Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
You need to play a total of 50 battles to post in this section.
HMS_Antelope

Clans versus Clans?

34 comments in this topic

Recommended Posts

[RALLY]
Players
309 posts
8,110 battles

Dear WG/Fellow Captains

 

I wouldn't say I am a huge supporter of Clans/Divisions but recognize the importance to both WG and numerous WOW players.  But please in the nicest possible way can someone answer me these questions.

 

Why are clan members being allowed on opposing sides?

 

Why is the MM letting this happen? It seems a deliberate act of trying to ensure this happens.

 

Does anyone else think this is concerning?

 

Does WG have any plans to stop this from happening in the future?

 

I would say I am a concerned regular player and would welcome any comments regarding this.

 

Thanks

Edited by HMS_Antelope

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[SCRUB]
Players
7,298 posts
9,517 battles

Why would members of the same clan being on opposing sides be something to be concerned about? I hope this isn't going to be one of those recent tinfoil hat threads that's suggesting that clans would somehow rig matches ...

 

MM can only work with what it gets. If clanmates division up or press battle at the same time (deliberately or not), MM has to put them somewhere, that can also be the same game and sometimes even on the same side.

 

No.

 

No. WG has stated that clans being on opposing sides or even trying to get into the same game by coordinating press battle isn't a violation for as long as they don't help anyone on the enemy team (i.e.: sabotaging your own). IF you notice shady behaviour, send the replay to support with an explanation and they'll take a look to see if anything unfair was being conducted.

  • Cool 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[RALLY]
Players
309 posts
8,110 battles

I admire that you trust this but my understanding is that clans have team speak etc so it is not beyond the realm of this happening.  Why not just stop the practice altogether, no harm is done by that, it can't be difficult excluding clans from playing one another.

 

I don't record games and if I would have to watch for this I would rather just play something else.  If non clan players have no problem with this then I'm sure we will just fall in, but I will be honest it makes me feel uncomfortable.

 

And by the way I have not and will not suggest clans are cheating.

  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[SCRUB]
Players
7,298 posts
9,517 battles

I'll trust clans to not do something fishy exactly as far I trust random solo players not do the same cheating stuff. Naturally I can't speak for everyone, but the majority of clans are made up by nice fellows who simply like playing with a closeknit bunch of friends and like any other sporting gamer hate the notion of playing unfair. There's always bad eggs but I doubt you'd see them with any regularity.

Besides, how would you suggest to limit the MM in a way that clans can't play together/in the same match? Check for clantags? Anyone who wanted to could simply l leave the clan and suddenly the system could no longer distinguish that player from any other random dude in the player pool.

 

I'm fairly certain that once WG actually implements clan activities a good deal of clans (at least those who're looking to be competitive) will be spending a lot more time doing that stuff. At this moment there's simply nothing else for them to do but play the game same as everyone else.

 

As for recording games, it's a simple .ini tweak. Or even more simple yet, check out Aslain's Modpack, it has an easy to use checkbox in its modlist that will do the tweak automatically and the game will create replay files on its own that you can rewatch with the game client (plus save and distribute if you ever feel like sharing something or filing a ticket with support because something fishy went down).

  • Cool 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[TTT]
Players
1,952 posts
6,062 battles

What is stopping a group if people not in clans or in different ones of doing the same?

I can tell you it has happened plenty of times before clan tags were introduced.

 

It has been brought up before and this is WGs response. From here.

 

Just want to jump in here to clarify our stance on this issue.

 

If they sync their queuing and then end up doing their best to get a win for their team, we have no issue with it at all. As many of you know, some of the most competitive games happen when you have an opponent you know on the enemy team.

 

If on the other hand they helped clan mates on the other team in any way it is a serious rule violation. In that case, you'll need to send a replay to support and explain exactly how they rigged and when. They will then be banned. :)

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[RALLY]
Players
309 posts
8,110 battles

I appreciate what you are saying and I am sure you are right but I don't see the harm in stopping the practice altogether, if clans want to play together they have training room.  Do you not find it odd that they are manipulating the MM to get either in the same team or same game?

