Is the Kutuzov completely OP?

[avrahams1]

As you can probably understand, my answer to the question is a resounding yes, and I'd like to get your opinions on the matter.

 

What are the characteristics of the ship?

• It has 12 152MM HE spamming guns, much like the Cleaveland, only with a range of almost 20km
• It has the best AA@tier 8
• It has smoke

Its weakness is that its fragile, which I'll explain why in my opinion isn't that much of a weakness. 

 

Let's look at what counter the Kutuzov has, I claim it *effectively* has no counters, breaking the rock-paper-scissors system in WoWS.

 

• Aircraft Carriers - As previously said, it has amazing AA, best of any tier 8 ship, or at least the best cruiser AA.
• Destroyers - With Cleaveland like guns, no destroyer can take the Kutuzov head on and it doesn't take a genius to not get torpedoed.
• Other cruisers - If they can close the range they can pen your weak armor, but with 20km firing range good luck with that, even KM cruisers will have a hard time at those ranges.
• Battleships - They're supposed to be the direct counter to cruisers, however in the Kutuzov this is simply not the case.

                 The Kutuzov can melt battleships with its 12 rapid firing 152MM guns from a range of 15-20km, and the battleship has little to no chance of hitting the Kutuzov. Even if the battleship tries to shoot the Kutuzov at that range, all it takes for the Kutuzov to evade is to move a little.

 

This is why I think the kutuzov is broken, in the hands of a competent player it has no counters, and apart from the random bad luck of getting ambushed around a corner it is almost invincible on the battlefield.

 

Do you guys agree?

Am I completely wrong here?

This is just my experience from playing tier 8-10 cruiser, battleships and destroyers, which you can see in my profile I have played quite a lot.

[Ton0kki]

Kutuzovs effective range is nowhere near its maximum range. It is a good ship but it's definitely not "completely op".

[avrahams1]

Kutuzovs effective range is nowhere near its maximum range. It is a good ship but it's definitely not "completely op".

 

When you have Cleaveland guns effective range isn't that big of a deal.

Spam enough HE downrange and eventually, within 3-4 salvos i.e about 30 seconds you'll have the range.

[Gojuadorai]

well before ifhe i would have said

kutuzov is verry strong but not OP

now

it is definately boarderline OP

 

but still not nikolai kamizakze gremy belfast territory

 

[MeTaLMooSe]

Poor speed and manoeuvrability. No armour and poor concealment.

Works well as a support ship hidden in her smoke or tucked behind an island.

Excellent as long as your team is strong.

Gets deleted the minute a well aimed BB salvo hits it.

 

It's a fantastic ship and a good premium choice.

It is though a support ship and not a round winner.

OP? Well it's certainly strong but it's hardly going to be an instawin.

[General_Alexus]

Well i dont own it, but therefore i am not Biased, that is a good Thing:

 

From your Definition all German BBs are OP ( and even more than a Kutuzov could ever be ), because they have no ( important ) HARD Counter:

 

DDs dont Counter them because of Hydro.

BBs dont Counter them because they cant be citadelled

CVs dont Counter BBs at all because of broken AA

Well CAs/CLs get deleted anyway.

 

so much fun playing against 5 T9/T10 German BBs and you Team has None of them while they laugth at you.

 

Well for the Kutuzow: it has a Counter: CAs with good Stealth and Radar, all Torpedo armed Ships, all BBs in the time between Smoke, so i Count 3 Hardcounters.

[avrahams1]

well before ifhe i would have said

kutuzov is verry strong but not OP

now

it is definately boarderline OP

 

but still not nokolai kamizakze gemy belfast territory

 

 

Regardless of IFHE, the combination of that range and that rate of fire is what I think makes it OP.

 

Haven't played against the Nikolai really, but the others I really think are much less OP than the Kutuzov.

[MeTaLMooSe]

You do realise the MK has a citadel the size of Canada?

The minute it's spotted out of cover it's toast. No heal either.

[beercrazy]

if your a good to excellent player the Kutuzov is op

if your average to good player the Kutuzov is a damn good ship

if your average to god damn awful the Kutuzov is crap

 

the less than average players will sit at max range with it spamming he hoping for a fire or 2 but the good and above players tend to get closer around 10-12k and drop smoke then smack the enemy with everything it has and by god at close range the ship is like a beast getting citadel after citadel on broadside cruisers and takes the bbs with he down fast and lets not even mention a dd at around 8k cos 12 very accurate guns eat em alive

its an expensive ship for a crew trainer but is damn fun and makes credits like a boss

[avrahams1]

Well i dont own it, but therefore i am not Biased, that is a good Thing:

 

From your Definition all German BBs are OP ( and even more than a Kutuzov could ever be ), because they have no ( important ) HARD Counter:

 

DDs dont Counter them because of Hydro.

