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lord_yggdrasill

Just another IJN DD rant

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It has been a while now since the IJN DDs got their split and I thought it would be a good time to talk about my fellings about them in a pretty lengthy post. After having played them all pre and post split, I want to present my opinion on what their flaws are and why I still think that they need to be buffed.

 

First of all let's look at some statistics. If you check the winrates and average experience of all DDs from T6 to T10 you will find an IJN DD at the bottom. So it's not just one or two ships underperforming, it's an entire line of ships. However there are some exceptions: the T6 Shinonome (premium; reward for advanced players with high tier ships -> understandibly outperforms everything at T6) and the destroyers of the new subbranch. I wont talk much about Akizuki because she plays completely different to all other IJN DDs (very gun focused; big, slow and sluggish). The two Ships leading up to the Akizuki are interesting though. The Hatsuharu is performing ok at T6 and better than Fubuki. But the most outstanding ship is the Shiratsuyu at T7 which is currently the best (statisticaly speaking) DD for its tier. One reason for this is probably the fact that the line spit is still too recent and mostly dedicated players with some experience in IJN DDs are currently grinding towards the Akizuki. This however does not explain the huge difference between Akatsuki and Shiratsuyu at Tier 7 (we are speaking of a 6% difference in winrate and about 50% more experience and damage for Shiratsuyu).

Looking a bit more into the stats of these two Ships you can get a bit confused. Akatsuki is the same in terms of her gun and torpedo performence while having one extra gun, 4 knots higher top speed and an extra torpedo tube with a more favourable launcher setup (3x3 vs 2x4) therefore having a 25% better reload speed on those tubes. Ignoring some very minor differences in HP and range the only things Shiratsuyu has going for her are a bit better maneuverability and massively better concealment. In addition to this Shiratsuyu has the torpedo reload booster consumable on a seperate slot which reduces the torpedo reload to 5 seconds once every 6 minutes (4 with premium). Her output of torpedoes over 10 minutes even with using the consumable is lower than Akatsukis.

In practice and my personal experience these two advantages of Shiratsuyu are crucial to her success. The concealment advantage over any other ship at T7 is huge (we are talking about nearly a kilometer here) so you can dictate a combat with another destroyer by engaging only in favourable fights and sneak up an your main target (enemy BBs) very easily. The second advantage is your torpedo reload booster. If this consumable is ready you basicly have a 4x4 torpedo setup (yes, this is one more torpedo than a Shimakaze) and you can freely engage multible targets at once. Need to lay a big torpedo wall for area denial? No problem. Fire your torps at two or even three different targets in different directions? No problem. Steaming around a corner into the face of an enemy BB and your torps are still on a 40 second cooldown? Just press one button and you are good to go. Remember however that this will not give you an insane output of torps. The real advantage of this consumable is flexibility. So keep these two important advantages in mind for later: concealment and torpedo flexibility.

 

Secondly, I will take a look and directly compaire two high tier DDs to understand the flaws of especially T8 to T10 where I feel IJN DDs are struggeling the most right now. The destroyers that come to mind are the Yuugumo and the USS Fletscher at tier 9.

Covering the basics first, Fletcher has the egde in HP, speed and maneuverability while Yuugumo has better concealment. All of these values are however not too different and you could say they are pretty on par. Looking at the guns you immediately see a massive advantage for the Fletcher: 50% more rounds per minute and astronomicly better turret traverse and much more range. HE and AP performence are similar with the Yuugumo having better fire chance and better shell arcs. Overall however the Fletcher just outclasses the Yuugumo in a direct gun duel with much more dpm and even against other ship types Fletcher outperforms Yuugumo in gun capability. And that is not a problem at all. The role of USN DDs is fighting over caps in close quarters combat with other DDs and their toolkit is perfect for this task (stealthy, maneuverable, insane dpm and turret traverse). They can also aid their team with long lasting smokes and long range fire support. The real problem arises if you look at the torpedoes: Speed and range are nearly identical. The Yuugumo torps deal about 10% more damage, but the Fletcher beats the Yuugumo in reload (only a few seconds) while having more torps (2x5 vs 2x4) and one realy important stat: torpedo detectability (1.4km vs 1.7km). I would argue that dealing 10% more damage per torpedo is realy not a big deal at all and gets already accounted for by reloading a bit faster and having more torps to fire. Which leaves the detectibility as the one factor that puts Fletchers torpedo armament above the Yuugumos. But I hear you saying: "Fletcher is one of the best DDs in the game, of course it's overall better than a Yuugumo". Yes, I agree with that. But the fact remains that a USN DD is beating the IJNs speciality. And it's not only the Fletcher. Look at the Z-46, which has massively less damage on its torps (14400 vs 20967), but also reloads his tubes 22 seconds (ca. 20%) faster than Yuugumo while having the same speed and range. The detectability difference is the same as with the Fletcher. So overall you are looking at pretty compairable torpedo armaments while Z-46 still has 50% more shells per minute. And german DDs don't have a good reputation at the moment.

