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So I bought a Belfast for ranked.....

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is this thread still going on?

everyone knows that belfast is op af, even the ones who claim otherwise; but they stick to ranked like flies to crap, so randoms are belfast free :)

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I don't know you nor do I care what you contributed in this thread. It seems however that I mad a big impression on you in the handful of replies I made. Sorry bro.

 

You dont care what the other discussants in this thread contributed, thats the spirit a forum needs. And a whole new level of off-topic as well, congratz.

 

Maybe care to elaborate your thoughts on this?:

 

View Postallufewig said:

 

Estimating the percentage of skilled players in a premiumships total population is pure guesswork. Seing that the Belfast even outperforms the Flint, which in comparison is a skilled-player-only ship without doubt, the Belfast is not in a comfortable position regarding this argument anyway.

 

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You contradict yourself very hard here.

 

Worded badly, I meant that it\s not just the ship winning because it's Belfast, but the overall difference can have other reasons (skill being just one).

 

 But many experienced players can just take a look at belfasts attributes and expect it to outperform other tier 7 cruisers. Statistics and experiences from ranked seem to support that assumption.

 

While it's nice to discuss subtleties of balance, people are foaming at the mouth and it's not very useful anymore. It's a bit like the RPF fiasco, that was hilariously enough not a fiasco after all. Aerroon said it but was ignored. Now I don't imply that the Belfast discussion is of the same nature, but the mentality of forum ragers is just to rage hard and ignore other voices that don't echo their belief. 

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Another key factor that helps the Belfast and all CCs in ranked is that there are less players total, all much more focused usually on one point. It makes positioning and tracking where your threats are much easier in the heat of battle. It's much easier to dodge incoming from one direction instead of 3 like a usual random match. This is why players like to hug map edges and avoid points in random battles, easier to manage.

 

A well played Belfast can only really be caught out when an escape route out of smoke is cut off, this is much harder to do with less ships, all clustered much closer together than usual ranked play.

 

As for the other side of the coin, BBs have a less target rich environment and being slower makes them more vulnerable to position based attacks and less effective at flanking themselves. Flamu points this out in his Belfast vid a little, mentioning that BB players tend not to hold position, feeling that if they aren't hammering shells into something they aren't doing their job. Thus throwing away winning positions.

Edited by Thracen

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Another key factor that helps the Belfast and all CCs in ranked is that there are less players total, all much more focused usually on one point. It makes positioning and tracking where your threats are much easier in the heat of battle. It's much easier to dodge incoming from one direction instead of 3 like a usual random match. This is why players like to hug map edges and avoid points in random battles, easier to manage.

 

A well played Belfast can only really be caught out when an escape route out of smoke is cut off, this is much harder to do with less ships, all clustered much closer together than usual ranked play.

 

As for the other side of the coin, BBs have a less target rich environment and being slower makes them more vulnerable to position based attacks and less effective at flanking themselves. Flamu points this out in his Belfast vid a little, mentioning that BB players tend not to hold position, feeling that if they aren't hammering shells into something they aren't doing their job. Thus throwing away winning positions.

 

Good analysis. Ranked also amplifies the effectiveness of radar, because less players that are also closer together. It was a point I tried to make - radar is an issue for ranked meta.

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People investing real money and time into the game are generally better than your regular tier 7 pleb sailing a normal cruiser.

 

Just wanted to note that this argument stands on an incredibly thin sheet of ice.

 

Derpitz is all I'm going to say.

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People investing real money and time into the game are generally better than your regular tier 7 pleb sailing a normal cruiser.

 

Just wanted to note that this argument stands on an incredibly thin sheet of ice.

 

Derpitz is all I'm going to say.

 

 

 

While it's nice to discuss subtleties of balance, people are foaming at the mouth and it's not very useful anymore. It's a bit like the RPF fiasco, that was hilariously enough not a fiasco after all. Aerroon said it but was ignored. Now I don't imply that the Belfast discussion is of the same nature, but the mentality of forum ragers is just to rage hard and ignore other voices that don't echo their belief. 