 

I have seen numerous examples of same types of ships being used, if they are willing to do this and co ordinate the button then they are in communication with one another.

 

For example someone on a team is salty on chat, this could result in more than six reports.

 

Someone deemed to be a poor player.

 

Premium driver early into the game etc etc

 

The potential is there and I have been victim to mass karma hits just for playing well, yes in random this can happen but not usually so many.  I have a Karma of over 100 so I am not generally rude just a little salty. 

 

As for the evidence I don't see why I should I expect WG to sort these problems out.

 

 

  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[WOTN]
Quality Poster
2,085 posts
14,036 battles

Why is the MM letting this happen? It seems a deliberate act of trying to ensure this happens.

 

The matchmaking can either be blind, biased towards placing members on one side, or biased towards splitting members between sides. I, for one, would think that forcing clan members into opposing teams is far better than defaulting to putting them into the same team. Could you imagine the kind of chaos a 6 player or 9 player division could wreak?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[TTT]
Players
1,952 posts
6,062 battles

 

The matchmaking can either be blind, biased towards placing members on one side, or biased towards splitting members between sides. I, for one, would think that forcing clan members into opposing teams is far better than defaulting to putting them into the same team. Could you imagine the kind of chaos a 6 player or 9 player division could wreak?

 

With the current MM rules it is more likely that players will be split up due to the max difference in the number of divisions on each team being 1.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[RALLY]
Players
309 posts
8,110 battles

Are all the people responding to this random players or in a clan? 

 

Yes groups of people can co ordinate true, but clans are a creation of WG and should be monitored accordingly.

 

I would love the option to opt out of division/clans altogether then it wouldn't bother me what happens but I guess that may effect population.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[WOTN]
Quality Poster
2,085 posts
14,036 battles

With the current MM rules it is more likely that players will be split up due to the max difference in the number of divisions on each team being 1.

 

Well there you go. I think the system is fine as it is right now then. Divisions tends to be far more dangerous than 3 solo players so as things stand I think it works out for the best.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[WOTN]
Quality Poster
2,085 posts
14,036 battles

Are all the people responding to this random players or in a clan? 

 

You can assume that most forum posters are members of clans, or at least extremely close knit communities. There is an immediate issue with implementing anti-clan divisioning. I'll speak from my personal point of view: I am a part of the clan 5D with 3 active clan tags to my knowledge. This means that it is quite often that I would be dropping into a battle with this kind of configuration as an example:

  1. [5D] dasCKD
  2. [-5D2-] username2
  3. [-5D3-] username3

Meaning that as far as war gaming is concerned, this isn't a clan division. Would we make it so that NONE of us would be matched with players who shares ANY of our clan tags?

Assuming that the game won't match us with any players with ANY of our respective clan tags, the problem also persists when I drop into the Forumite chat for a change of pace. If we managed to end up in a match with a division from one of our respective clans, would WoWS's algorithm also prevent that? If it does, then I'm afraid that this mechanic is insanely exploitable. Imagine for example if some high profile clans wanted to statpad at the higher tiers. I'll use TTT and OM as the example here. If they came to an agreement, they can effectively cross division in order to basically avoid a large number of the best players on the server at any specific time frame and therefore further increase their already considerable power. i.e.

Division 1

  1. [OM] username4
  2. [OM2] username5
  3. [TTT] username6

Division 2

  1. [OM2] username7
  2. [TT2] username8
  3. [TT3] username9

 

Now the two divisions never have to meet each other. A large scale implementation of this could have massive fundamental issues especially as server population could drop as low as 2000 players at certain times and we are further narrowing for tiers and team compositions.

 

The simple fact is that any algorithm that is disclosed would simply be far too exploitable, and any algorithm that isn't disclosed would eventually be discerned.