BBs dont Counter them because they cant be citadelled

CVs dont Counter BBs at all because of broken AA

Well CAs/CLs get deleted anyway.

 

so much fun playing against 5 T9/T10 German BBs and you Team has None of them while they laugth at you.

 

Well for the Kutuzow: it has a Counter: CAs with good Stealth and Radar, all Torpedo armed Ships, all BBs in the time between Smoke, so i Count 3 Hardcounters.

 

You're use of my definition on German BBs is wrong, and here's why:

* DDs are still the best hard counter to them - they're big and clumsy and vulnerable to torpedo attacks or just being set on fire over and over again.

Also, them being BBs and being the ones sitting on the front lines taking the damage sets them apart from the Kutuzov who's supposed to be sitting in the back.

 

* BBs are also counters to them - while they're hard to citadel, they're not hard to damage!

In my NC I expect to do anywhere between 15k to 25k damage on a broadside German BB.

 

About the counters you mentioned:

CAs with good Stealth and Radar - which ones are those?

The only ships that fit these criteria are the British cruisers, and they get demolished when facing other cruisers head on since they're basically big destroyers with citadels.

 

All torpedo armed ships - good luck hitting a Kutuzov camping 15km in the back with a torpedo...

All BBs - I addressed that point, there is little to no chance you'll hit the Kutuzov if he's using his range, all the while he's setting you on fire again and again.... and that's not counting the fact that he can pop his smoke at any moment, while still spamming long range HE at you.

 

 

[avrahams1]

You do realise the MK has a citadel the size of Canada?

The minute it's spotted out of cover it's toast. No heal either.

 

I explicitly said in the original post that it's armor is weak, I wanted to be as fair as I could be.

[avrahams1]

if your a good to excellent player the Kutuzov is op

if your average to good player the Kutuzov is a damn good ship

if your average to god damn awful the Kutuzov is crap

 

 

the less than average players will sit at max range with it spamming he hoping for a fire or 2 but the good and above players tend to get closer around 10-12k and drop smoke then smack the enemy with everything it has and by god at close range the ship is like a beast getting citadel after citadel on broadside cruisers and takes the bbs with he down fast and lets not even mention a dd at around 8k cos 12 very accurate guns eat em alive

its an expensive ship for a crew trainer but is damn fun and makes credits like a boss

 

Read what I wrote, that's exactly my point - at the hands of a competent player, the Kutuzov's abilities are just too OP.

[avrahams1]

Many of you write this - so I'll clarify.

I'm not saying its an easy ship or a noob friendly ship.

A wallet warrior won't be effective in it, I know that.

 

My point is that this ship is too powerful in the hands of a competent player.

[beercrazy]

 

Read what I wrote, that's exactly my point - at the hands of a competent player, the Kutuzov's abilities are just too OP.

 

but most ships in a good players hands are op

what you have to look at is if a below average player plays like a god in it regularly then its the ship that's op and not the player and then something needs doing with it

I personally don't have a problem with Kutuzov because I don't think its as op as some think it is

[RUSSIANBlAS]

IFHE and a brain makes this a monster. Let others go first and rain HE from the second line. Easy 100k damage. Just have a strong clicking finger.

[avrahams1]

 

but most ships in a good players hands are op

what you have to look at is if a below average player plays like a god in it regularly then its the ship that's op and not the player and then something needs doing with it

I personally don't have a problem with Kutuzov because I don't think its as op as some think it is

 

Really?

Show me another ship that's as OP as the Kutuzov in the hands of a good player?

 

Good players can have good games in every ships, even bad or mediocre ones.

My point is that the Kutuzov simply has too many things going for it, effectively having no counters.

 

Can you say this about any other ship? That it has no counters if driven correctly?

[beercrazy]

I haven't tired IFHE yet with it so cannot comment if that breaks the norm of this ship

[avrahams1]

IFHE and a brain makes this a monster. Let others go first and rain HE from the second line. Easy 100k damage. Just have a strong clicking finger.

 

Thank you for agreeing with me, however I claim my point stands even before IFHE was a thing.

[beercrazy]

 

Really?

Show me another ship that's as OP as the Kutuzov in the hands of a good player?

 

Good players can have good games in every ships, even bad or mediocre ones.

My point is that the Kutuzov simply has too many things going for it, effectively having no counters.

 

Can you say this about any other ship? That it has no counters if driven correctly?