We can take this as an example of what the high tier IJN DDs are suffering from. On lower tiers IJN have the best torpedo armament by far. While the USN DDs have kind of crappy range and speed, the Russians have their suicide torpedoes and the Germans are looking pretty good, the IJN DDs already have the capacility to stealth torp with relative ease and good speed. Going up to the higher tiers however, the other nations close the cap in terms of torpedo performence and are overall mostly on par or only a little behind the Japanese. On the other hand the cap in gun performence is still the same. To summerize what we need to keep in mind: lack of speciality at higher tiers and the detectability issue.

 

The Split of the line itself brought some "interesting" changes as well. IJN DDs got better rate of fire while loosing their big alpha damage and fire chance on their HE ammunition. Overall these changes pretty much compensated each other and resulted in only small nerfs or buffs. At least on paper. The higher alpha damage was an advantage when taking shots of opportunity or at getting the jump on an enemy DD undetected. It was some kind of national flavor that got lost with the changes. Overall however by moving some ships down in tier WG mostly replaced ships with better ones. The Akatsuki and Shiratsuyu are definitivly improvements over the old Hastuharu and the same can be said about the Yuugumo replacing the Kagerou. Nevertheless when looking at the current statistics of the new ships we dont see any improvements over the old ones. They are mostly performing on a similar level as before. We can try to explain this by looking and the game in general:

 

There are so much things that have changed over the last year, most of which made the life of destroyers harder. Let me try to explain to anyone who was not part of the closed beta what I mean with that. The Shimakaze for exaple was just a godlike ship. Sailing around the map undetected with the best speed of any ship at the time while launching waves of 15 torpedoes with 20 km range and good concealment on them was hilarious. You would regularly get games with over 100k damage and nobody on the enemy team ever saw you once. It was super easy and totally op and nobody with any sanity wants this back in the game. WG did the right thing and nerfed the Shimakaze. But with the game developing more and more, the Shima and every other IJN DD in the game got slowly but surely indirectly nerfed. Back in the day only aircraft and ships themseves were spotting your torps. Nowadays there is hydro on any number of ships especially since the introduction of the Kriegsmarine and since the captain skills got changed there are much more aircraft floating around. But not only is torpedo play increasingly difficult, your ship itself is in more danger of being sunk. Russian cruisers brought radar in the game and their destroyers are lightning fast with massive firepower. Last but not least RPF made it into the game and while not gamebreaking, it made destroyer life harder. So the meta changed so much that DDs got a harder time staying alive and torpedoes where made less of threat. But IJN DDs did not change and are in a bad state for some time now.

 

Before I state some possible changes that I would suggest to improve the state of  IJN DDs, I have some final thoughts.

  • First of all I still like IJN DDs. The torpedo focused playstyle is enjoying for me because it involves so much predicting to be done. Where will all the ships around me be in a minute when my torps are reloaded? Were should I go to be save from enemies but still habe a good ambush position? 
  • I understand that WoWs is an arcade game, but why on earth is radar going through islands?
  • I also get that balance is more important than historical facts, but the Japanese used oxygen in their torpedoes because that ensured better range, speed and decetability than the usual torpedo has. Why is every IJN torpedo in the game more visible than any other torpedo?

