Tirpitz secondary artillery up to par?

[superdashi]

Ahoy there, skippers.

 

as i have allready stressed this matter in the bloody german forum, i basically allready know the outcome of this. But still, i would like to have your opinions as well. Maybe the english speaking community will deliver some arguments to support their opinions. Just stating that something will be OP, or something will not be accepted by WG, is just an opinion / forecast. It's pretty useless without the proper arguments consolidating the assumption, right?

BBT

 

I feel that the range of Tirpitz secondary artillery (4,5km) is not what it should be, and i will tell you why:

 

1) The german BB branch is designed to be close range brawlers. In fact, the other tier 8 BB (Amagi, North Carolina) have 5 km range. One will argue now "but but ... the Tirpitz has those mighty torpedoes!".

2) right, Tirpitz has torpedoes. But so do Scharnhorst and Gneisenau. 2 tier 7 german BB, with 5 km range on their secondaries and 6km torps as well. I doubt anyone will say they are OP

3) Even the tier 6 german Bayern already has 5km range.

4) Regarding the possibility to train your german BB captain on the tirpitz, where you will most probably have or train some skills for secondary artillery for those brawlers, 4,5 km on the training ship is ... well ... just meh.

5) From a historical view, it is also quite puzzling her sistership Bismarck comes with astonishing 7km on the same armarment (and better AA, hydroacustic search as well).

 

This beeing said, i find the comparison between torpedoes and secondary battery questionable. Torps on a BB are pretty much only effective vs. other BB. You can sure hit a cruiser or destroyer with those torps, granted. But if CA's or DD's come so close, they will have a reason for this. They have torps as well, and will most definately sink you. Whereas those secondaries can be used against all kinds. It gives you protection against those low health dd who tries a final devastating strike. I have seen friendly Bismarcks next to me. Their 10,5km is just awesome.

My conclusion:

 

Tirpitz sec range should be enhanced to at least those of the other tier 8 BB. It doesn't make any sense to have a close range brawler with worse range on her close range weaponry. 5 to 5.5 km would absolutely be in order in my humbe opinion.

On a side note, i would reduce Bismarcks range as well. Tier 9 and 10 german BB also "only" have those 7 km, tier 7 have 5km. It wouldn't be much, but if Bismarck "only" had 6.5km, the gap between tier 7 and 9 would be closed reasonable imho.

What do you say, Captains?

 

[AwesomeChicken]

 

2) right, Tirpitz has torpedoes. But so do Scharnhorst and Gneisenau. [...] I doubt anyone will say they are OP

 

 

*cough cough cough* 

[Ghostychan]

I completely agree with OP

The Bayern needs her secondary range reduced to the level of other tier VI BBs (The Mutsu is only going to have 4km Range, which is, as a famous US president would say, "sad")

Also the Bismarcks secondary is OP and needs to be nerfed down to 5.5 - 6 at best

Also the Gneisenau and Scharnhorst have to be nerfed to 4.5 as well

 

#makeAllBBsBrawlerAgain

 

superdashi, on 27 January 2017 - 09:13 AM, said:

2) right, Tirpitz has torpedoes. But so do Scharnhorst and Gneisenau. 2 tier 7 german BB, with 5 km range on their secondaries and 6km torps as well. I doubt anyone will say they are OP

 

So you are going to say that these BBs won't dominate the next ranked season? I'm all ears

[Azakeit]

It's fine as it is. Torps ont he Tirpitz is a very good tradeoff for secondary range.

 

Keep in mind that the Tirpitz was the first German BB introduced in the game long ago, the devs at this time probably didn't plan to give the whole German BB regular line good secondary range.

 

But even a Tirpitz full secondary build has is secondary range up to 7km iirc ? that should be enough to, like you say, finish a kamikaze DD or Cruiser from approching you to torp you.

[aboomination]

The Bayern needs her main guns buffed to the level of other tier VI BBs

 

Yes, please 

[beercrazy]

my answer is

 

1) it is a brawler with good armour and torpedo for close in work

2) Scharnhorst has smaller guns more cruiser like and is op as hell and the gneisenau has great guns and torps which make her a op ship at tier 7

3) Bayern is probably better than the fuso which is also op as hell

4) right so now we complain about the ship because you want a ship to be captain skill based with rest of the normal line cough cough british Belfast and normal cruiser line are worse to set up because of HE on Belfast but people don't complain

5) its a game pal just a game no mater how much wg try to make it "historical" it has to be balanced for fun

 

I cant understand why you are complaining when your average damage is over 60k in the Tirpitz

its a premium ship pal that is performing very nicely and I personally cannot see what the problem is with Tirpitz is unless your getting too close to enemy dds and that's a play style problem not a ship problem

 

[aboomination]

Bayern is probably better than the fuso

 

[Blue_Bug]

Ahoy there, skippers.

