Has the "Inertia Fuse for HE Shells" skill made Heavy Cruisers Redundant?

[Procrastes]

I just watched the latest "Mingles with Jingles" video, in which Jingles ruminates a bit about how the new Inertia Fuse for HE Shells skill has made the Atago redundant in competitive battles.

 

Jingles' observation, in short, is that the IFHE skill makes 152 mm HE shells so effective against armour, that all the Atagos have disappeared from competitive battles at tier 8, and been replaced by Mikhail Kutuzovs. The Mikhail Kutuzov has longer range, better AA and far better rate of fire, and while the Atago previously had the edge in armour penetration and damage dealing capability, especially against battleships, this advantage has now been eclipsed by the IFHE skill. The Atago now only brings the heal ability as an extra to the table, and this is not enough - especially considering that the Kutuzov has its own defensive mechanism in the form of a smoke generator.

 

This started me wondering. If Jingles observation is correct, it might mean more than just the death of the Atago (please forgive the dramatic hyberbole, here) - it might mean that heavy cruisers as a ship class have become somewhat redundant. While it's true that the 203 mm HE shell is still the paramount firestarter, the ability to set fires might not be enough to keep it in the game. The swift-firing and fast-flying 152 mm shell is just so much fun to sling around the battlesea, and with added penetration, has it now also become the more efficient damage-dealer?

 

I'll try to add the Jingles video below. The relevant part, here, is about 7 minutes into the clip.

 

What are your thoughts?

 

 

 

[ApesTogetherStronK]

Us poor peasants who don't have Kutuzovs will still use AP in our CA's, rightly timed of course, to wipe away those same Kutuzovs.  

[cracktrackflak]

IMHO, Atago remains much more all-round "battleworthy" than Kutuzov.

 

Kutuzov might have good guns and occasional smoke, but its very fragile and much more prone to sudden deletion than Atago is.

[Origin47]

IFHE should have been a choice between doing hard damage or doing damage by setting fires. As it stands, right now, the fire chance penalty is far too small and can easily be mitigated by getting demo expert.

[AgarwaenME]

IFHE should have been a choice between doing hard damage or doing damage by setting fires. As it stands, right now, the fire chance penalty is far too small and can easily be mitigated by getting demo expert.

 

That would just turn every ship into an RN CL. And spending 3 more captain points on top is a total of 7 skillpoints spent, so the opportunity cost is immense as those skills on top of the required ones basicly means you get nothing else unless you skimp on properly using the MKs other attributes. The ships this skill really works on atm already have a very low chance of fire, so if they don't also get DE then they effectively reduce it to close to 0 (as jingles actually talks about in that video).

 

It's still a bland skill that promotes simplified gameplay (just like RL).

 

WG has just painted themselves into a corner again, they can't nerf the MK, and nerfing the skill will just make it worthless on every other CA/CL too. The only other option is buffing BBs HE protection, but that just means the skill becomes a 4 point forced choice on every CA. Best option would likely be to slightly nerf the skill in both pen and fire reduction penalty (or change it akin to aft/bft, leaving it more effective on smaller calibres than 139mm).

[Capra76]

IFHE should have been a choice between doing hard damage or doing damage by setting fires. As it stands, right now, the fire chance penalty is far too small and can easily be mitigated by getting demo expert.

 

The problem is that the fire penalty is a flat 3% for all ships, which is huge for gunboat DD but much less severe for 152 mm cruisers, perhaps it should be something like a 50% multiplicative reduction instead.

 

I think the reason this skill is in the game is to give Akizuki's 100 mm guns the ability to penetrate 19 mm DD armour and is balanced around that ship, but it seems to be having unintended consequences elsewhere in the game.

 

I suspect the skill will get changed at some point, but can they do that without giving everyone another free skill reset?

[AgarwaenME]

Us poor peasants who don't have Kutuzovs will still use AP in our CA's, rightly timed of course, to wipe away those same Kutuzovs.  

 

His point is about team based games though. In randoms you won't see a wall of BBs in front of those MKs and have perfect overlap of smoke use, while in actually organised play you will see that as default.

[aboomination]

I recently bought the Kutuzov myself, leave it alone - BB didn't want to burn, now they take massive HE dmg and the occasional fire, problem solved 

And no, the Ibuki doesn't feel redundant in random battles.

[deadly_if_swallowed]

 

The problem is that the fire penalty is a flat 3% for all ships, which is huge for gunboat DD but much less severe for 152 mm cruisers, perhaps it should be something like a 50% multiplicative reduction instead.