 

kamikaze or versions of it

go look at the stats on average damage ect and it aint that great when people spam topic after topic about it being op

[avrahams1]

 

kamikaze or versions of it

go look at the stats on average damage ect and it aint that great when people spam topic after topic about it being op

 

I think the reason you'll find ships like the kamikaze have good stats overall is the tier at which it's in.

At tier 5 you could have players who haven't seen torpedoes yet, facing a veteran player with CE spamming torps at them from stealth, you really expect ships like these not to excel in overall damage numbers?

 

These aren't the same thing - while the kamikaze is a strong ship, like any other IJN torp spammer its strong against clueless players or in select situation where you manage to ambush someone.

[RUSSIANBlAS]

 

Thank you for agreeing with me, however I claim my point stands even before IFHE was a thing.

 

 Oh totally, it's essentially op now rather than just good. If a T8 Ranked comes up again and the meta doesn't change I'm going Russian.

[RUSSIANBlAS]

My favourite Kutuzov moments are when a BB tries to rush you in smoke, they take brutal HE and fire damage then flood&torps. Most of the smarter ones will hide or shoot something else until your cloud goes.

[steviln]

You do realise the MK has a citadel the size of Canada?

The minute it's spotted out of cover it's toast. No heal either.

 

You are not going to citadel the Kutuzov that easily at maximum range. Feel that many people on this board overestimate how easy it is to hit a cruiser at almost 20 km. The cruiser can just watch the BB fire and then turn to avoid getting a bad hit. Off course at a range at about 10 km it is easy to kill, but if you stay at maximum range you are very difficult to hit. However, if you stay at that range your teammates will hurl loads of abuse at you, but I have learned to ignore that

[BL00DHOUND187]

The majority of my games ended up in tier 9 or 10 games than at my own tier. 

 

This cruiser has a few short falls 'I Find' which are sometimes not statistically there to make up for good points:

-Large size makes you a big target for BB's

-Guns feel pitiful if you used at max range

-Scare factor can make enemies prioritise you.

 

At the end of the day its a completely situational ship as are most of the ships in this game. Honestly though i would not go as far as to say that its OP.

 

 

[Panocek]

General_Alexus, on 03 February 2017 - 07:33 PM, said:

Well i dont own it, but therefore i am not Biased, that is a good Thing:

 

From your Definition all German BBs are OP ( and even more than a Kutuzov could ever be ), because they have no ( important ) HARD Counter:

 

DDs dont Counter them because of Hydro.

BBs dont Counter them because they cant be citadelled

CVs dont Counter BBs at all because of broken AA

Well CAs/CLs get deleted anyway.

 

so much fun playing against 5 T9/T10 German BBs and you Team has None of them while they laugth at you.

 

Well for the Kutuzow: it has a Counter: CAs with good Stealth and Radar, all Torpedo armed Ships, all BBs in the time between Smoke, so i Count 3 Hardcounters.

 

You're use of my definition on German BBs is wrong, and here's why:

* DDs are still the best hard counter to them - they're big and clumsy and vulnerable to torpedo attacks or just being set on fire over and over again.

Also, them being BBs and being the ones sitting on the front lines taking the damage sets them apart from the Kutuzov who's supposed to be sitting in the back.

 

* BBs are also counters to them - while they're hard to citadel, they're not hard to damage!

In my NC I expect to do anywhere between 15k to 25k damage on a broadside German BB.

 

About the counters you mentioned:

CAs with good Stealth and Radar - which ones are those?

The only ships that fit these criteria are the British cruisers, and they get demolished when facing other cruisers head on since they're basically big destroyers with citadels.

 

All torpedo armed ships - good luck hitting a Kutuzov camping 15km in the back with a torpedo...

All BBs - I addressed that point, there is little to no chance you'll hit the Kutuzov if he's using his range, all the while he's setting you on fire again and again.... and that's not counting the fact that he can pop his smoke at any moment, while still spamming long range HE at you.

 

 

 

Then you realize hitting things past 17km, let alone at 19km+ isn't easy peasy, even with Russian 152mm railguns.

 

Cruiser with concealment and radar - Chapayev. If you actually bother with setting up concealment, you can get it down to 10km, have 11.7km radar range and more importantly, that ship can stealth fire past 14.7km, putting "oh so OP Kutuzov" to shame.

 

Also even more kek - if you find combination of high rof and range OP by default, why you aren't butthurt about Budyonny? That ships pack exactly the same soviet bias dispensers TWO tiers lower and with spotter plane up, she outranges Kutuzov! How about that

 

And show me how exactly German BBs are clumsy. So far only tier 10 stands out as "worse", all ships below are just as nimble as other BB, if not more so. Yet I don't see Yamatos and Iowas running with hydroacoustics around.