 

Which bringst me to the final point of my rant: suggestions for improvement of IJN DDs:

We learned by looking at different things what makes IJN DDs strong: A good concealment advantage over other DDs and a flexible torpedo armament that outperformes any other nation. They suffer however in exactly that regard by having too large detection ranges on their torpedoes and the fact, that high tier IJN DDs dont excell in their role that much. Shimakazes get outspottet by Fletchers and Gearings (same camo), Yuugumo has not the best torps at T9, etc.

Therefore some possible ways to adress these issues are:

  • reduce the detectability of all IJN torpedoes to the same level of other nations
  • make their torpedoes faster than other nations or longer range (high tier; last one is not good for the game)
  • improve their concealment on the ships themself to give them the edge they need over other DDs
  • improve their gun performence by giving them back their old shells and/or better turret traverse (not my prefered approach)
  • give all IJN DDs access to the reload booster consumable in a seperate slot (with rebalancing it, not just a 5 second reload, that would be op; more in the lines of cutting the reload in half once every 5 minutes or so)

 

It just needs one of these things (NOT ALL) to give the IJN DDs back their pride as the pinackle of torpedo ninjas. Thanks for listening to my overly lengthy rant about IJN DDs. Feel free to discuss in a well-mannered fashion.

Edited by lord_yggdrasill
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What a read...

But you pretty much nailed it. I would add a few more things which made DD life a lot harder since CBT: IJN CVs with lots of squads, implementation of speed affecting turn rate (tighter turns when slowing down) etc. Before that, yes the Shimakaze was pretty OP. But by the point the direct nerfs came? Nah, not even close. It had worse performance than any tier 10 ship, although the difference wasn't as huge as it is now. And it never had "stealthy" 20km torps (1.7km and +5 kts faster), they just wasn't as ludicrously nerfed as they are now.

 

If WG had the balls they would revert the HE shell nerfs and see how that would effect the performance of the IJN DDs. I'll bet you that it would not break the balance in any way, but it would sure help the struggling DDs.

 

But arguing from the point of actual ship performance makes no difference to WG.

From the answers they've given in various Q&As, they use balance only as a substitute for matchmaking rules. They will only buff a ship if it's not getting played enough and they will never buff a ship which people still play enough, no matter how badly it performs.

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I just want my turret traverse to be at least equal to my ship turning speed (without picking expert marksman).

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Well written summary of the current state of IJN DDs. Thank you for that! Before is get started with my reply pls note that that i am a completely biased DD fanboy^^

 

Sure thing, IJN DDs were probably nerfed like no other ship-tree since the start of the open beta (maybe except CVs). I didnt like that, you can take my word for it, but it made sense. Longrange torpspamming was fun, but only for the captains of IJN DDs, like the OP already explained. So they nerfed them, and again and again until they finally recognised that they are kinda underperforming (i think they did mention it in a Q&A last month?).

 

So WG has decided to look into that matter, and with the current buff to flooding damage they are already taking action. But, and here comes my point, this buff shows, that they are struggling to find the "best" way to buff the IJN DDs. It seems that they simply arent sure how to buff them without breaking the game again^^ What am i saying you might ask? Well if we look at the current IJN DDs it appears that they are clearly underperforming when looking at the stats. But despite of these many nerfs they are still the most played DD tree (overall) in the game!

How does this fit together? Why is a whole tree that has been nerfed into the ground and beyond still that popular? My guess would be because of the unique playstyle these DDs are offering: Doing damage while beeing (in most cases) undetected is just fun. Watching the oblivious BB sailing straight into your torpwall is just hilarious. And you can do this whithout receiving damage in return! These possibilities just seem to be really attractive to many players and that is the problem with IJN DDs. If you buff them a tiny little bit too much, player numbers will probably rise extraordinary and influence the whole game again. Atleast thats what WG is probably fearing!