 

I think the reason this skill is in the game is to give Akizuki's 100 mm guns the ability to penetrate 19 mm DD armour and is balanced around that ship, but it seems to be having unintended consequences elsewhere in the game.

 

I suspect the skill will get changed at some point, but can they do that without giving everyone another free skill reset?

 

This. Increasing the IFHE fire chance penalty to 5% means USN DDs and Atlanta will have no fire chance at all (only 1% with both flags, 3% with flags and DE). Buffing their stock chance from 5% to 7% would cause people no not choose IFHE but DE instead for juicy 10% with flags and DE. Ships like Kutuzov have become insanely stronk and for now we have to deal with it.

 

There may be some slight adjustment at some point, but any major change to the skill without proper skill reset will cause another shitstorm like the Convoy disaster.

[Origin47]

 

That would just turn every ship into an RN CL. And spending 3 more captain points on top is a total of 7 skillpoints spent, so the opportunity cost is immense as those skills on top of the required ones basicly means you get nothing else unless you skimp on properly using the MKs other attributes. The ships this skill really works on atm already have a very low chance of fire, so if they don't also get DE then they effectively reduce it to close to 0 (as jingles actually talks about in that video).

 

It's still a bland skill that promotes simplified gameplay (just like RL).

 

WG has just painted themselves into a corner again, they can't nerf the MK, and nerfing the skill will just make it worthless on every other CA/CL too. The only other option is buffing BBs HE protection, but that just means the skill becomes a 4 point forced choice on every CA. Best option would likely be to slightly nerf the skill in both pen and fire reduction penalty (or change it akin to aft/bft, leaving it more effective on smaller calibres than 139mm).

 

Aside from the akizuki, the skill is way too useful for ships with 152mm guns (mainly cruisers), which already have good rate of fire and good chance of starting fire.

Ships like Omaha, Cleveland, Budyonny, Shchors, Chapayev and especially Kutuzov and Belfast (both of which i consider op), were already known as good fire starters. Now, with IHFE, DE and AR, all these cruisers are not only good fire starters, but good damage dealers, with HE.

Bottom line is (and i know i am repeating myself), if you choose IFHE, you should get a fire only once in full moon.

 

 

Also, on another note, Jingles is saying that they should make Atago interesting again, that it does not bring anything worthwhile to table, when compared to the Kutuzov (and to some extend Chapayev). What he should have said is that normal cruisers like Mogami, Hipper and New Orleans should be adjusted so as to bring something interesting to the table, not Atago, which is a premium ship already being considered borderline op. Yes, i know New Orleans also has radar, but range is preferred over duration.

[EsaTuunanen]

WG has just painted themselves into a corner again, they can't nerf the MK, and nerfing the skill will just make it worthless on every other CA/CL too. The only other option is buffing BBs HE protection, but that just means the skill becomes a 4 point forced choice on every CA.

Except that it doesn't give CAs really any new penetrating abilities.

Basically about all armor/plating 203mm HEs couldn't penetrate before is too thick for this skill to help.

So it just buffs Soviet cruiser line.

 

While on receiving end USN BBs are likely to suffer most:

Outside citadel protection they tend to have all around "softest skin".

While for example German BBs have quite a lots of "medium" thickness armor plating in their hull still capable to resisting IFHE buffed HEs.

Heck, even DD caliber HEs see biggest benefit just against USN BBs like New Mexico and Colorado while even lower tier German BBs stay resistant in midship.

 

I think the reason this skill is in the game is to give Akizuki's 100 mm guns the ability to penetrate 19 mm DD armour and is balanced around that ship, but it seems to be having unintended consequences elsewhere in the game.

Pretty much feels like that.

[The_Great_SCH]

I have watched a few competitive games in the recent tournaments and this is What i've learned so far : 

 

1. Kutuzov has a more defensive role (let's say you create 2 main groups, with 2 Bensons for smokes and torps, and use the Kutuzov with an additional Battleship (mostly NC) to create cross-fire possibility).

2. Atago has decent stealth to do some flanking maneuvers, possible cap a free slot and get back to the fleet without taking almost no damage. (if you recall the famous OMNI game where Flamu did a solo run and turned the game around)

3. The cruiser pick in competitive is mostly depends on the map. Big maps advantage stealthier ships, small maps advantage radar ships.

 

Now i haven't been part of any competitive games myself, but the damage output does not have to be ship-specific, but team specific, you see they always focus fire, and positioning is everything.

 

While the Kutuzov in randoms is strong in the right hands, a good Atago player can counter that any time. 

[AgarwaenME]

Except that it doesn't give CAs really any new penetrating abilities.