  • Cool 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[-MM]
Players
99 posts
10,298 battles

We do countdown in my clan. You want to know how competitive it gets? We won't even tell the other division what our ship composition is - and if we do get on opposing sides we switch ts channels so the foul enemy can't hear our devious plans.

And as there are major bragging rights to be had killing your opposite clan member (and much salty chat in game) then no, there is no 'fixing' of games - we all want to win, not lose.

  • Cool 5

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[SCRUB]
Players
7,298 posts
9,517 battles

Are all the people responding to this random players or in a clan? 

 

Yes groups of people can co ordinate true, but clans are a creation of WG and should be monitored accordingly.

 

I would love the option to opt out of division/clans altogether then it wouldn't bother me what happens but I guess that may effect population.

 

I am in a clan. Obviously I'm a bit biased against discriminating matchmaking in that regard, though in all honesty my opinion wouldn't change if I weren't in one.

 

And you're mistaken on an important note: clans aren't WG's doing. It's players commuting. Many of the clans you see these days have been informally around long before clans were officially introduced into this game. People used to play with friends all the time, the only difference is now they may share a clantag. I personally have been playing with a bunch of players I've come to know very regularily. In fact I only rarely play solo these days and that started well before I joined the clan. Those same players I played with also happen to be in the clan that I was invited to and ultimately joined.

 

I get where you come from (though I'd disagree about this being cause for concern for the reasons I've given), but the most important argument here is that it's more or less impossible to adjust the matchmaking in the way you'd like it to as there's too many variables that WG simply can't account for (the premier being that people can still play together, communicating over TeamSpeak, etc. without actually being in a clan, hence filtering the matchmaker for clans wouldn't effect any of those players, at which wpoint you'd have to ask yourself if it would be fair to potentionally unfairly penalize clans vs non-clan players).

 

On another note, any particular reason why you wouldn't want to try out playing with a clan yourself? Lots of flavours to be found in the recruitment section, from highly competitive all the way down to mostly social clans and my experience during my gaming years has shown that you can become fast friends with otherwise total strangers and you may be surprised how quickly it might grow on you (particularily in games that promote/require teamwork!). Warning though, it can spoil you rotten and you might not be able to enjoy playing alone when you've gotten used to having people that watch your back.

Edited by Aotearas
  • Cool 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[OMNI]
[OMNI]
Players
908 posts
10,097 battles

We always queue in together to end up in the same game, this way we can win easier if we are in the same team or tell each other the position of ships that are remaining, it's a common thing we do it every day in ranked, randoms, clan wars, co-op battles.

 

God

Dammit

When

Will

People

Stop

With

This

Crap

:nerv_fish:

Edited by _FTD_
  • Cool 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[RALLY]
Players
309 posts
8,110 battles

Well some people have made very compelling arguments and are clearly passionate about the game and being part of a community.  Unfortunately we cannot have a debate about this because as a random my opinion clearly isn't welcome and doesn't fit into some peoples version of there game, who chooses to play alone but also attempts to work as a team with total strangers.

 

My games are 100% solo by choice, I have no problem with people being in clans but all I ask for is that they don't play on opposing sides.  No pitch forks just a simple request, please don't all choose the same ships and join at the same time, a simple request.  If members who care about the game cannot at least see this sort of co operation bothers people playing then perhaps they have lost touch, it's the level of communication involved that bothers me.  I am not saying people are cheating I just don't want to see it in the game, I don't want to think about people potentially cooperating with one another.

 

It would be helpful to either ignore my post or at least reply in a constructive way, thanks.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[SCRUB]
Players
7,298 posts
9,517 battles

And we're back to square one: just because there's potential for some douchecanoes to cheat, why should everyone be penalized for it?

 

I'm pretty certain you're overestimating the frequency of such douchecanoeing, it really isn't common at all when I think about dodgy instances throughout my number of games so far. A handful at worst and maybe another handful that smelled fishy but might aswell just been freak-incidents.