 

A nice example for this assumption would be the introduction of the german BBs. Powerful BBs that can sail broadside on without getting totally wrecked like the counterparts of other nations and with fearsome secondary batteries. The players obviously really like these ships and that playstyle so the numbers are rising skyhigh. And with many players that are playing one tree with a specific playstyle, they are affecting the whole game and changing the meta. Its up to you to judge that change^^

 

So to avoid buffing the IJN DDs in a way that would make them probably one of the most played trees in the game, WG decided to do minor tweaks instead of huge buffs like lowering the detection range if IJN torps. They probably are just trying to raise the overall stats of these DDs a bit, without raising the playerbase. That brings me to the conclusion, that we will never see huge buffs like detection range, torp range/speed or others. Its sad, i know, but if you make the shima stronger than the gearing again we could be back to torp-soup times in no time^^

And lets face it guys...the IJN DDs arent half as bad as everyone is trying to make them! In the right hands you can still dominate games, but you arent able to turn nearly every match around like in the old times, when i was running amok with my kamikaze/fubuki and whatever...

 

If there will be a big change in the DD meta in the future i would bet my money on a slight nerf of hightier US-DDs rather then a huge buff to the IJN ones!

 

Hope my thoughts are understandable and i am not offending too much of you:hiding:

 

greetz

 

 

 

 

 

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You guys bring up very valid points and I totally agree. IJN DDs are still played very frequently, you rarely see a game without one. And yes, this comes mostly down to the different playstyle that a lot of people enjoy, me (obviously) included. What I made my post for was not asking for a massive buff on multiple points i raised. I would rather like a few tweaks at one or two stats, because that's what balancing is all about.

 

For example:

Why does the Shimakaze lose gun performance in compairison to the Yuugumo? To make up for getting nearly double the amount of torps? Probably. But other ship lines also get way more poweful at T10.

Why do the Shima torps have a higher torpedo redectability in compairison to the Yuugumo (1.9 vs 1.7) while having the same speed? Usually in this game Speed and Dectetebility are correlated (at least within a nation).

Why does the Gearing still has 16.5km torps? WG does not like long range torps (and I understand that), so why is this still in the game?

 

Little things like this would make the Shimakaze more competitive and not not break the game. The Shimakaze especially really frustrated me lately. Helping your team by trying to cap something at the beginning of a match can just be suicide. You get detected by radar or a Fletcher/Gearing at the same time you detect them, everybody is turning their guns towards you and you are done or very crippled. Having this experience multible times made me pretty much abandon caps at the start.

Then I jump into my Shiratsuyu and suddenly you feel much stronger. You decide when to engage someone, there is less radar and hydro around. I overall have a 75% win rate and identical average damage numbers to my Shimakaze. Yes, Shirastuyu is a bit overpowered. Which is just so weird when you look at her stats, because all of this comes down to the stealth and reload booster. Hence why I suggested to look into this option as a special thing for IJN DDs.

Torpedoes in general are very unforgiving and not a very flexible armament. With reloads over two minutes at higher tier it would really help having a shorter reload in specific situations. Because that is exactly what makes Shirastuyu a (too?) strong ship. Having the option to reduce said reload to let's say one minute once or twice in a game would make the Shimakaze a much more unpredictable enemy. When you currently are sailing around in your Yamato and you see Shima torps coming your way you dodge them and then ignore the fact that there is a Shima somewhere for two minutes. I experienced many situations when playing the Shiratsuyu where your enemy is just surprised you already have more torps to go and call you a hacker. This is just an idea of how you could go to improve the gamplay experience of IJN DDs.

 

My main reasoning for all of this is also something you stated: WG lacks a vision and direction of what to do with IJN DDs. Their guns will never be on par with other nations and thats fine. They are good enough for what they need to be. A secondary armament that can surprise people at times, finish off low health DDs, setting a fire or two, etc.

It just gets frustrating in situations where you should be rewarded: Sneaking up successfully on the enemies side, launching your torps and then seeing the enemy BB just dodge all but one of them because he can spot them nearly 2km before they hit. He takes maybe 10-15k damage, repairs the flooding, heals up and nothing really has happened. You now sit there with your main armament on a 100-120 second reload with not really that much options other than smoking up and trying to set a fire or going for a cap or just reposition for your next attack. A good play by an IJN DD can get destroyed by so many things out of your control. A 0.1 to 0.2 km buff to torpedo detectability would therefore already be a welcome change.

