Getting rid of stealth firing and fixing the German DDs

[tmGrunty]

 

Disclaimer

Wargaming has stated multiple times that they will remove stealth fire alltogether. This change will come in the near future. So the question is just if and what we get in compensation for it.

 

Initial statement

I know this might be an unpopular opinion and highliy controversial but as a DD main myself I actually wouldn't be mad if the whole stealth firing mechanic as it right now goes away. It causes a lot of salt for battleships in general, makes the Zao overpowered as hell and in atempt to get rid of it Wargaming shafted the German the DDs for no reason.

 

So how does stealth fire work right now?

Every ships gets it gun caliber in mm multiplied by 30 and that value (in meters) is added to the concealment after firing the main guns. In addition the Russian destroyers get added an extra 2km penalty to it because their guns are to good. So depending on your base concealment this leaves a window in which you can fire your guns without being detected by the target.

Let's take the Fletcher for example. Its maximum concealment is 5.8km and its gun range without modifiers is 12.9km. So when it fires the penalty added is 127 * 30 = 3810m. The concealment therefore is 9.6km leaving her with a nice 3.3km buffer where it can shoot the guns. On the German DDs the penalty is complete artificial and the only destroyer being able to stealth fire is the Z-52 and its window is very small.

Wargaming has stated multiple times they don't like stealth fire and the German DD line is possibly a way to test waters on how to do it. And regarding to the nbumber of players who like and play those ships it is not a good way to do it.

 

Now how can you fix that?

First and foremost with a radical chance of the mechanics.

No more stealth fire whatsoever. You detection after firing your guns now will always be the same as your maximum gun range. This seem radical and will of course nerf all excisting IJN and USN destroyers as they relied on their ability to stealth fire. To compensate for that I suggest to change another mechanic.

 

Changing the bloom time

Right now the time the firing penalty is applied is a fixed value of 20sec if you were detected when shooting. I suggest that the gun caliber doesn't affect the detection range after firing but instead it affects the bloom time. The bigger the caliber, the longer you should be detected after firing the guns. I propose the following formula:

Bloom Time (in seconds) = gun caliber (in meters) * 50

 

How does that affect ships?

Lets take a look at the Fletcher again. Now it would always be detected 12.9km away whhen firing (or more if you use range upgrades). But instead of being detected for 20 seconds that bloom would only last 0.127 * 50 = 6.35 seconds.

A big German battleships with 420mm guns would receive the penalty for 0.42 * 50 = 21 seconds.

I think those drastically shortened times on lower caliber ships would balance out the bigger detections as it is much easier to get undetected after shooting the guns. It might especially help the IJN and German destroyers to utilize their guns more often and be opportunistic with their shots.

 

Balancing

Of course this would required a lot of testing there could be tweaking around the factor for different classes for balancing reasons, but overall I think this would be a good change to the game. In certain cases there might even be a special factor for a special ship although I don't think this would be a great idea.

 

Thoughts?

 

edit: As mainy people demanded sources. This is the most recent source it could find and from the WorldofWarships Discord channel and it is the account of Sub_Octavian: http://imgur.com/a/C3r3w

 

[red_eye1980]

You have a point about stealth firing.

 

It is kinda unfair, but certain ships such as some cas and dds have used it so far to survive. Why do you think that German DDs are not that popular for a brand new line? Your suggestion is a kind of a solution, however ships will be popping in and out of detection for very short periods, maybe not enough to aim and shoot at them which can be annoying. There is that nuisance. Unfortunately I haven't got anything to counter propose.

[tmGrunty]

Well, popping in and out giving the players at least a chance to shoot at them is still better than not seeing them at all, right?

The main reason nobody want to play the German DDs is because they are kind of mediocre until high tiers. And the reson for that is the huge penalty after firing the guns combined with the large amount of damage they take when hit. Outside of smoke those destroyers will be detected every single they shoot and that just limits the usage of guns. On top of that the smoke duration is the shortest of all destroyers.

[EmilyFara]

I had a bit of a different idea. In stead of decreasing Bloom time, they could also change the shape of the boom in such a way that the ship you're shooting at will always be able to see the source (if unobstructed by island, smoke, etc)

But ships you aren't shooting at won't see a difference from the current system.

[piritskenyer]

Marked for later reading.