 

I can't talk about others, but the reason why I'm engaging in this discussion is not because I think the Belfast is blatantly OP, but because a handful of people seem to be tryharding in an attempt to whitewash that fact, pulling brain acrobatics and drawing circular conclusions trying to convince everyone (or maybe just themselves) that the Belfast isn't somehow overpowered compared to regular cruisers at tier VII (or any other tier really, since the Belfast is the only ship in the entire game to get access to smoke, hydro and radar at the same time).

 

It's quite possible that my insistent counterarguments to paint the picture of me being being obsessed with the Belfast OPness, but really I'm just flabbergasped at people who try to argue the ship is perfectly balanced.

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Fair points.

 

edit: Just to be clear, I never once said it was perfectly balanced. I think it's not as OP as some want you to believe though. Everything is relative and depends on actual circumstances.

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Have you looked at your own ranked stats then?

 

Yeah I looked at my stats. I'm in the top 10 in Europe in it. So pretty much an expert on and in Belfast :playing:

 

The thing is there is no statistical evidence of it over performing, quite the contrary. There are plenty of players doing horrendously in it. 

 

You can even look at the players who people on here worship like Flamu and see he has 60 sum percent in it and struggles.He stopped playing it because it's "boring" (yeah right) Yet his new gameplay is him sitting in someone else's smoke shelling  (more boring).

 

So I think that's why it's patently obvious to the experts (wargames) It's not op. And thankfully obvious to most in here it's not. There are just a few for whatever reason who want to hold on to the hope it is. Maybe to excuse their own performances which seems to be a unifying factor. But yet all those I have checked who are saying it's too easy to play are amongst the top player in the ship so pverperforming. And all those others who whine it's op underperform vs their other ships (the very definition of underpowered)

 

So yes pretty much every shred of evidence is against it except "waaaah  it has radar" " waaah  it kills my dd"

 

But as I stated before the most confusing thing is the fact so many don't perform as they do in other ships, and their terrible wholly confusing excuses...

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even though belfast has lower win rate from my games doesnt mean its not the strongest. 

Playing the lenningrad I have to play my very best, every mistake costs dearly.

Same with Nagato.

In Belfast I am much more relaxed.

Mostly, these are small samples, the low win rate on the Belfast could very much be because of low number of games played.

 

"Strongest" ship by definition gives advantage by itself over the enemy -> ergo, higher WR. Being "relaxed" is just irrational feeling, probably related to sitting in the smoke (it is also why this feeling can be false ;) )

Hm. I can even maybe agree that playing Belfast is easier or less stressful than playing other ships. But this still doesn't make her results sooo much better than in other ships. Belfast is not OP in the same way as Grem or Nikolai are. 

 

Ranked is good way to get rid of MM bias, and also (more importantly) gets rid of division bias. So we have the same player fighting against ships of the same tier without divisioning - and he is facing opponents at similar skill (at some rank bracket, at lower ranks it is still a mix...). According to all "OP!" shouters this would mean that Belfast WR should skyrocket compared to all other ships. Is it really happening?

 

 

Belfast is a tier 8, given a refit that puts her at tier 7, (torpedoes, AA, secondaries, soft stats) and then given consumables that make her competitive compared to most tier 8s. She is OP, and you can't really get around that. She is situational to a certain degree, but just because she doesn't work as well in some situations does not mean the ship is not grossly overpowered. She is not the only cruiser I consider OP at the tier, I consider Myoko to be as well. And I mostly play cruisers all around. Belfast vastly overperforms because she is quite flexible, and IFHE has just made it even more obvious. (Even if I have yet to get said skill).

 

Nonono. Even if Edinburgh looks just like war-time Belfast, doesn't mean it is the same ship. Edin murders Belfast in gunfight (only when accidentally Belf is exactly angled chances are more even). 