 

You see I could talk about this for hours without end. I'm just passionate about the game and want it to be as fun as possible for everybody. :)

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Well if we look at the current IJN DDs it appears that they are clearly underperforming when looking at the stats. But despite of these many nerfs they are still the most played DD tree (overall) in the game!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Great explanation but cant see how this can be true? On paper possibly...in game they feel like they clearly dominate due to their excellent concealment and torp spam from Hell!! hence why they are so popular. Agreed I think they should buff usn to BALANCE this IN THE GAME not on paper. PAPER and GAME These seem to be 2 entirely different worlds within the current meta....perhaps they (WG) should errr play a bit more....... they might get a better FEEEL of the game rather than relying on figures and then buffing/nerfing unnecessarily:hiding:.....

 

 

Edited by SeaWolf7

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Therefore some possible ways to adress these issues are:

  • reduce the detectability of all IJN torpedoes to the same level of other nations
  • make their torpedoes faster than other nations or longer range (high tier; last one is not good for the game)
  • improve their concealment on the ships themself to give them the edge they need over other DDs
  • improve their gun performence by giving them back their old shells and/or better turret traverse (not my prefered approach)
  • give all IJN DDs access to the reload booster consumable in a seperate slot (with rebalancing it, not just a 5 second reload, that would be op; more in the lines of cutting the reload in half once every 5 minutes or so)

 

It just needs one of these things (NOT ALL) to give the IJN DDs back their pride as the pinackle of torpedo ninjas. Thanks for listening to my overly lengthy rant about IJN DDs. Feel free to discuss in a well-mannered fashion.

Good post.

 

Any buff to torpedoes could/would/might effect every Japanese DD, while some of the Japanese DDs are ok now.  

 

 

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So to avoid buffing the IJN DDs in a way that would make them probably one of the most played trees in the game,

 

I would prefer... harder to play but more rewarding.  A difficult adjustment.

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I know WG said they want RN CLs to be the only ships with the "Single Torp Launch" Feature, but WHY? After i played RN Ships i noticed that it was far more rewarding to use Torps. All other Torp Armed ships suffer from Huge RNG, and what is most anoying for them: Even with a perfect Torp Voley on a not Manuvering Ship you can only Hope to get a 20% Hitrate because of the HUGE spread,Even on 8 KM you can fit 2 GKs into them and now they start to Manuver as well.so your Hitrate is "good" if it is 5-10%.

 

Minekaze ( and clones ) eg is ( in my Opinion ) so good because the doublelaunchers create so tight spreads that you can hit 6/6 of your torps,

in my opinion that is why you are more succesful with torps on Lowtier, and not because People are stupid. Try that even with the 3-Lauchers of the lext 3 Ships in the line.

 

The Long Range Torps were only so good because you cound hit Targets you were not aiming for and get an Advantage out of the huge Area you cover.

We dont want Long Range Torp Spamm ? well give something in return.

 

Aiming Single Torps is very Skilldependent, so why you dont give it the Torpspezialist IJN DDs? RN CLs still have great Firepower and Smoke dont see the issue here as the torps are only a Bonus for them.

It would even justifi the IJN having easyer to spot torps as they become more difficult to evade if you spot them but didnt Change your Course before, you can see them but maby there is no space for you.

 

Ist just so SAD if you see Shimas hitting always only 1/15 Torps because 90% are worseless against somebody bow on to you ( even at Ranges Below 6 KM )

Edited by General_Alexus

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I just want my turret traverse to be at least equal to my ship turning speed (without picking expert marksman).

 

Oh here you hit my POV straight in the soft spot! To my horror I recently discovered the USN DD's have pretty much the same concealment (give or take 100m) as the IJN's have! With their horrible Warspite traverse speeds I don't feel like I'm having any chance in a knife fight! I have to sail in a straight line for 5 millenia in order to bring a gun to bear. By that time I'm immune to fire a long time ago!