  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Players
1,422 posts
13,022 battles

Well some people have made very compelling arguments and are clearly passionate about the game and being part of a community.  Unfortunately we cannot have a debate about this because as a random my opinion clearly isn't welcome and doesn't fit into some peoples version of there game, who chooses to play alone but also attempts to work as a team with total strangers.

 

My games are 100% solo by choice, I have no problem with people being in clans but all I ask for is that they don't play on opposing sides.  No pitch forks just a simple request, please don't all choose the same ships and join at the same time, a simple request.  If members who care about the game cannot at least see this sort of co operation bothers people playing then perhaps they have lost touch, it's the level of communication involved that bothers me.  I am not saying people are cheating I just don't want to see it in the game, I don't want to think about people potentially cooperating with one another.

 

It would be helpful to either ignore my post or at least reply in a constructive way, thanks.

 

Not sure if you are trolling or not, but clans cannot control if they end up on the same team or the opposing team. In my opinion this a bad game mechanic in general. Clans should be able to play together more that 3 pr game. Again: World of Warships is a MULTIPLAYER game. Not singleplayer. 

  • Cool 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[-TXG-]
Players
2,367 posts

Well some people have made very compelling arguments and are clearly passionate about the game and being part of a community.  Unfortunately we cannot have a debate about this because as a random my opinion clearly isn't welcome and doesn't fit into some peoples version of there game, who chooses to play alone but also attempts to work as a team with total strangers.

 

My games are 100% solo by choice, I have no problem with people being in clans but all I ask for is that they don't play on opposing sides.  No pitch forks just a simple request, please don't all choose the same ships and join at the same time, a simple request.  If members who care about the game cannot at least see this sort of co operation bothers people playing then perhaps they have lost touch, it's the level of communication involved that bothers me.  I am not saying people are cheating I just don't want to see it in the game, I don't want to think about people potentially cooperating with one another.

 

It would be helpful to either ignore my post or at least reply in a constructive way, thanks.

 

WG should ban clan members from replying to forum threads that concern banning them from being in the same battle. :hiding:

 

There are probably a fair amount of 'solo' players on TS that you will never spot, counting down and getting into the same battles. As has been said by others 99.9% or higher clans will go out to be more competitive against each other than in a normal battle.

 

World of Tanks clan cheating is the main cause of this mistrust from solo players in WOWS so I can understand why the suspicions are there OP. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[RALLY]
Players
309 posts
8,110 battles

Thanks some good points to think about.   I do feel though that some are not looking at the bigger picture.   Im not talking about cheating!!  I am talking about friends/clan friends however this is classed manipulating the game to ensure they play with one another. 

 

If Im honest I find it difficult that some people aren't seeing this,  it is a game manipulation to try and ensure they are either on the same team or opposition team.   I believe most people will try and beat the fellow clan members but that still doesn't feel right. 

 

Multiplayer game doesn't equal clan player sorry that's just not right,  more randoms are in this game than clan players.   I see this manipulation every day but I am not saying I see any cheating and quite frankly I am not looking for it. 

 

If the clans are so desperate to play against one another what's wrong with the training room? 

 

Well I do appreciate some of the points put forward,  this is not a post about cheating either,  my time is valuable enough for this not to be a troll and I do find it astonishing that some players cannot see at least where I am coming from. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Beta Tester
1,339 posts
5,189 battles

If the clans are so desperate to play against one another what's wrong with the training room? 

Because there are no bragging rights and profit from killing your fellow clan member in a training room. Hell when I was in an active clan in WoT a while back we did this all the time much like Khitan said. Get on TS, do a countdown, then go into separate channels, play the game, and then rejoin in a channel after the game is over and gloat.

 

As long as there is no clear rigging going on (and I don't think I have ever seen it, and unless there is a mission going on I see no reason to rig a normal random battle) Clans can beat the snot out of each other to their hearts content if they like.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[SCRUB]
Players
2,384 posts
7,744 battles

 

[edited]. You can not judge people simply by the shape of their clantag... we have the same rights to play randoms together, just like any friends without clantag. ..