Stop repeating the OP meme, if you don't give any proof. If some ship is good for punishing some specific kind of players in specific ship, it is not enough. 

For example when German BB came out, I murdered Nassaus in my Bogatyr by dozens. They could do nothing to me. But still nobody screamed that "Bogatyr is OP!!!111". :P

 

 

 

What people like you dont really seem to grasp is that 2% to the next best ship is not the tiny amount it seems to be, given the fact that ranked mm comes closer to a mirror-mm both in playerskills as well as ship-distribution. Meaning Belfasts are often matched against other Belfasts of a similar skilllevel. A 2% leap over the next best ship means that everytime there is an uneven distribution, the team with more Belfasts is quite a bit more likely to win.

 

Between different kinds of Myoko you can have much more than 2% WR difference... Still they are identical ships.

 

 

Your mathematical argument is invalid. In a mirror matchup the ship would not have a higher winrate because for every Belfast winning there is one losing. In fact a higher winrate proves nothing, It seems to indicate that the team that has more Belfasts than the other team is winning more often, yes, but it can also simply be that Belfast is used by more capable players. Which seems likely. People investing real money and time into the game are generally better than your regular tier 7 pleb sailing a normal cruiser. And then there is the fact that you don't know at which part of the ranked leagues the discrepancy in winrate is created. Skilled Belfast encountering broadsiding Myoko's and BB to feast on in ranks 20 - 10, will result in an abnormal winrate. There are just too many factors to simply draw conclusions like you do. 

 

Is Belfast OP? Flamu said his biggest problem with the Belfast is that it can immediately counter-spot a DD that is spotting the Belfast, due to similar ranges in detection and radar. It's true and removes the ability to launch a good torpedo ambush. However I think the DD is bad if he gets killed at any range above 7 or 8km. The shells are pretty slow and a DD with some kind of brain is moving if there is a chance of Belfast radaring. From my DD games in ranked so far I have the least problems with Belfast. It's the DD's with better concealment that are the problem. Or spotter planes. Why? Because this usually leaves you vulnerable at much shorter distance.

 

Belfast is great for DD ambush, because you can catch them at shorter distance, other than that it's not such a big deal to DD as people want you to believe.

 

Of course there are multiple factors affecting WR, but having larger sample (or smaller, but with many factors excluded) one can get some conclusions.

An OP ship should have much higher winrate than any other ship. The difference should be significant, i.e. much larger than the influence of those "other factors" - for example it should be (much) larger than difference between different kinds of Myoko...

 

 

Is that so? Well, given the few indications we have, it would be even more foolish to come to the likewise simple, but even more unlikely conclusion that the ship is fine as it is.

 

Estimating the percentage of skilled players in a premiumships total population is pure guesswork. Seing that the Belfast even outperforms the Flint, which in comparison is a skilled-player-only ship without doubt, the Belfast is not in a comfortable position regarding this argument anyway.

 

I still think that mostly skilled players bought Belfast. Maybe the current "ranked hype" changed that, though. Still I don't agree that "Belfast outperforms Flynt". Difference is really small. 

BTW in higher ranked brackets you have mostly skilled players anyway.

 

A lot of opinions from good to excellent players to know if Belfast is OP we should test it hear the opinnion of with someone who bought it recently preferebly for ranked with a lets say 3 pt. capt. starter having not a lot of expierence with cruisers. Or the next best not experienced players. How will they perform? Can they get top of the list what are there experiences?

 

Or in other words: Can a noob buy a Belfast and be successfull in ranked?

 

I never grinded the Brits though I have a Leander from the mission with I think a 3 pt/ capt. On the other hand I played Myokos Atago and Russ cruisers so I know about dd play I would like to try out but adding yet another premium ship to my inventory I dont know not really cool....... 