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I really don't understand why the gun damage was nerfed. They killed the last positive aspect of IJN guns, now they really are next to useless. I look at my Udaloi and at my Fletcher and I wonder why.

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And lets face it guys...the IJN DDs arent half as bad as everyone is trying to make them! In the right hands you can still dominate games, but you arent able to turn nearly every match around like in the old times, when i was running amok with my kamikaze/fubuki and whatever...

 

In the right hands you can dominate games with just about any ship.

 

I just want my turret traverse to be at least equal to my ship turning speed (without picking expert marksman).

 

This is the comfort zone for me as well. For instance, I find Yorck absolutely terrible because the guns turn slower than the ship. But it's also what I like about Bismarck's guns. I can turn and aim at the same time, so I don't have to straightline just to be able to fire anything at all.

 

This is also an issue that's far more severe with the new nerfed gun characteristics of the IJN DD guns. With a faster reload speed, you lose far more with a slow turret traverse, since you need to have your guns pointed at the target for a longer period of time. With the old ones, it was much easier to shoot once, dodge a bit, then turn back and shoot, and repeat as long as you have health. Now if you do the same you're sitting for longer with loaded guns but unable to fire them. Or you can sail in a straighter line and take a ton more damage. So it's a nerf in an area where they were already weaker than other destroyers.

 

 

 

 

 

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**snip snip**

  • reduce the detectability of all IJN torpedoes to the same level of other nations
  • make their torpedoes faster than other nations or longer range (high tier; last one is not good for the game)

 

This.

Don't touch anything on other nations, don't rework IJN line meta any further: just adjust 1 of this 2 parameters so that IJN can have 1 single edge over other nations in a field that was actually his signature.

 

Good post Yggdrasil.

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The problem with any solution that buffs guns or torpedoes (as it stand right now)... the main line and alternate line use the same weapons.  Any buff to these systems will effect the alternate line which doesn't need a buff


Akatsuki — Japanese Tier VII destroyer.

127 mm/50 3rd Year Type

Type90 mod. 1 - 610 mm Triple 3x3

 

Shiratsuyu — Japanese Tier VII destroyer.

127 mm/50 3rd Year Type

Type90 mod. 1- 610 mm Quad 2 х 4 

 

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The problem with any solution that buffs guns or torpedoes (as it stand right now)... the main line and alternate line use the same weapons.  Any buff to these systems will effect the alternate line which doesn't need a buff


Akatsuki — Japanese Tier VII destroyer.
127 mm/50 3rd Year Type
Type90 mod. 1 - 610 mm Triple 3x3

 

Shiratsuyu — Japanese Tier VII destroyer.
127 mm/50 3rd Year Type
Type90 mod. 1- 610 mm Quad 2 х 4 

 

Just remove the torpedo reload booster. It was a bad idea anyway.

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Just remove the torpedo reload booster. It was a bad idea anyway.

 

I don't think it's a good idea to remove even more of what's actually unique. And without that, you're going to have to give some significant buffs.

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I don't think it's a good idea to remove even more of what's actually unique. And without that, you're going to have to give some significant buffs.

 

Unique != good

 

This was a suggestion to balance out returning the pre-nerf HE shells. Right now the DDs with the torpedo consumable are the strongest. If you remove it to get them more in line with the rest and then buff them all, you'll end up with a more balanced IJN DD spread.

 

Personally I'm generally against gimmicky abilities to add "uniqueness" because for the most part it just adds another thing that isn't in any way connected to the core game. It's like they just staple on isolated magic abilities.

There are so many ways you can create unique ships by just combining different stats in a logical and pseudo-realistic way. No need to come up with more and more arcane spells.

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Unique != good

 

In this case I find it is. It brings up new tactics and mind games.

 

And no, it wouldn't balance out returning to pre-nerf HE shells. At the end of it, Shiratsuyu isn't a gunboat. It's a torpedo boat. Nerfing the main weapon by a lot in favour of buffing the secondary weapon marginally is a nerf.