[xxNihilanxx]

See this is what I don't understand about these ideas. It is considered, by many, to be "unfair" that some Destroyers and Cruisers can fire from stealth, thus being immune to return fire but yet the fact that some ships can fire at other ships from beyond the range that the target ship is capable of responding is fine. It's totally wrong for a Fletcher, for example, to shoot at a Yamato whilst remaining unseen but totally fine for a Fuso to shoot at a New Mexico or an Aoba at ranges that far exceed the range for any possible return fire. Why is this?

 

If it is fairness that you are after then giving ALL ships the same firing range is as a valid a suggestion as removing stealth firing, wouldn't you agree?

[EsaTuunanen]

It might especially help the IJN and German destroyers to utilize their guns more often and be opportunistic with their shots.

It would be the opposite for IJN DDs.

Unless being able to start fire with that one salvo and then "cloak" and run away they would be just "lighthouse" inviting gunboats to come to sink them.

Also even without chasing gunboats range of IJN DD guns is such that skilled enemies would easily be able to preaim guns close enough and hit them when they fire and become visible next time.

(unless enemy is in Atlanta with its 127mm/38 catapults)

[Spellfire40]

Well, popping in and out giving the players at least a chance to shoot at them is still better than not seeing them at all, right?

The main reason nobody want to play the German DDs is because they are kind of mediocre until high tiers. And the reson for that is the huge penalty after firing the guns combined with the large amount of damage they take when hit. Outside of smoke those destroyers will be detected every single they shoot and that just limits the usage of guns. On top of that the smoke duration is the shortest of all destroyers.

 

and why do you need a chance?  Stealthfire is a non isue If you have an unspotted DD in front. As long as most stealthfire ships do need 4 plus minutes what for example a BB gives back in 30 sek i dont see a reason for nerfs. Look at RU high end DDs the work without because you need to aim so far ahead that even slightly course changes make you miss because of their speed.

 

german DD s dont work because the lack the speed and they are so broud that even BBs cause pens instead of overpens in a lot of cases. Stealthfire is something to give ships with low survivability to cause somewhat relyable damage under specific circumstances.  It dont really needs to be fixed because it gives value to scouting.

[DragonstrikerOrigin]

Well to be honest. Personnaly i think Steath firing is fine like it is ingame.

 

First of all it is more realistic since most of the ocean is curved and normaly you would not see where the shells are coming from rather you would only see from which direction the actually coming from. So unless the Culprit is not spotted you can not determine where he would be.

 

Another possibility to solve this is maybe make your plane that is only cruising around you to fly in approximitly the direction where the shells come from. So if he would sail in to the ships detection range he would be lit up.

 

Because lats say for example the ibuki. with all her perks etc.... she can stealth fire from 16km and up to 19 km. Sooo anything between the 16km mark can see you and you are immediatly spotted.

 

Sooo i dont see a big issue with STEALTH firing since it only affect those people who think the can sail around complettly alone without cover.

[_x_Acheron_x_]

stealth firing from smoke is the biggest problem.

 

you cant see in, but I can see out to the point where I can hit things 10km away. lol ok bro.

[AkosJaccik]

I don't think that my ontopic opinion would be either "educated" or important (guess why), but I still have something in my mind I just can't help with:

This is again an issue that is only an issue because of the lack(?) of CVs. The "problems" with stealth firing, long range torpedoes, Radio Location, stealth in general etc. all probably trace back more or less to the role of aerial reconnaissance in the "original" meta, now which is largely absent.

And when one gameplay-element for some reasons don't work well anymore in such a multi-armed scale, something will get an edge. Nerfs an buffs will try to patch that, we all know how it goes, until slowy, slowly more or less all classes do the same, but with different HP and ROF. Identical ships will battle, instead of identical fleets.

 

Then again, considering that WoWs is a free to play game, it is probably an inevitable way.

 

Edit: By the way - "stealth firing from smoke". If I do remember correctly, that wasn't always the case that ships with working AA systems remained undetected in smoke, right? Or I am mistaken and you never needed to turn off AA in smoke?

[AnotherDuck]

stealth firing from smoke is the biggest problem.

 

you cant see in, but I can see out to the point where I can hit things 10km away. lol ok bro.

 

This is just misunderstanding how spotting works. Firing from smoke is exactly the same way as a cruiser firing on a destroyer who's spotted by an allied destroyer, but cruiser doesn't actually see the destroyer by herself. It's exactly the same mechanic. So if we remove firing from smoke, you should only ever be able to see ships you spot yourself.