 

Leander/Fiji are good testers. If you feel OK in those ships you will do fine in Belfast too. Main difference is that Belfast has no torpedo defense against someone charging into her smoke - but also doesn't care if the target is angled because of IFHE. Doesn't have heal, too - but has the radar.

 

And no - noob can't be successful in ranked ;)  Even in Belfast :trollface:

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Yeah I looked at my stats. I'm in the top 10 in Europe in it. So pretty much an expert on and in Belfast :playing:

 

Link plz.

 

Because the stats that I found show you just barely above server average.

 

And the rest of your cruiser stats are firmly hovering around or below server average. So excuse me if I don't exactly believe that you're an authority on how to play cruisers.

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Yeah I looked at my stats. I'm in the top 10 in Europe in it. So pretty much an expert on and in Belfast :playing:

 

The thing is there is no statistical evidence of it over performing, quite the contrary. There are plenty of players doing horrendously in it. 

 

You can even look at the players who people on here worship like Flamu and see he has 60 sum percent in it and struggles.He stopped playing it because it's "boring" (yeah right) Yet his new gameplay is him sitting in someone else's smoke shelling  (more boring).

 

So I think that's why it's patently obvious to the experts (wargames) It's not op. And thankfully obvious to most in here it's not. There are just a few for whatever reason who want to hold on to the hope it is. Maybe to excuse their own performances which seems to be a unifying factor. But yet all those I have checked who are saying it's too easy to play are amongst the top player in the ship so pverperforming. And all those others who whine it's op underperform vs their other ships (the very definition of underpowered)

 

So yes pretty much every shred of evidence is against it except "waaaah  it has radar" " waaah  it kills my dd"

 

But as I stated before the most confusing thing is the fact so many don't perform as they do in other ships, and their terrible wholly confusing excuses...

 

If belfast is not op, why u dont try to get rank1 in a myoko?

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If belfast is not op, why u dont try to get rank1 in a myoko?

 

Because I don't have other ships or commanders for other ships (my Myoko captain got promoted to Mogami ;) ) ?

Because I played Belfast a lot and know the ship?

Because I like to earn credits while playing ranked?

Because I am a shy guy and like to hide in the smoke?

Because on YT they said that the ship is OP? 

or hundred other reasons. 

 

You are telling us, that not playing a Myoko is going to prove something? :sleep_fish:

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Yeah I looked at my stats. I'm in the top 10 in Europe in it. So pretty much an expert on and in Belfast :playing:

 

 

So you are saying belfast is not OP because some players perform worse with it than some other ship, but you performing way better than your stats would otherwise suggest, is just you being "belfast expert"? It just fits your playstyle right?
Edited by ajappat

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So you are saying belfast is not OP because some players perform worse with it than some other ship, but you performing way better than you stats would otherwise suggest, is just you being "belfast expert"? It just fits your playstyle right?

Yes exactly. If you think the ship is op. It should be beating all your other ships. Which it doesn't for these people. Always the opposite. 

 

Well I'm usually 70 -80% Winrate in the ships II'm good at so I'm about dot on in Belfast. Add to that in ranked your 1/7th of the team so you should be having more of an impact. Also I've stated before on here my girlfriend plays wows. So Prolly 5%? 10% of games. I dunno. I dont keep count. But factor that in. (She doesn't play ranked so far, phew... those are all my good and bad plays)

 

Add to that my Belfast is my most trained expert captain. It's the ship I have the most experience in and it's the ship I can kill destroyers in. My myoko (southern dragon) is brand new and rarely used. But it does wreck other cruisers. But a skillless captain doesn't help in it. I have limited time to put into ranked so would be silly to play this ship really.

 

I actually prefer Nagato and do more overall in her. However I can't do much to destroyers in nagato and in my experience ranked is destroyer heavy. I also can't move around much. So nagato is limited in her impact (like all battleships) and I rely on my team to clear the destroyers which they often don't bother with. Im going to play some more in Nagato caus I believe it's the strongest ship stats wise. But unfortunately you are relying on your team to do their job. Atleast in Belfast I can do the hard job myself. If this was tier 6 I would be in my Leander.