 

Okay, you're against gimmicky abilities that aren't connected to the core game. That doesn't include the Torpedo Reload Booster. All it really does is lowers the reload for the main weapon of the destroyers using it. Unless you also want to remove radar, sonar, float planes, smoke, speed boost, repair and damage control parties, most of the captain skills...

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In this case I find it is. It brings up new tactics and mind games.

 

And no, it wouldn't balance out returning to pre-nerf HE shells. At the end of it, Shiratsuyu isn't a gunboat. It's a torpedo boat. Nerfing the main weapon by a lot in favour of buffing the secondary weapon marginally is a nerf.

 

Okay, you're against gimmicky abilities that aren't connected to the core game. That doesn't include the Torpedo Reload Booster. All it really does is lowers the reload for the main weapon of the destroyers using it. Unless you also want to remove radar, sonar, float planes, smoke, speed boost, repair and damage control parties, most of the captain skills...

 

Some of those in-battle abilities I would remove if it was up to me, yes.

 

I'd gladly lose out on some torpedo output on the best performing DDs if it meant that the entire IJN DD fleet could become more balanced.

Let's face it, giving up some of the highly random damage output that WG is trying to kill, for some more reliable firepower would be a net win for the ships.

If I'm picking something to buff right now on IJN DDs it's going to be guns. WG sure as hell isn't going to buff the torpedoes anyway. They are much more likely to nerf other nations torps than buff the IJN ones.

 

Don't get me wrong. In my perfect utopia of WoWs, IJN DDs as torpedo ships would be viable. But that's not in the cards for them. Even when they were balanced (during CBT days) it was still mostly down to your enemies lack of skill rather than your high skill which payed out. Now you might as well just throw torpedoes at random. If a BB happens to be in the middle of a turn as the torpedoes arrive, you may have a chance of hitting. You still get torp hits now and then but it's mostly versus the baddies and the odd single hit on the bow or stern as the BB turns in/away. All the while you're probably not doing the DD things you should, and if you do you're at a disadvantage versus other DDs as a payment for a questionable advantage in dice rolling for damage.

In WGs WoWs torpedoes will always be a secondary armament, so why insist on keeping your primary armament sub par for a supposed better secondary one?

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Stuff.

 

I don't agree with your view of torpedoes, so I'll just leave that at that, and nerfing them while buffing guns just make every nation more the same. And honestly, WG buffing the IJN guns to the point where they're not at a disadvantage against other nations' DDs' guns is even less likely than buffing torpedoes.

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The problem with any solution that buffs guns or torpedoes (as it stand right now)... the main line and alternate line use the same weapons.  Any buff to these systems will effect the alternate line which doesn't need a buff


Akatsuki — Japanese Tier VII destroyer.
127 mm/50 3rd Year Type
Type90 mod. 1 - 610 mm Triple 3x3

 

Shiratsuyu — Japanese Tier VII destroyer.
127 mm/50 3rd Year Type
Type90 mod. 1- 610 mm Quad 2 х 4 

 

Well not exactly. Fubuki and Hatsuharu have different performing guns. Hatsuharu has both better turret rotation and faster reload. Not much but still different. So they can give Akatsuki and Shiratsuyu some difference in gun performance, except gun range, if they want to do that. Akatsuki and Shiratsuyu used somewhat different gun mounts so they performances could be balanced around them. Japanese used four types of 127mm destroyer mounts.

 

Type A - Fubuki

Type B - Akatsuki, Hatsuharu

Type C - Shiratsuyu, Kagero, Asashio

Type D - Yugumo & Shimakaze

 

WG could choose to balance guns by those mounts. Instead they choose to balance guns by tier. I'm don't understand why Yugumo and Shima has different reload time. Even more stranger is that Shimakaze has slower rof than Yugumo. Why Hatsuharu guns rotate faster than Akatsuki's ones when they use same mount type? They were more consistent with US, Soviet and German lines in that matter than Japanese.

 

Or they can choose to give them different torpedoes, either by range, speed or damage.

 

 

Just remove the torpedo reload booster. It was a bad idea anyway.