Basically about all armor/plating 203mm HEs couldn't penetrate before is too thick for this skill to help.

So it just buffs Soviet cruiser line.

 

That was the point, if they buff BBs armour vs HE, then this skill will become a requirement on any CA to have any way to do damage to BBs.

[AgarwaenME]

 

Aside from the akizuki, the skill is way too useful for ships with 152mm guns (mainly cruisers), which already have good rate of fire and good chance of starting fire.

Ships like Omaha, Cleveland, Budyonny, Shchors, Chapayev and especially Kutuzov and Belfast (both of which i consider op), were already known as good fire starters. Now, with IHFE, DE and AR, all these cruisers are not only good fire starters, but good damage dealers, with HE.

Bottom line is (and i know i am repeating myself), if you choose IFHE, you should get a fire only once in full moon.

 

 

Also, on another note, Jingles is saying that they should make Atago interesting again, that it does not bring anything worthwhile to table, when compared to the Kutuzov (and to some extend Chapayev). What he should have said is that normal cruisers like Mogami, Hipper and New Orleans should be adjusted so as to bring something interesting to the table, not Atago, which is a premium ship already being considered borderline op. Yes, i know New Orleans also has radar, but range is preferred over duration.

 

And again, the cost (atleast 7 skillpoints) will eat heavily into your limited pool of available skillpoints, making those ships chose away AAA, skills, RL, CE etc etc, which in turn makes them less useful in other roles. And the reduction in chance of fire without also spending points on DE is so great as to really make the odds of causing fires really low. And this goes on top of the requirement to fire those shells on superstructure which nowadays shouldn't cause more than max one fire at a time.

 

This issue really is, as I already said, one where specific setups becomes dominant in a purely premade team scenario.

 

//Btw, whatever you claim is OP is pretty irrelevant.

[Earl_of_Northesk]

The problem right from the start was that this is not something that trades something. You do not trade fire damage for pen. You just gain pen, but only on ships which are not CA's.

So basically, you now have (nearly) the HE pen of a CA on your CL, while still setting just as much fires per minute and while having, in most (if not all) cases, a higher DPM as well.

 

It is, sorry to say, just very poor game design.

I get why they didn't want the -6% fire chance for DD's, as it would have made the skill for them totally useless.

But why not keep the -6% for cruisers and make it -3% for DD's?

It's just the same for CE, why not here?

 

 

[aboomination]

You do not trade fire damage for pen. You just gain pen

 

Wrong, obviously. Especially since BB survivability has been buffed noticeably with fire prevention.

[Earl_of_Northesk]

 

And again, the cost (atleast 7 skillpoints) will eat heavily into your limited pool of available skillpoints, making those ships chose away AAA, skills, RL, CE etc etc, which in turn makes them less useful in other roles. And the reduction in chance of fire without also spending points on DE is so great as to really make the odds of causing fires really low. And this goes on top of the requirement to fire those shells on superstructure which nowadays shouldn't cause more than max one fire at a time.

 

This issue really is, as I already said, one where specific setups becomes dominant in a purely premade team scenario.

 

//Btw, whatever you claim is OP is pretty irrelevant.

 

Nobody takes survivability expert on anything really. Not worth it except maybe something VERY large like Kurfürst. So there's that.

 

So, what do I lose on Chapayev when I take HEAP? Nothing, really, if my commander is high enough.

I want a 1 and a 2 point skill. For the third row, DE and SI. Still 10 points left. What do I do with those? Even if I only have 8.

Which 4 point skill is more useful than HEAP? None.

You are no frontline ship, so no need for RDF. You will need CE but you can easily get that. Your AA isn't all that impressive anyway, so why waste 4 points on something wich might be useful once in 20 games when you can take a 4 point skill which is usefull in EVERY game you will play?

It is a must have on every CL and insanely strong. If you think otherwise, you are mistaken.

[Earl_of_Northesk]

 

Wrong, obviously. Especially since BB survivability has been buffed noticeably with fire prevention.

 

-3% is laughable. I still have a 18% fire chance on my Chapayev. With the RoF Chapayev has, if you do the match, you will realise there is zero difference in your gameplay.

And people taking fire preventon aren't really smart and will probably die anyway.

[mtm78]

And people taking fire preventon aren't really smart and will probably die anyway.

 

Didn't Flamu take it on his CurrySausage

 

Overall I think IFHE is great, BB's complained about HE + fires being broken, now we get lower fire chance ( no matter how you twist it, it IS a lower fire chance... even if it is just 1%, and that reduction in potential fire damage is BY FAR compensated by the higher HE damage you deal. 