 

My strongest ship is Prolly my c.v. by far. But I'm rubbish in cvs  and struggle to strafe  and auto drop super well. So I underperform in it since opposing cv  in ranked are often ninjas. 

 

 

Link plz.

 

Because the stats that I found show you just barely above server average.

 

And the rest of your cruiser stats are firmly hovering around or below server average. So excuse me if I don't exactly believe that you're an authority on how to play cruisers.

 

I'm good at most cruisers and great in RN cruisers. I teach a few friends how to play them. I don't purport to be the bèst. But I was happy to see my work in Belfast with alternate tactics and testing paid off. I actually made a post a while ago when i got it to try go get help on tactics but didnt get much constructive help. Everyone just said "sit in smoke and shoot at stuff, you are a crappy player if you dont do that!" which wasnt really helping me. But i learnt on my own pretty much, hence the dent in my win rate (and that my gf is not a great player bless her)

 

 

ohh ps heres your link

 

30sbnkp.jpg

 

i was 4th when i wrote the original, some other players have overtaken me! :ohmy:

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Dominico

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Are you serious Dominico? I mean really serious? Do you think youre some sort of an expert, because you got a lucky streak within that enormous sample size of 30 games? The rest of your stats dont even support that winrate in any way.  :facepalm:

 

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ohh ps heres your link

 

30sbnkp.jpg

 

i was 4th when i wrote the original, some other players have overtaken me! :ohmy:

 

Yeah ... about that.

 

That's not exactly a representative sample size, is it? 30 games out of a global 400.000+ games. Trying to draw conclusions that way will just have everyone with a basic understanding of statistics roll their eyes :rolleyes:

 

 

You are telling us, that not playing a Myoko is going to prove something? :sleep_fish:

 

The point he made was that if we'd consider that Belfast is neatly balanced, then naturally the Myoukou should do similarily well since neither of them have a distinct advantage over the other. That's what being balanced means after all.

 

The stats however don't indicate that. The Myoukou is not nearly performing as well as the Belfast. In fact the only ships that manage to match are the Flint (big surprise there) and the Fiji (and I have yet to see a person that doesn't think the Fiji is extremely strong for its tier).

P.S.: I'm talking global stats, not Ranked only.

 

Edited by Aotearas

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Everyone should he used to radar / hydro by now, you can play around it most of the time. All I know know is I have better W/R , dmg etc in my Fiji, ranked or random. Heal and torps seem better for me. 

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Belfast is OP, and lot of scrubs are buying it just for ranked, its just so sad.  Their everywhere!

 

And no Flint is not as good, worse guns, no radar, less health, less manoeverable (if the Belfast handles like Fiji), worse camo.  All it has better is torps which have awful angles, and AA yet their are no CV.  So yeah....sums up it.

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I bought the bel for my birthday last week, though haven't had much experience with it yet, been using my shiny horse for ranked (but still haven't reached rank 10), using my warspite capt but he's only got 7 points, so no concealment expert or IFHE on him yet.

 

I need to practice with it more.

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2rpyxci.jpg

 

 

Myoko is so op!!


Please fix it, belfast guns just mainly bounce off. Resulting in dead Belfast with superior team work. Also when he is in smoke he gets torped into smoke!!


Myoko is broken in ranked, please fix Myoko! Please ignore stats and see Myoko has plane which can see over mountains, resulting in spotted enemies without having to show yourself!!


"yeah but thats just one match. Now show me the 2 in a hundred matches where belfast wins with its OPness..."

 

 

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And Dominico continues cherrypicking his arguments whilst happily ignoring all the available, statistically significant data that doesn't paint the picture that he wants them to.