 

Without TRB Shiratsuyu would be mediocre dd, not much better than old Hatsuharu which was, at the time, already a worst performing T7 dd. But some changes could be make, like they can increase reload time from 5s to 20-30s.

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I think Yugumo should have faster reload than the Shimakaze, after all it has to have something better about it otherwise the jump between tier 9 and 10 would be ridiculously large. It doesn't make sense for a ship the tier above to get nearly twice as many torpedoes, more powerful torpedoes,a fair amount more health, and 3 knots more speed and also have more or the same main battery fire power, all in a single tier jump!

Edited by DominusEdwardius

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I just started my Fubuki. Why the heck does her torpedoes at the start have only 6km range (until you can painfully grind 14M to get the 10km upgrade) ? For a boat that have a concealement of more than 7 km, less than 10km gun range, and is not particularly agile, her gameplay is ridiculous. I feel I'm riding a Cruiser without the guns to hunt other DDs.

 

I have studied the JPN treeline and that's the only "hole" really (apart from the infamous Hamashi of course and her 8-9 km gun range) that make things so difficult. I had great fun with my Mutsuki and before Isokaze but the Fubuki, god ... You can't cap at the start because of other DD that will spot you and you can't flee before the whole enemy fleet targets you. You can't threaten enemy BBs because at 6 km and less their secondaries will murder you. The only viable tactic I found so far is hiding behind Islands and waiting for the enemy to push toward you. That still make your survability awful and when there are no Island you're just useless to your team. I try to grind some point attacking other DDs with guns when they don't have support, but of course a tier 5 JPN DD is often facing Tiers 5 to 7 DDs that are more suited for gun fights or can evade eaiser because they have 1km better concealement ....

 

And of course to top things I was in loosing teams (9 loose on first 10 games), so even harder to contribute because that's not a ship that you can save a game with when outnumbered.  

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I just started my Fubuki. Why the heck does her torpedoes at the start have only 6km range (until you can painfully grind 14M to get the 10km upgrade) ? For a boat that have a concealement of more than 7 km, less than 10km gun range, and is not particularly agile, her gameplay is ridiculous. I feel I'm riding a Cruiser without the guns to hunt other DDs.

 

I have studied the JPN treeline and that's the only "hole" really (apart from the infamous Hamashi of course and her 8-9 km gun range) that make things so difficult. I had great fun with my Mutsuki and before Isokaze but the Fubuki, god ... You can't cap at the start because of other DD that will spot you and you can't flee before the whole enemy fleet targets you. You can't threaten enemy BBs because at 6 km and less their secondaries will murder you. The only viable tactic I found so far is hiding behind Islands and waiting for the enemy to push toward you. That still make your survability awful and when there are no Island you're just useless to your team. I try to grind some point attacking other DDs with guns when they don't have support, but of course a tier 5 JPN DD is often facing Tiers 5 to 7 DDs that are more suited for gun fights or can evade eaiser because they have 1km better concealement ....

 

And of course to top things I was in loosing teams (9 loose on first 10 games), so even harder to contribute because that's not a ship that you can save a game with when outnumbered.  

 

​Yeah, that one baffles me as well. It is the same for the Hatsuharu (who at least has slightly better guns, concealment and speed), and ist was like that for the old tier VI Mutsuki. I guess it is supposed to be a free xp sink for all but the most masocistic players? I mean, what are you supposed to do in a Fubuki, when you can't launch torps without being spotted? Use your guns? Well you can take on tier V japanese DDs with some confidence, everything else is risky to hopeless. You could sit in smoke, but you need someone to do the spotting and it won't do that much damage, since the smoke duration is relatively short and ROF is low. Generally, there is not that much you can do to help your team in a Fubuki with stock torps. If you could at least upgrade them directly, it would not be as bad, but first requiring a 10k xp hull upgrade ist just cruel. 

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Good write-up, OP

 

Unfortunately IJN DDs are a liability at the moment. There is no reason whatsoever to take a IJN DD over a USN DD at the moment. The only boat that does something that USN DDs don't do is the Shima because of the triple quad launchers. But because of torpedo detection range, I would probably still take the Gearing over it.

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