 

Maybe the BB captains will now ask for the fire chance to be restored and IFHE to be changed. Without IFHE Akizuki has no way to deal with angled DD's, I don't want to changed. But instead of having flat effects it could be a scaled effect. 

[Kuningas_Arthur]

Thing is, if a ship is basically useless in planned, coordinated and highly controlled competitive play doesn't mean it's useless in randoms. Key word here being coordinated, competitive play values niche performers above all, every ship selection fills a specific role that needs filling within the team with a ship that suits that specific role the best, and so ships that might be versatile and all-round decent don't get picked because competitive play doesn't require those jack-of-all-trades performers.

 

Randoms are never properly coordinated and teams don't work together in the most efficient way possible. It's the same in tanks, Russian mediums or the E5 for example are practically never used in WGL battles but on random battles they're some of the strongest and most versatile tanks there are. 

[AgarwaenME]

 

Nobody takes survivability expert on anything really. Not worth it except maybe something VERY large like Kurfürst. So there's that.

 

So, what do I lose on Chapayev when I take HEAP? Nothing, really, if my commander is high enough.

I want a 1 and a 2 point skill. For the third row, DE and SI. Still 10 points left. What do I do with those? Even if I only have 8.

Which 4 point skill is more useful than HEAP? None.

You are no frontline ship, so no need for RDF. You will need CE but you can easily get that. Your AA isn't all that impressive anyway, so why waste 4 points on something wich might be useful once in 20 games when you can take a 4 point skill which is usefull in EVERY game you will play?

It is a must have on every CL and insanely strong. If you think otherwise, you are mistaken.

 

When did I say anything about survivability expert? Nevermind how picking SE on something very large is the silliest thing you do...

 

And what skill is more useful than IFHE? How about CE? And in case of the ship in particular here, AFT as a minimum to keep it's AAA useful (bft becomes extremely hard to pick up). You quickly run out of points even on a 19 point captain doing this. So the opportunity costs are there still, and if you want to take that ship for random battles where you can't rely on a team being your cover forever, then this extremely one-note build is going to be even less useful.

[Earl_of_Northesk]

 

Didn't Flamu take it on his CurrySausage

 

Overall I think IFHE is great, BB's complained about HE + fires being broken, now we get lower fire chance ( no matter how you twist it, it IS a lower fire chance... even if it is just 1%, and that reduction in potential fire damage is BY FAR compensated by the higher HE damage you deal. 

 

Maybe the BB captains will now ask for the fire chance to be restored and IFHE to be changed. Without IFHE Akizuki has no way to deal with angled DD's, I don't want to changed. But instead of having flat effects it could be a scaled effect. 

 

Akizuki doesn't care about fire chance and as I said, I'm perfectly fine with having the -3% on DD's. The fire chance nerf just needs to be higher for cruisers.

I'm not rooting for scrapping it, I'm rooting for making it an actual choice instead of just a straight up buff which hurts the role of CA's.

 

I also said it is worthwile on Kurfürst, but really on Kurfürst only due to it's gigantic size.

If we need to talk about Flamu here, he also says he only uses it on that single ship ;)

[Earl_of_Northesk]

 

When did I say anything about survivability expert? Nevermind how picking SE on something very large is the silliest thing you do...

 

And what skill is more useful than IFHE? How about CE? And in case of the ship in particular here, AFT as a minimum to keep it's AAA useful (bft becomes extremely hard to pick up). You quickly run out of points even on a 19 point captain doing this. So the opportunity costs are there still, and if you want to take that ship for random battles where you can't rely on a team being your cover forever, then this extremely one-note build is going to be even less useful.

 

Meant FP. Still not up to the new skill names in a few cases.

And FP is useless.

 

And you just take CE and IFHE.

It's the only viable choice on that ship.

How often do you really use our AA?

You will use IFHE every single game.

Not worth going for a buff for your crappy AA then.

[AgarwaenME]

 

-3% is laughable. I still have a 18% fire chance on my Chapayev. With the RoF Chapayev has, if you do the match, you will realise there is zero difference in your gameplay.

And people taking fire preventon aren't really smart and will probably die anyway.

 

Really? How did you manage to buff 12% base fire chance to 21%? Did I forget some memo where DE added 8%?

 

In the actual game you're actually looking at 12% with DE and double signals, which gives you 5% or so effective fire chance against a T8 BB. Ie, 5 fires per 100 hits, which still isn't bad but you can spend still spend minutes failing to get a single fire.

[_FTD_]

 

Nobody takes survivability expert on anything really.

Got it on my Zao.