vital interests were endangered, the sense of unity was strongest, but when the situation improved, the squabbling resumed undaunted.

Although, to be completely fair, I have to admit that it seems that no particularly dangerous, short-sighted or purely idiotic policy or decision was taken because of that, which was the case for other countries in similar situations, throughout history.

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I might be a Brit and a bit of an RN fanboy, but we really have to have some Dutch Ships in game. Such a great naval tradition is being ignored

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On 25/06/2017 at 8:27 PM, Fat_Maniac said:

I might be a Brit and a bit of an RN fanboy, but we really have to have some Dutch Ships in game. Such a great naval tradition is being ignored

 

Agreed. The Dutch (and their ancestors) really were a pain in the backside for us British throughout history. Such a nation deserves a place on the WG pedestal...even if just in the form of some Destroyers and paper Battleships to begin with. De Ruyter at the very least deserves to be in here...that'd go well with the fact we have a lot of Japanese ships in-game and also could coincide well with the British fleet arriving; Imo anyway.

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One of the problems for the tech tree is the Dutch build ships that where purpose build for the protection of the east indies.

coastal defence cruisers leaning to battleship heavy armour and guns.

Gunboots or sloops.

Large nrs of longrange submarines. (this was one of the plans of the 30s to have large nr of submarines suported by destroyers aircraft and cruisers )

Flotila leaders called cruisers. but where infact large heavy gunned destroyers.

if you count the K, G and Z class torpedo boats . wolf ,admiralen , callenburg, n-class (british designed but used by dutch australian and polish navys) ,tromp and heemskerk class flotila leaders. campbel town , holland and friesland class destroyers you do have  enough for one destroyer tech tree.

 Something to read on the fleet plans for the far east.

you might find some things suprising

http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a590403.pdf

 

 

 

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9 hours ago, HNMLS_Bloyesvantreslong said:

One of the problems for the tech tree is the Dutch build ships that where purpose build for the protection of the east indies.

coastal defence cruisers leaning to battleship heavy armour and guns.

Gunboots or sloops.

Large nrs of longrange submarines. (this was one of the plans of the 30s to have large nr of submarines suported by destroyers aircraft and cruisers )

Flotila leaders called cruisers. but where infact large heavy gunned destroyers.

if you count the K, G and Z class torpedo boats . wolf ,admiralen , callenburg, n-class (british designed but used by dutch australian and polish navys) ,tromp and heemskerk class flotila leaders. campbel town , holland and friesland class destroyers you do have  enough for one destroyer tech tree.

 Something to read on the fleet plans for the far east.

you might find some things suprising

http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a590403.pdf

 

 

 

Nice post. I,ev been thinking it wouldn't be hard for WG to give us some Dutch DD's especially if they are working on RN ones. Maybe next year they might bring us a Dutch premium. We can hope!

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Or even this beautiful specimen HNMLS De Ruyter. She could be a nice premium light cruiser

Speed: 32 kn (59 km/h; 37 mph)
   
Armament:
Armor:
Aircraft carried: 2 × Fokker C-11W floatplanes

HNLMS_De_Ruyter.jpg

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There is something interesting about the 1047 discusions about the armour .

A lot of people think that the 28000 ton design is a down graded version of the sharnhorst but in fact that was the official weight for the sharnhorst .

They falsified the records to comply to the treaty but infact it was 8000 tons heavier. in the same way they falsified Bismarcks weight .

The project 1047 would have been an upgraded version with newer guns improved torpedo protection and deck armour increased aa and elevation.

better logistics due to 120 mm dual purpose guns . and an exelent firecontrol system and radar..

The Sharnhorst class ships where ment to fight heavy  cruisers in the same way as the Dunquerke . this was perfect for dutch needs in the far east.as they would be used as cruiser killers.

making them verry interesting . as the dutch never signed the cruiser treaty they would have been considerd unrestricted cruisers.

 

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