[EsaTuunanen]

This is just misunderstanding how spotting works. Firing from smoke is exactly the same way as a cruiser firing on a destroyer who's spotted by an allied destroyer, but cruiser doesn't actually see the destroyer by herself. It's exactly the same mechanic. So if we remove firing from smoke, you should only ever be able to see ships you spot yourself.

Just put it this way:

Firing at ships spotted by others is what BBs do lots of time.

That would have to go with smoke firing.

[VeteranGamer84]

TL : DR

I love my German BBs, Don't touch please!

[Juanx]

stealth firing from smoke is the biggest problem.

 

you cant see in, but I can see out to the point where I can hit things 10km away. lol ok bro.

 

 

Odd that given your experience you still think spotting works like that but meh, par for the course...

Hint: other ships spot for those IN smoke.

[tmGrunty]

TL : DR

I love my German BBs, Don't touch please!

 

I don't even play BBs. I exclusivly play DDs.

[TheCoolBird]

I don't see why they would remove stealth firing. Some cruisers and destroyers use it to survive. It's just taking away another game mechanic. I use stealth firing in my Blys to survive and do damage, otherwise I take shells too easily and don't do much for my team. Possibly in a cruiser once I get the captain skills.

It's not as if ships remain invisible, as once a enemy ship gets into range you become detected. You can see where the shells are coming from also, it's not as if they don't exist. 

 

Just my opinion. If they do actually go and remove it, then I'm not sure what would work to then fix it. 

[Dominico]

Indont see why people have an issue with this. Its going to be how every ship works in the future. As ive said before stealth firing isnt fun, realistic or necessary.

 

German destroyers are also not "broken"

 

The window for being spotted when you fire smaller guns is shorter and as a german destroyer you can shoot and scoot. Anyone close enough for you to be firing those tiny guns at would see you. But you can fire and then stop firing and you know what ahpoens. You disapear!

 

I use this a lot to my advantqge in Belfast. You can fire at an enemy and then when you see his turrets turning or you see the marker that you are twrgeted stop firing. Your view range drops and you go out of sight.

 

This is how it should be and takes skill of using landscape and distance to remain unspotted by closer targets etf. Its the same with german desteoyers but easier.

 

Maybe just say that german destroyers are not for everyone. Its more fun when there are some ships which wre high skill or whwtever and some are easy mode like german battlehships. That way people can play in various ways. With varying levels of challenge.

[Spellfire40]

Indont see why people have an issue with this. Its going to be how every ship works in the future. As ive said before stealth firing isnt fun, realistic or necessary.

 

German destroyers are also not "broken"

 

The window for being spotted when you fire smaller guns is shorter and as a german destroyer you can shoot and scoot. Anyone close enough for you to be firing those tiny guns at would see you. But you can fire and then stop firing and you know what ahpoens. You disapear!

 

I use this a lot to my advantqge in Belfast. You can fire at an enemy and then when you see his turrets turning or you see the marker that you are twrgeted stop firing. Your view range drops and you go out of sight.

 

This is how it should be and takes skill of using landscape and distance to remain unspotted by closer targets etf. Its the same with german desteoyers but easier.

 

Maybe just say that german destroyers are not for everyone. Its more fun when there are some ships which wre high skill or whwtever and some are easy mode like german battlehships. That way people can play in various ways. With varying levels of challenge.

 

​well yes the Dropout is a Option but you have to rebalance damage around it. Germans ARE broken as gun DDs because they cont consistantly damage. Their HE is weak as a national Trait. Their AP is situational. They are high visible Torpedoboats that use their guns as a last resort because their wide hulls eats pens from AP including BB caliber ALOT. they are bad at contetsing caps . Theor advantage of hydro is totally negated because at the millisecond they fire they get spoted from the next cap halfway across the map because of the horid penalty. Also if you wanted to get rid of stealthfire as a whole you have to majorly buff low caliber damage for ships that acumulate by keeking their guns firing. An aki that need 450 plus hits to get over 100 k ? do that while spoted all the time while firing your sunk before you get over 20k

[OldschoolGaming_YouTube]

You have a point about stealth firing.

 

It is kinda unfair, but certain ships such as some cas and dds have used it so far to survive. Why do you think that German DDs are not that popular for a brand new line? Your suggestion is a kind of a solution, however ships will be popping in and out of detection for very short periods, maybe not enough to aim and shoot at them which can be annoying. There is that nuisance. Unfortunately I haven't got anything to counter propose.