 

as i have allready stressed this matter in the bloody german forum, i basically allready know the outcome of this. But still, i would like to have your opinions as well. Maybe the english speaking community will deliver some arguments to support their opinions. Just stating that something will be OP, or something will not be accepted by WG, is just an opinion / forecast. It's pretty useless without the proper arguments consolidating the assumption, right?

 

BBT

 

I feel that the range of Tirpitz secondary artillery (4,5km) is not what it should be, and i will tell you why:

 

1) The german BB branch is designed to be close range brawlers. In fact, the other tier 8 BB (Amagi, North Carolina) have 5 km range. One will argue now "but but ... the Tirpitz has those mighty torpedoes!".

2) right, Tirpitz has torpedoes. But so do Scharnhorst and Gneisenau. 2 tier 7 german BB, with 5 km range on their secondaries and 6km torps as well. I doubt anyone will say they are OP

3) Even the tier 6 german Bayern already has 5km range.

4) Regarding the possibility to train your german BB captain on the tirpitz, where you will most probably have or train some skills for secondary artillery for those brawlers, 4,5 km on the training ship is ... well ... just meh.

5) From a historical view, it is also quite puzzling her sistership Bismarck comes with astonishing 7km on the same armarment (and better AA, hydroacustic search as well).

 

This beeing said, i find the comparison between torpedoes and secondary battery questionable. Torps on a BB are pretty much only effective vs. other BB. You can sure hit a cruiser or destroyer with those torps, granted. But if CA's or DD's come so close, they will have a reason for this. They have torps as well, and will most definately sink you. Whereas those secondaries can be used against all kinds. It gives you protection against those low health dd who tries a final devastating strike. I have seen friendly Bismarcks next to me. Their 10,5km is just awesome.

 

My conclusion:

 

Tirpitz sec range should be enhanced to at least those of the other tier 8 BB. It doesn't make any sense to have a close range brawler with worse range on her close range weaponry. 5 to 5.5 km would absolutely be in order in my humbe opinion.

 

On a side note, i would reduce Bismarcks range as well. Tier 9 and 10 german BB also "only" have those 7 km, tier 7 have 5km. It wouldn't be much, but if Bismarck "only" had 6.5km, the gap between tier 7 and 9 would be closed reasonable imho.

 

What do you say, Captains?

 

 

Ships are (or should be) balanced on their statistics. The Tirpitz is doing fine, certainly if you see how many players who don't have a regulair tier 8 BB play the Tirpitz. So if you want the Tirpitz secondairies buffed, it should be nerfed on another area. IMHO the Tirpitz is fine, so there is no reason to go through a painfull process of buffing and nerfing this ship.

[superdashi]

I completely agree with OP

The Bayern needs her secondary range reduced to the level of other tier VI BBs (The Mutsu is only going to have 4km Range, which is, as a famous US president would say, "sad")

Also the Bismarcks secondary is OP and needs to be nerfed down to 5.5 - 6 at best

Also the Gneisenau and Scharnhorst have to be nerfed to 4.5 as well

 

#makeAllBBsBrawlerAgain

 

 

So you are going to say that these BBs won't dominate the next ranked season? I'm all ears

 

Firstly, you would have to agree that the problem i described is valid. Then we could discuss if the Tirp should be buffed to match in, our the others get nerfed. The later is an option imho too, i agree. But i fear that this would be a road to make all BB the same. I understand that many Captains find those close range brawlers OP, cause they really do damage in close range. But if you know that, you want to fight those from longe range and damage them badly in their attempt of approach through their weak deck armor. Everything has it's pro's and con's, don't you agree?

[beercrazy]

 

 

never had any pal :p

[Cadelanne]

If you ask me, secondaries should receive an overhaul significant buff regardless the line and the nation.

 

But as it is now I think tirpitz is good enough. You're underestimating these torpedo tube's value.

[SV_Kompresor]

I agree with the part where you said that tirpitz needs a secondary upgrade(I'd give her 6 km), there's no point in having her over bismarck (save for torpedoes), as for bismarck, secondaries are what defines KM and should not be reduced.....they're not OP by any means, just strong. They can remove hydro if they want to but should secondaries as they are

[Blue_Bug]

 

 

 

 

 

3) Bayern is probably better than the fuso 

 

 

In that case there goes my credibility too.

