Return of the Carrier

[Raziel_Walker]

I don't feel DD's need an AA buff, not even the minekaze (sister) ships with their pathetic AA.

When I am in a DD I don't have much issues evading torps and bombs drops.

And when I am in a CV I attack DD's and still have plenty of sucess.

Seems pretty balanced to me. 

 

Yes, if your smoke is on cooldown, you are within shooting range of hostile ships and a plane is hovering right over you it spells a problem, but showing broadside in a cruiser to an unspotted BB spells disaster as well.

[Capra76]

So I talk about levelling up a DDs AA to a level of being able to shoot a plane down and he quotes no because there are already too many ships that beat the crap out of planes already.

 

And how is bringing the Fujin AA up to that of the Minekaze monstrous.

 

Reality check, results from training room v 1 x Hosho and 1 x Langley:

 

• Benson (C hull), 8 planes shot down from 4 squadrons of TB/DB (20 planes), approximately 50% shot down after weapons released;
• Fletcher (B hull) 16 planes shot down, again probably about 50% shot down after weapon release;

 

so that's the top hull on the strongest AA destroyers 4 or 5 tiers above against bots in stock T4 CV still struggling to shoot down significant numbers of planes.

 

Now admittedly those ships can mount the defensive AA consumable and with that will shred T4 squadrons, but the USN DD are the only ones that can mount it so even a T10 Shimakaze will likely struggle against them.

 

Destroyer AA defense is located either side of the S key.

 

 

Edit:  bit of fun, my Hosho (fully upgraded) + bot Langley v 2 x Shimakaze.

 

Autodrop, one squadron at a time, probably 5 or 6 drops in total, I lost 5 aircraft before I sank both ships, the Langley lost 7

[Mayv]

so that's the top hull on the strongest AA destroyers 4 or 5 tiers above against bots in stock T4 CV still struggling to shoot down significant numbers of planes.

 

 

 

You seem to be forgetting about Akizuki.

[Capra76]

 

You seem to be forgetting about Akizuki.

 

Wow, yes that's a lot of AA for a DD.

[Mayv]

 

Wow, yes that's a lot of AA for a DD.

 

Yes, it is. Even better when AA specced. 200+ AA DPS at 7.2km. I quite like seeing CVs on the enemy team when playing it.

 

 

^Those are mostly Essex planes btw.

[creamgravy]

My Sims has 306 DPS at 7.2km. 

 

[Mayv]

My Sims has 306 DPS at 7.2km. 

 

How?

Unless you are including DF in that.

 

[creamgravy]

Yep. That's with defensive fire, manual AA, BFT and flag. You can cycle it very quickly with Jack of all Trades + November Foxtrot, especially as your running that for US smoke anyway.

 

Sims has amazing AA for tier 7.

I wonder if some 'team battle' Benson's run manual AA with BFT? Mind you, they don't have to face those damn T9+ Saipan planes. 

[allufewig]

Not staying with your buddies. If a CV catches you alone, you deserve to be punished. If you absolutely need to contest caps alone ask your own CV for air cover and smoke up as soon as you see planes closing in (be sure to spread the smoke a little though), at any other time stick close to your team. There's little reason to be off alone in a DD when you're not doing the former.

 

 

 

Now even unicums advise the sneakiest and most cap-worthy ships to team up with the passive mainforce. Great.

 

A constant need to seek allied ships for simple survival is absolutely contraproductive for a wide variety of playstiles that involves other things than mindlessly following an AA ship like a dog. I consider the enourmous strike-capability of CVs versus single targets (or even groups of some ships) to be a bad game-element that is killing tactical diversity rather than offering an incentive for "teamplay" aside from blobbing up.

 

Edit: WG will probably never be able to succesfully cross their RTS minigame with the shooter that the rest is playing. Carriers are too different. Making them fun, viable for everyone, balanced and not an absolute pain in the [edited]for the lone guy with map awareness that tries to safe a cap will be impossible.

[Affeks]

So the answer to CV players one shotting or perma spotting DDs is to play defensive around your teammates? Is this another mechanic that promotes playing non-aggresive instead of flanking or the like? I have no problem surviving as a DD, but whenever I match up against a carrier I know its going to be a boring as hell game hanging around CAs or BBs that stay 10+ km away from any caps or epicenters. Personally I wouldn't directly nerf CVs, but instead buff DD spotting from air or just remove CV planes ability to spot torps. Makes little to no sense.

[El2aZeR]

Now even unicums advise the sneakiest and most cap-worthy ships to team up with the passive mainforce. Great.

 

Not just unicums, WG itself does it.

You do not need to hide behind anything. You can still maintain a forward position, have great impact on the battle and retreat in time if planes come gunning for you. It also enables you to actually support pushes with valuable scouting info (unlike when you're off on your own because no one needs that camping BB 20km away spotted) and smokes. And I'm saying this as a DD player, my CV self would be more than happy if you continue to expose yourselves as easy targets.

I'm actually not sure what people dislike about this in the first place. Even in a game without CVs do I see DDs breaking off, too often going out on their own and either easily get picked off by opposing DDs or generally being absolutely useless by getting greedy and chasing some camping BB off to the edge of the map. Quite frankly that [edited] me off far more than any CV ever could.

 

I have no problem surviving as a DD, but whenever I match up against a carrier I know its going to be a boring as hell game hanging around CAs or BBs that stay 10+ km away from any caps or epicenters.

 

Funny, doesn't that happen without any CV presence anyway?

It's not something CVs cause or even amplify (since most players tend to completely disregard a CV presence anyway), it's human error and should be treated as such.