Edited by RogDodgeUK
This post has been edited by a member of the Moderation Team, due to forum rules violation. RogDodgeUK

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[AWG]
Beta Tester
608 posts
8,648 battles

Thanks some good points to think about.   I do feel though that some are not looking at the bigger picture.   Im not talking about cheating!!  I am talking about friends/clan friends however this is classed manipulating the game to ensure they play with one another.

 

If Im honest I find it difficult that some people aren't seeing this,  it is a game manipulation to try and ensure they are either on the same team or opposition team.   I believe most people will try and beat the fellow clan members but that still doesn't feel right.

 

Multiplayer game doesn't equal clan player sorry that's just not right,  more randoms are in this game than clan players.   I see this manipulation every day but I am not saying I see any cheating and quite frankly I am not looking for it.

 

If the clans are so desperate to play against one another what's wrong with the training room?

 

Well I do appreciate some of the points put forward,  this is not a post about cheating either,  my time is valuable enough for this not to be a troll and I do find it astonishing that some players cannot see at least where I am coming from.

 

 

And you are so stuck in your micro picture view and dislike of clans and your own perceived "manipulation" that you remain oblivious.

We find it difficult that you cannot move past your own dislike of the entire clan system.

You are against the perceived "manipulation" because it "still doesn't feel right" and you can't offer a single bit of why this is wrong beyond your own "feelings".

 

 

So, as a clan leader myself - let me jump in here.  We have quite frequently engaged in the countdown and battle sync.  At times, we've had two or three divisions in the same match.  I had to put a halt to it, because honestly, it was resulting in poor gameplay.  We had clan members yolo'ing and focusing exclusively on fellow clan members on the opposite team.  It was fun for awhile.  It resulted in some good salty banter and bragging rights where x clan member sunk y clan member - but I slowed down the practice because it was teaching poor game mechanics.

 

 

If you are so against the very concept of clans - perhaps you should just go play another game.  Clans have been, and will always be, a vital part of Wargaming games (World of Warships and World of Tanks), and in fact, are a vital part of almost all online multi-player games.  If this concept hurts your feelings this much - go play something else and enjoy your solo life.

  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[RALLY]
Players
309 posts
8,110 battles

Hi Gunny

 

I'm grateful for the reply, funny enough the only clan I have ever considered applying for is yours.  One of your members is a really good guy who is always telling me what a great fun clan you have and how I would really enjoy it, you have definitely had a effect on that and what I will do in the future thank you.

 

So it's fair to say I am probably having the wrong conversation within this forum and I think it's best for me to do as you say, move on or move off.  However surely this is a reflection on the forum and what topics are allowed to be discussed or not.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[-TXG-]
Players
2,367 posts

 

So, as a clan leader myself - let me jump in here.  We have quite frequently engaged in the countdown and battle sync.  At times, we've had two or three divisions in the same match.  I had to put a halt to it, because honestly, it was resulting in poor gameplay.  We had clan members yolo'ing and focusing exclusively on fellow clan members on the opposite team.  It was fun for awhile.  It resulted in some good salty banter and bragging rights where x clan member sunk y clan member - but I slowed down the practice because it was teaching poor game mechanics.

 

 

 

I have to agree with this Gunny...my clan does countdowns most evenings and I also find that I play very differently (worse mostly) when members are also on the other team. The banter drags you into forgetting the rest of the team and firing at clan members when there are better targets. I mostly tend to avoid the countdowns recently because of this. I have pretty much always enjoyed playing solo but join in on divisions aswell. Luckily ranked battles keep me from joining in less at the moment. :)

Edited by bushwacker001

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Beta Tester
1,339 posts
5,189 battles

However surely this is a reflection on the forum and what topics are allowed to be discussed or not.  

 

Is it? Most topics are offcourse allowed but what happend here is that people don't agree with what you consider a potential issue. So the backlash is just people who disagree or has another view.
  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Sign in to follow this  

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×