 

 I'm never been afraid of a Fuso, as they tend to stay at range. I like to come close and personel with my BB's, when I see a Bayern I think a second time about that. When I see a Fuso I think "Yes !, lets go !"

 

Never asked a CV to take out a Fuso, but when a Bayern is around and a CV is active in that area, I will ask the CV to take out the Bayern.

[PotatoTorpedo]

But even a Tirpitz full secondary build has is secondary range up to 7km iirc ? that should be enough to, like you say, finish a kamikaze DD

 

Do you often see a Tier 5 DD in battle with a Tier 8 BB?

[aboomination]

 I'm never been afraid of a Fuso [...] when I see a Fuso I think "Yes !, lets go !"

 

 

Bayern is statistically the worst t6 BB and her guns are among the worst tier for tier in my book.

[Azakeit]

 

Do you often see a Tier 5 DD in battle with a Tier 8 BB?

 

Hum

You know, Kamikaze is not only a name for a particular ship, but also a general name given to ships who wants to suicide ?

[Blue_Bug]

 

 

Bayern is statistically the worst t6 BB and her guns are among the worst tier for tier in my book.

 

Take another book and get close with a Bayern. At close range you can easely  win from any other BB (same tier). 

[SteDorff]

Yes Tirpitz should have better 2nds because it was build after Bismarck and they would have improved the next generation so it would at least have the same.

[aboomination]

Take another book and get close with a Bayern. At close range you can easely  win from any other BB (same tier). 

 

Thx for the advice, maybe I'll get git someday. Bayern's guns can't pen a NC's citadel from 3km or a Warspite's from 1km, I was in these situations. Feels like bad Krupp values because the shells shatter often at mid to long distances.

And she's still statistically the worst t6 BB so don't try to make her look "more OP than the OP as hell Fuso".

[Ghostychan]

 

Firstly, you would have to agree that the problem i described is valid. Then we could discuss if the Tirp should be buffed to match in, our the others get nerfed. The later is an option imho too, i agree. But i fear that this would be a road to make all BB the same. I understand that many Captains find those close range brawlers OP, cause they really do damage in close range. But if you know that, you want to fight those from longe range and damage them badly in their attempt of approach through their weak deck armor. Everything has it's pro's and con's, don't you agree?

 

yes, that's precisely what we need - battleships only engaging at long distance, so the game becomes even more static

previously we had the choice between heavily armored, but slow BBs - or fast but less armored BBs. Close Combat was possible with both, although the heavily armored BBs obviously had an advantage - but they were on par with their secondary range, but still, the Nagato had a fair chance engaging a Colorado.

Now we have German BBs which are fast, armored and armed with good secondaries, so I don't see any reason to increase their close combat capabilities even further - even if we ware only talking about 500m for the Tirpitz.

 

So, no: I don't agree that your point you described is valid

[PotatoTorpedo]

 

Hum

You know, Kamikaze is not only a name for a particular ship, but also a general name given to ships who wants to suicide ?

 

No it's not.

 

(in the Second World War) a Japanese aircraft loaded with explosives and making a deliberate suicidal crash on an enemy target.

[Procrastes]

Short answer: I think the Tirpitz is balanced just fine. Torpedoes on her vs. better secondaries on the Bismarck, makes for balance as well as varied gameplay.

 

As for historical accuracy: In a game like this, that is not a simulation, balance must always be the guiding principle. Otherwise it would swiftly become unplayable.

[Azakeit]

 

No it's not.

 

(in the Second World War) a Japanese aircraft loaded with explosives and making a deliberate suicidal crash on an enemy target.

 

It seems you need to enlarge your field of comprehension mate.

 

We're not in the WW2, we're 60years later in a video game, and "kamikaze" nowadays refers to ppl who wants to suicide and deal damage at the same time...

[Procrastes]

Didn't "Kamikaze" originally signify "Divine Wind", the name that was given to the sudden storm that scattered the Mongol fleet sent by Genghis Khan, and which saved Japan from invasion?

[ilhilh]

 

 

In that case there goes my credibility too.

 

 I'm never been afraid of a Fuso, as they tend to stay at range. I like to come close and personel with my BB's, when I see a Bayern I think a second time about that. When I see a Fuso I think "Yes !, lets go !"

 

Never asked a CV to take out a Fuso, but when a Bayern is around and a CV is active in that area, I will ask the CV to take out the Bayern.

 

You are talking about how people generally behave in the BBs.  Just because the average potato sits at range in a Fuso doesn't mean that is the only way to play it - it certainly isn't how I play it and I have been very successful in it (both in randoms and ranked the few times I have needed it).