[Sadeburgh]

When i play dd, i welcome cv:s. Ofc they are annoying but they are counter of dd:s. CV:s also forces people play more as team. Most cases what annoys me most is that CV:s pulls their plains away right away when they torped or bombed and then noone is spotting enemy dd:s. IF they would learn keep spotting that i would love it as dd player as well.

 

DD as CV:s one of main task is spot for team, so love when there is more spotters as cv:s in the game.

[inkedsoulz]

 

I don't stray too far, but I guess you've been lucky as to never be spotted by enemy planes and lit up. That would explain the win rate.

 

I haven't mentioned your CV stats, so have no idea what your trying to indicate. I was quoting your signature, as far as I was aware that accounted for all the ships you play. Am I wrong, or is your signature specific to your CV play?

 

Its not that, its called having good judgement of what to do, and what not.

 

 

 

Really! You respond directly to me and my post and then 'sigh' and ask me if I take everything personal?  Is this a tree falls in a wood but does it make a sound if no one is there to hear it question.

 

 

If you mean is my heart close to breaking then no, fear not; I haven't even felt the need to curse or go cry into a pillow. My problem was with you jumping all over what I thought was a reasonable ask. More than a 2 AA rating. We can all bring up bad scenarios about DDs being out on their own and I am happy to admit that I have taken some risks in the past and paid for it (rightly so). And of course my CV player might 'misplay', in fact I'd prefer to just put it down to the enemy CV player being better than mine misplaying (as I do not play CVs). These are things I haven't even discussed or argued against. I understand you talk about them to bring a level headed view to the conversation, but as I haven't disagreed or would disagree with these 'sane' comments then I fail to see why you have brought them up?

 

 

So my DD rating of 2 AA is a rich guy posing as a beggar. Ok fair enough. I will not ask for better than the 2 AA I have.

 

 

 

Should BB's ask for having torps/more torps?

 

 

[Redcap375]

When i play dd, i welcome cv:s. Ofc they are annoying but they are counter of dd:s. CV:s also forces people play more as team. Most cases what annoys me most is that CV:s pulls their plains away right away when they torped or bombed and then noone is spotting enemy dd:s. IF they would learn keep spotting that i would love it as dd player as well.

 

DD as CV:s one of main task is spot for team, so love when there is more spotters as cv:s in the game.

 

IMHO they shouldn't be the counter to DDs! Come on chaps, dive bombers trying to sink a DD?? The skill of the pilots needed to try to hit a DD?

 

But its the way WG rolls, messed up isn't it 

 

I'm afraid that all they will do is increase DD aa even more, on top of extra 10% BFT they already have. Great for dds of course but a really sad day for CVs. 

 

I would be happy if they lowered BB aa and increased DD aa, but traditionally BBs did have more aa placement's (in general). Now for an extra points they can have 2 planes in the air. 

 

I think you can guess how hard it is to avoid 4-5 plane fighters in the air.

 

[SaxonHoliday]

Honestly, I don't feel DDs need more AA, and I am saying this as a DD main. A destroyer's defense against carrier attacks is the WASD hack, and most of the time (unless you're playing, say, Tashkent, or are up against a Taihou with their triple torpedo criss-cross) it works fairly well. Sure, it would be nice to be able to shred planes like an Atlanta in my Shimakaze, but that would not exactly be healthy for the game as a whole.

 

Dedicated anti-air destroyers such as Akizuki excepted (speaking of which; why the [edited]does she not have Defensive Fire?!), a destroyer's strongest defense against carriers (like against any other ship) should be stealth and misdirection, not AA. Again, this excepts the high-tier Russian destroyers such as Tashkent, but they really function more like small cruisers anyway and as such should be sticking with the fleet and are covered by the AA carpet. But if you're in something like a Fletcher or a Shimakaze, you might want to detach from the main force to try to put a few torps in someone's broadside. In that case, there are really only two ways for a carrier to spot you: 1) you did something to alert the enemy team to your location or 2) you just got unlucky and the enemy CV sent their planes flying over you on the way to try to sneak attack your carrier or something. #1 can be dealt with by making sure the enemy team does not know where you are (and when they do and you see planes coming your way, get back under the AA carpet if you can, or call for help from your own carrier). #2 is just bad luck, like shell dispersion or magazine detonations and there isn't really anything you can do about that.

 

And when you do get spotted by yourself and a squadron of bombers has you in their sights, well, sucks to be you. Better make sure you're good at the WASD hack. Remember: turn your bow to torpedo bombers, and your broadside to dive bombers.

[Sadeburgh]

 

IMHO they shouldn't be the counter to DDs! Come on chaps, dive bombers trying to sink a DD?? The skill of the pilots needed to try to hit a DD?

 

But its the way WG rolls, messed up isn't it 

 

 

 

 

Well, cv:s are other "spotter" class of the game, who can light up "whole" map if they want to. When i play dd, dont mind if enemy cv spots me, its job todo that. Not saying that cv:s primary job is or should be kill dd:s, but current state of game i understand why they do it. I dont want to that they give dd:s (more) defensive fire skills, nor more stealth. Dd:s are fine. Just that CV:s 1 job is spot the dd:s and if they do it, i welcome it. Even if its me who gets spotted. Main issue eint that this class is crap and needs buff nor that class needs nerf cos it prevents me todo something, people need to learn support eachothers more. Like when there is lots of dd:s or cv, then cruisers needs to support dd:s if its cap-game. Also it means that sniper bb:s need to come with the fleet.