 

I dont really get this argument? How is this unfair? It is one of their few streangth! If this is unfair, then why isnt it unfair that many BBs can kill ships without even shooting at them? (Bismarck, Yamato and all the other secondary BBs), How is it not unfair that BBs get Heals? How is it not unfair that some ships have radar, hydra, torps, planes, smokes and everything else? Is it fair that a BB can delete any other ship in one salvo because RNG?

 

If this game should be totally fair for all ships and all players then we would have 1 ship to chose from and no extra stuff, no modules, no captainskills, no everything.  That would actually be fair! But would it be fun?

 

All ships have big strength and weaknesses. If you are tired of getting HE spammed by a Stealthfirering CA or DD, then change you Freakin gameplay, you are obviously playing wrong. All things in this game has a counter, then use that counter!

If you are eating alot of torps in a BB, then maybe not sail in straight line? Maybe not go off alone on a Yolorun without anyone scouting for you?

 

This is a easy fix! Get better at the game! But instead everyone wants to nerf the ships and take all the skill out of the game and hand out handikapp crutches to everyone! 

[Unintentional_submarine]

I had a bit of a different idea. In stead of decreasing Bloom time, they could also change the shape of the boom in such a way that the ship you're shooting at will always be able to see the source (if unobstructed by island, smoke, etc)

But ships you aren't shooting at won't see a difference from the current system.

 

That has been my thought about it too.

 

The main problem with stealth firing isn't the damage done, as it is generally not that much, given if someone is in a stealthfire scenario, something has gone terribly wrong on the other side, and it still takes a long time to do meaningful damage. No, the main problem is one of perception. He shoots, and I can't do anything about it, I just have to take it for the time being. It's the same problem fires have faced and CVs have faced. People don't like to take damage and being unable to return the favour (even if it is ineffective).

 

If the target in question could see his tormentor, and return fire, the perception would be markedly different. If he misses the tormentor, then it is either RNG or himself he can blame, annoying but at least he could fire at the target, maybe next time he will hit. This gives him hope and a much better feeling about it. All without really changing the actual outcome or damage done back and forth.

 

So, as I see it, it is all about the single target. Change the situation for HIM, and him alone. Naturally the stealth firers would be nerfed like this, as the target could point him out on the map and could possibly hit him too. But stealth firing is not all that common.

The way they are trying to fix the issue atm is like burning the crop fields in order to kill the weeds. The damage done in other scenarios, that aren't stealth fire, is simply too much. An important portion of a DDs ability is to engage other DDs, and then when that engagement is over (the enemy DD is dead or LOS is broken), will no longer be in immediate danger of being blasted by other ships. German DDs can't do that at all. Even IJN DDs are much better at this, making it hilariously comical in cap engagement that German DDs are in fact countered by IJN DDs. Just get him to either smoke up (because it is so short you can wait him out and outspot him afterwards with the friendlies in an even better position to take him out), or fire his guns and you have already won that fight.

[BadGene616]

Bloom time as a function of calibre... ROF often impacted by skills and modules, at low tier especially.

 

Would need incredibly fine balancing or you're going to have ships blinking in and out all the time.

 

Significant load on server and painful for potato computers.

 

I think it may be overcomplicating the mechanic.

[Migulaitor]

How is stealth fire a problem? Last time it happened to me it was a blys shooting my tirpitz after flanking us, he dealt like 10-15k dmg after half the game pew pewing me, while he was stealthe firing he wasnt torping and he wasnt supporting caps. If you support your dds you can not be stealth fired. And if you use a bit of wasd you can make your enemy miss almost all the shells.

[Ruuti_]

 

I would try following simple solution to this stealth firing problem: Shooting at a ship outside the range from which the said ship can be detected incurs an accuracy penalty to the shooter.

 

Consider ships A and B. Let's say A has maximum firing range of 12km and can be detected from distance of 10km (or closer) when shooting. A shoots B from distance of 11km. Under current mechanics B cannot see A. If my idea was implemented, B could see A after she started firing and could shoot back at A, BUT with accuracy penalty since A is further than 10km from B. If the distance between A and B was 10km or less, there would be no penalty.

 

 

[DK63]

I think stealth firing is perfectly acceptable for a DD. I can be 'one shotted' if spotted by a cruiser or battleship, so if stealth firing is removed, what actual advantage would there be in playing a DD? All a DD will be able to do is spot, and torp spam, which everyone bitches about, and we'll end up with battleships driving around the perimeter of the map trying to snipe and cruisers playing 'peek-a-boo'!