 

Willfull ignorance paired with gleeful arrogance (stating he's a "top 10 Belfast player" ... out of a sample size with a laughable 30 games played, yet continously ignoring how people point out that his global stats in the Belfast are just barely above server average) but hey, he's an expert, we should all listen to him no matter how circular and onesided his argumentation is.

 

All the other dozen'ish players with better stats, significantly more gameplay experience, etc. are clearly just delusional, lying and/or too stupid to see how wrong they must be.

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Belfast is OP, and lot of scrubs are buying it just for ranked, its just so sad.  Their everywhere!

 

And no Flint is not as good, worse guns, no radar, less health, less manoeverable (if the Belfast handles like Fiji), worse camo.  All it has better is torps which have awful angles, and AA yet their are no CV.  So yeah....sums up it.

 

Atlanta is actually very strong this season as there is so much willing smoke for you. Flint might be just as good. Plus the twins both have troll shell archs which can lob ships from rage inducing positions.
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Nonono. Even if Edinburgh looks just like war-time Belfast, doesn't mean it is the same ship. Edin murders Belfast in gunfight (only when accidentally Belf is exactly angled chances are more even). 

Stop repeating the OP meme, if you don't give any proof. If some ship is good for punishing some specific kind of players in specific ship, it is not enough. 

For example when German BB came out, I murdered Nassaus in my Bogatyr by dozens. They could do nothing to me. But still nobody screamed that "Bogatyr is OP!!!111". :P

 

 

 

They are the same ship, however WG has made so many differences it is disheartening. Taking a Stock Belfast & Edinburgh, with normal features (HE & AP) and maybe smoke+ Heal, you would place them at tier 8. Then take away the Heal, AA, Torpedoes etc. away from the Belfast, and you can work with that at tier 7, even if she still has the devastating 12x 6" broadside on a better hull than the more fragile Fiji. She already has a devastating broadside and a smoke screen, which is already a dangerous combination for tier 7. Then give the ability to see out of that smoke screen at will. And throw in hydro for good measure. And then get IFHE and basically get a higher constant damage from HE. Oh, and you also get that 5th upgrade slot for extra lols in concealment. I hope you see what I am getting at here. 

 

I guess one way of convincing you she is OP is by giving a Kutuzov radar to go with it's smoke screen, which would now have another charge on it. Then give increased mobility, less speed lost while turning and insane accleration a la RN CL. Or maybe do the same for a Shchors, since that also has 12x 6" firespitters at tier 7. 

 

I would take a Belfast over Edinburgh in a gunfight. Even though Edinburgh gets that large HP repair, the special AP is so ridiculously easy to counter and minimise damage from. You will murder someone if broadside, but if not, then good luck. The most recent example is my Yorck with about 5k HP turning stern on to an Edinburgh and running aground. I did significantly more damage to him with about 15k HP than he did to me. In the end he smoked up and naffed off because I had 2k HP and he was going to lose, given he now had around 6k HP from combined AP & HE fire from me.

 

She is OP simply put. There is no working around that. In the same way Konig Albert is OP. A ship below the tier it really should be it. Either that, or take away her consumables. She doesn't need them. The proof will be in the performance stats, and if they get too high, Belfast may well end up the way of Gremyaschy or Nikolai. But I would not challenge the stats, once beyond a certain point.

 

I would regard the Boggy B as just a tad OP as well. Though I never liked it much, and gave up on trying to make the 130s work. Going around clubbing newer players or low ranged BBs with a cruiser that is known to be excellent with AFT does make that ship just a bit OP. 

 

 

 

Myoko is so op!!

 

 

To be honest. She is.

Not by much, but she is too strong in my eyes. That 20% fire chance with 10 rifles at tier 7 is pretty devastating, and to think she retains some of the stats she had when she was a tier 8. Like having that RoF that is better than Mogami, Atago & Ibuki. 

 

Having that magnitude of firepower in combination with her HP and speed is not balanced out by her turning circle, or even the imminent BB salvo wiping you out. 

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